[Blubaron79]

Originally Posted by Musashi

Background: 2x new Japanese cars, 2003-2014. Brother, sis in Law, 3x Japanese. Neighbours? Quite a few..

Little to never, yes, the hyperbola was well chosen. Unless mistaken, you live in NJ right? Well, the average normal person in Canada lives 3-4 months at temperatures of -30 to -10 or no higher than 0-5F. The roads are wet at 0F because of the special chemicals and salts they use. Cars come out blue-white powdered. People desperately take their non-German cars and pay 120+$ annually hoping to extend the life of their car. But unless you see what the salt does to cars here, - they ROT- you are speaking from an island. The sub-chassis rots. Suspension links. Arms. Wheelbay. Calipers. Rotors. Each one of these 500+ every 2-3 years.

When they do offer 4 years perforation in Canada, it means in 4 years you get perforation.They mean it down to engineering medians and means... Not a month more. They have rust recalls for brand new Hondas straight from factory. No galvanization etc. Washed and babied them and I got awesome life. But rust is there- just contained. Or repaired at cost.

So your 15 year Accord is not even one winter to us- or 1000 hours of constant corrosive exposure.

Exceptions: BMW, Volvo, Audi, and a few select German cars seem, quite frankly immune. Asked the owners, checked, and that is what got me into the science of it.

After 5 years, to bring my Civic to spec (impeccably maintained, waxed, rustproofed and 1+ more weekly washed underneath etc) rust related expenses were over 7000$ (suspension arms, two rotor sets lost two winters AND one door perforation rust worth 3500$ luckily covered by a gimmick perforation plan when I bought the car new). My 2006 Civic (donated to my mom) is still seen as a phenomenon with 180 000 miles and so little rust. But hey- upgraded rotors, arms and more with GT grade stuff and higher tensile steels!!!!

10 yr Accords visible? yes- but my point: you see none or ZERO without significant issues. The climate is the aging catalyst exposing the design philosophy of a Pacific Ocean warmed Japanese coastline. You can drive two weeks in slush, park it another two going on a trip, and, coming back, the rotors are seized and rustblending with the pads. Calipers just seize. 1 seized means both brakesets need replacing. often rotors too. 700$. Common occurrence. Seen it happen to me, and people with cars as little as a few hundred kms of ownership. And climate is the ultimate auto catalyst test-bed. In Canada, the Japanese engine will last 10 years, everything else becomes a problem. Google it and you will find answers. Does not mean that in NJ Japanese are not reliable. Not at all. Just that, in terms of raw quality comparison, the difference is significant. From phased steel to galvanization, and many other industrial realities. They say 12 years perforation for Audi and BMW- with minimal maintenance. With maintenance, some get 15 yrs before a first rust spot. Not perforation. Point is, it is impossible with any Japanese brand. My climate exposes the weakness and quality difference.

So it is your reality so insular, and not representative to generalize on quality. Cannot use Tom NJ as the epicenter for data sampling. Europe- N Europe- check out Japanese sales and Europeans are both frugal and reliability driven. Japanese have virtually no market. Cannot break in. Or come up north in Montreal and check up the cars. Rusty Japanese cars go to the poor working class neighborhoods. Middle class buys new again. Upper class generally goes German these days.

Yes, BMW has its flaws, but I would rather maintain quality than repairing mediocrity. Would you not?

Just because the Japanese shinken steel is the result of one of the world's best artistic functional and nearly un-matched craft, it does not mean their cars are anything on par to the same philosophy. It is about sales, not quality. And why even the Koreans caught up and are buying German engineers. Koreans are not too proud to admit being inferior in order to evolve. Japanese are. Are the Germans really left them behind- think VW mid 2015 - if not for one cheat.

So to summarize: German cars don't rust due to road salt and Japanese cars do?

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Blubaron79

So to summarize: German cars don't rust due to road salt and Japanese cars do?

That and " Its hard to get lexus parts from anywhere but the dealer " and " Honda & Toyota motors only last 10 years "

OP close thread please this has gone way off topic..

[hollandog]

saw a RC-F on the street. looked real hard and finally realized it's the $80k RC-F.
sorry it just doesn't look like a car in that price range.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by Labeef

Since this thread has been around for a little while. Lexus, let's compare sales/lease figures.

I find it funny that Toyota and BMW are developing a sports car together.

Not quite: BMW is making the Toyota-badged sports car, and Toyota sharing with BMW the hybrid tech. Toyota cannot make 6cyl plus engines no more than Honda proved being unable the last season in F1...

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by Blubaron79

So to summarize: German cars don't rust due to road salt and Japanese cars do?

Yes. The cold-pressed, heat-pressed, German pressed/phased high strength steel going back 150+ yrs of war making/Rheinmetal, a league of its own, corrosion-resistant. Once assembled as a frame, they add then the galvanization. Japanese? Cheap light, thin, simple-process soft steel; not galvanized- although Lexus may have corrosion inhibiting paint- first ding begins rusting immediately.. Last winter noticed a metal ding- passed all winter on my BMW- metal was shiny. No rust despite 6 months of salt. Read on German steel and then research on how much the Japanese charge for a low quality job with 50,000$ Acuras:

http://www.acme.pwr.wroc.pl/repository/196/online.pdf (also attached)

Take that metallurgy as a whole, the chassis, as well as the engine block, and hence the 5k-10000$ difference in cost between the Mercedes/Audi/BMW and the Japanese. Brakes as well- unless they put German/Italian brakes on the Japanese, the standard Japanese brakes are just waiting to fail at some unpredictable point. Swedish steel is also legendary. 13th C ship making, then 19th C railroads, HQ steel designed to expand and contract in Arctic winters,never fail with a train passing on top, why Volvos are the top rated for steel quality and the UK buying Swedish steel:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...wedish-6718098

As if not enough, German auto steel got better at all the above starting with the e90 series; lighter, stronger, non-corrosive...Pressured, Japanese reduced further their steel quality to compete with US and KOR companies...Japanese want to sell quantity, and design cars for their climate and short-life-cycle (7-10 yrs), while posing them as North American ready. Germans design cars for cold Alpine and European winters, and why you see so many sporty Germans still driven after 15 yrs. But they need a bit more maintenance.

I think Nissan and Lexus make great sports cars, in some ways a bit more reliable, but best if kept in a friendly climate, not exposed to rain, and driven only a few summer months. Last F1 season and Honda proved how inept a top rated company was at designing a 6cyl performance engine after ditching the 6cyl R&D. Toyota is the same. They don't care about it, but pretend sports crowns.

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by Musashi

Not quite: BMW is making the Toyota-badged sports car, and Toyota sharing with BMW the hybrid tech. Toyota cannot make 6cyl plus engines no more than Honda proved being unable the last season in F1...

That's way out of line what you just said about Honda.

Honda has one of the most storied traditions and history in F1 racing.

Last year was the first year, believe that they'll be back with a vengeance. They've got the drivers, McLaren design, and Honda engineering. Can't keep a combo like that down for long.

The Toyota parter ship with BMW is questionable, but I think the new Z5 will be a hit. As much as I hate Toyota, I do respect their hybrid tech.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

That's way out of line what you just said about Honda.

Honda has one of the most storied traditions and history in F1 racing.

Last year was the first year, believe that they'll be back with a vengeance. They've got the drivers, McLaren design, and Honda engineering. Can't keep a combo like that down for long.

The Toyota parter ship with BMW is questionable, but I think the new Z5 will be a hit. As much as I hate Toyota, I do respect their hybrid tech.

Had. Past. It would be good for the sport if they actually become competitive- looking at the Mercedes dominated Australian GP lineup (Hamilton and Rosberg), it is booring.

Honda engineering is passable at best. In fact, they likely have F1 hired engineering (Europeans), but, unlike BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, Porsche, Audi or Renault there is no link between the Honda F1 motorsport racing and their automotive engine divisions. They had. Past. Their F1 stint is for marketing. Their F1 or F3 designers are for F1/F3. Whereas the giants have a clear organic link between high performance engineering and, ultimately, their production vehicles.

Honda used to have it and left that mindset. Like Pontiac. Pan Am. They have a culture problem - and this is both expert opinion as well as that of Honda bosses. They were born, grew, and decayed. Current pursuit for viability, profit margin and competition with Koreans and Big 3 has had them get rid of everything that made them cutting edge at some point.

Still drive my immaculate old Civic. Brings back many fond memories, but I still look at it as the past.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/24/bu...-ito.html?_r=0

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ter-ceo-switch

So vengeance? I find it impossible. Its culture is neither quality nor performance oriented. Hierarchical, patronal, senior-oriented, from Europe to Japan HQ, it smell decay. They can't design a good chassis, high performance alloys, and all the things that matter to connoisseurs because they now cater, as one Honda Canada salesperson pushing a new Civic/Accord, towards "the new generation just entering the job market with modest means." All they do is reliability- and engine that can run 500 000 miles while everything around it rots every few years- chassis, panels, sub-chassis, paint, brake disks, callipers (2.5 yrs average for Canadian winters), suspension and more.

TIn F1, they are trying to design what they do not believe in. Can you imagine what Mercedes, BMW or Audi would look like if they had the same philosophy?

"Power of dreams." Outselling KIA. LMAO - not at you, but their culture. And a fully equipped Civic is as much as a base 3series or a CPO with low mileage.. ?!?

Took my mother about 15 hrs worth fo phone calls to convince Honda to re-paint her car's oxidizing, peeling-off paint. Immaculate any other way. In the US they had a class action lawsuit that solved it for Americans. In Canada they gave her the runaround. Yes, appointment, No, Yes again, appointment, No, and, finally, they gave her the repaint. Not to mention the car had a paint recall from factory but only for the hood and fenders. Car looked like a Canadian sunburnt in Mexico.

Welcome to disagree. You will agree end of 2016. And, if by miracle, they do score a couple of descent points, none of it will mean anything for their auto sector. Just because a former Honda CEO realizes they need to get into it, does not mean Honda knows what that means.

+1 to your Toyota/BMW comment. But let's be pragmatic: BMW is designing Toyota's supercar, from chassis to engine, and it will be the Bavarian's test bed for the much rumoured BMW supercar. In return, the Bavarians also get the hybrid technology required for for its i series. Toyota gains marketing value- they have no mass-production use for the Z5 technology, as their corporate philosophy also competes with bottom baseline pricing. So you can't use BMW grade cold or heat plated steel in your Camry or Corolla, or carbon fibre panels. Too expensive.