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      01-11-2013, 12:41 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
there's a lot of personal opinion here, so here's mine.

The 335i can't compete with the S4 because the price difference is nearly $8k (335xi M Sport vs. S4).
Go on bmwusa.com

BMW X Drive 335i w/ M Sport = $48,350
Metallic Paint + $550
Real Leather + $1250
Heated Front Seats +$500
Destination + $895
=$51,745


go on audiusa.com

Audi S4 = $47,600
Metallic Paint + 475
Real Nappa Leather is Standard w/Alcantara Inserts, but if you want Full Nappa, its $1250
Heated Seats: Standard
Destination +$895
=$48,970 w Standard Inserts, Full Inserts $50,220


As stated in a previous thread, I would get a 328 over an A4, but if i want more power, I would get an S4 over a 335i.
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      01-11-2013, 12:50 PM   #68
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[quote=Blake P;13274040] IMO, AoA is completely interested in mass market sales growth and has forgotten about the enthusiasts who helped make the brand what it is becoming in the US today. QUOTE]

Agree & Disagree at the same time.

Agree: They are interested in mass markets, but not in the U.S. Do you know how much it cost an Audi in other countries vs the U.S? Other places are paying 3-4x more for the exact same car. So they're shifting focus to China etc. So you are right in that direction.

Disagree: Audi has not forgotten about the enthusiast, but they are skeptical. They prefer feedback first. For example, when facebook users asked for the TTRS to be brought into the U.S, they did just that. Manual only to the U.S too I believe. 0-60 in 3.6 with an MSRP of $58K is a sick bargain imho. Audi also listened and finally brought the RS5 to the U.S as well.
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      01-11-2013, 02:18 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceking4u View Post
Go on bmwusa.com

BMW X Drive 335i w/ M Sport = $48,350
Metallic Paint + $550
Real Leather + $1250
Heated Front Seats +$500
Destination + $895
=$51,745


go on audiusa.com

Audi S4 = $47,600
Metallic Paint + 475
Real Nappa Leather is Standard w/Alcantara Inserts, but if you want Full Nappa, its $1250
Heated Seats: Standard
Destination +$895
=$48,970 w Standard Inserts, Full Inserts $50,220


As stated in a previous thread, I would get a 328 over an A4, but if i want more power, I would get an S4 over a 335i.
that's not the S4 premium line. that's what i was referring to.
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      01-11-2013, 02:55 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
that's not the S4 premium line. that's what i was referring to.
If you get the Prestige Model on the S4...

It comes with:

+Navi & BackupCame
+Adaptive Headlights
+B & O Sound System
+Side Assist (Detect Cars Near By)
=$55,520 without Inserts, $56,470 with full Nappa inserts


so you gotta price your 335xi Sedan accordingly as well
+Adjusted Price Technology Package -BMW Apps (for Navi + Iphone) = $3100-250 = $2850
+Premium Package (Since Audi has Lumbar + Sirius) +$2200
+Harmon +875
+Rear View + Park Distance ($1150)
+Heated Seats 500

= $57,620


BMW 335i same build (taking out AWD): $55,620
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      01-11-2013, 03:07 PM   #71
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agree... the S4 and the BMW 335i are about the same price, if you compare apples to apples, i.e. an M-Sport and Xdrive. You can get a 335i stripper for much cheaper, but I don't think it's a direct competitor to the S4.

If there is one thing that has not been addressed in this thread about Audi vs. BMW marketing, it is that Audi clearly positions the S4 as upmarket, as its starting price is above that of the BMW. Part of it is because they have to: to get that power to the wheels they have to offer AWD as standard. But part of it is deliberate: they don't offer a base 'premium' trim on the S4, just a 'premium plus' trim.

In this respect I think BMW's strategy is superior, as it caters to a wider audience. And Audi has a tremendous gap in its line-up between the standard A4 (211HP) and the S4 (333HP). This used to be filled by the 3.2 V6 engine, but it has been discontinued in the US (and apparently we won't get its newer 3.0 version).

So there you have it: audi's strategy has been to be more upmarket, and therefore more exclusive, I think, than its BMW counterpart.
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      01-11-2013, 03:13 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceking4u View Post
If you get the Prestige Model on the S4...

It comes with:

+Navi & BackupCame
+Adaptive Headlights
+B & O Sound System
+Side Assist (Detect Cars Near By)
=$55,520 without Inserts, $56,470 with full Nappa inserts


so you gotta price your 335xi Sedan accordingly as well
+Adjusted Price Technology Package -BMW Apps (for Navi + Iphone) = $3100-250 = $2850
+Premium Package (Since Audi has Lumbar + Sirius) +$2200
+Harmon +875
+Rear View + Park Distance ($1150)
+Heated Seats 500

= $57,620


BMW 335i same build (taking out AWD): $55,620
If you buy the S4 then it would be cheaper. However, the lease was much worse. Here is how my comparison worked out

My car
EBII 335 M-Sport Manual
MSPRP: 56,517.73
SELL PRICE: 51,909
REBATE: $1000
DOWNPAYMENT: $1500
TERM: 39
RESIDUAL: 33,910
RATE: 0.00081
ACT FEE: 725
REG/TITLE/TAGS: 258
TAX: 3130
DOC FEE: 399
MONTHLY PAYMENT: $590

COMPARED TO S4 LEASE:

2013 Audi S3 Volcano Red 6sp Prestige with Sport Diff
MSPRP: 56,600
SELL PRICE: 51702 (I was offered 1k below invoice)
REBATE: $0
DOWNPAYMENT: $1500
TERM: 36
RESIDUAL: 32828
RATE: 0.00105
ACT FEE: 695
REG/TITLE/TAGS: 258
TAX: 3117
DOC FEE: 399
MONTHLY PAYMENT: $715

The Audi was $100 more a month. I decided to pass.
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      01-11-2013, 04:19 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisv_335EBII View Post

The Audi was $100 more a month. I decided to pass.
I totally agree. Look at my previous post. Audi doesn't give lease deals. People on this forum keep saying "look at the numbers." No shit BMW is going to outsell Audi, it has more cars, cars are priced $100 cheaper per month, which is great for BMW, but Audi doesn't produce as much as BMW, so there's no incentive for them to offer better lease rates.

Another great example is the Toyota FRS vs The Subaru BRZ. The BRZ is approximately $500-600 month lease with a low residual and the FRS is $350-400 month lease with a high residual. Same car to most people, but just using this as an example.

And since 70% of almost every luxury car is leased, why do you see so many BMWs on the road. A previous user mentioned in the East Coast where Audi may be favored (necessity of AWD), but here in Los Angeles, its about a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio.

Every girl out of college wants a white 3 series or a white c coupe and they can do it because its affordable. I'm not saying the F30/F32 is not a great car, I think its amazing, but don't fall so hard on BMW's numbers.
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      01-11-2013, 04:30 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frencholivier View Post
agree...

In this respect I think BMW's strategy is superior, as it caters to a wider audience. And Audi has a tremendous gap in its line-up between the standard A4 (211HP) and the S4 (333HP). This used to be filled by the 3.2 V6 engine, but it has been discontinued in the US (and apparently we won't get its newer 3.0 version).

So there you have it: audi's strategy has been to be more upmarket, and therefore more exclusive, I think, than its BMW counterpart.
More exclusive is the perception they want to embed in your head and it works IMO. I owned a 2010 S5 and sold it because I was getting 13MPG lol.

I pinned the car as a "tweener" in between a 335i and under an M3.

I also love the fact that there were so few S5 (also S4) in Los Angeles. If you drive in downtown LA or Koreatown or even Beverly Hills, everyone has a BMW/Mercedes.

Audi got rid of the 3.2 V6 on the A4/A5 because it was a stupid car. It was more expensive, and although it was ~53HP more than an A5, the amount of torque an A5 has was identical to a V6, so performance was a fraction (.4 second faster from 0-60 maybe). Audi realized this and got rid of the V6 3.2 quick. However, like some mentioned, now theres a large gap. You either go Big with an S4/S5, or go entry with an A4/A5. Audi is banking on this and theyre sales are better every year when compared to before (this is no secret). It works for them, but it may not work for BMW, which is no big deal.
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      01-11-2013, 04:31 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceking4u View Post
More exclusive is the perception they want to embed in your head and it works IMO. I owned a 2010 S5 and sold it because I was getting 13MPG lol.

I pinned the car as a "tweener" in between a 335i and under an M3.

I also love the fact that there were so few S5 (also S4) in Los Angeles. If you drive in downtown LA or Koreatown or even Beverly Hills, everyone has a BMW/Mercedes.

Audi got rid of the 3.2 V6 on the A4/A5 because it was a stupid car. It was more expensive, and although it was ~53HP more than an A5, the amount of torque an A5 has was identical to a V6, so performance was a fraction (.4 second faster from 0-60 maybe). Audi realized this and got rid of the V6 3.2 quick. However, like some mentioned, now theres a large gap. You either go Big with an S4/S5, or go entry with an A4/A5. Audi is banking on this and theyre sales are better every year when compared to before (this is no secret). It works for them, but it may not work for BMW, which is no big deal.
They are getting more sales because of pricing. Pricing, incentives etc is part of a marketing strategy. The numbers suggest that BMW is doing better with their marketing.
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      01-11-2013, 04:49 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisv_335EBII View Post
They are getting more sales because of pricing. Pricing, incentives etc is part of a marketing strategy. The numbers suggest that BMW is doing better with their marketing.
Chrisy: Do you consider "Better Marketing" with total volume only? Its a hard thing to measure IMO. If its in total volume, are you suggesting BMW is better in the following ways:

If you can send 30,000 BMW 3 series Annually to the US and capable of offering leases for $500 a month....w/ 24,000 units sold, is this better OR

If you can send 12,000 Audi A4/A5 Annually (low production) to the US and capable of offering leases for $600 a month w/ 10,000 units sold.

Make no mistake about it. BMW needs to "market" their cars $100 cheaper. They have a very high production here in the US, and cars needs to be moved cheaper and faster than the competition. Audi could conceivably enter into a price war, but they wouldn't have the inventory left to sell, so that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. Like the OP mentioned, a diff marketing approach has to be made. Not from pricing, but from the car, the brand, and buyer's perspective. So sales figure of vehicles sold is not an adequate measure IMO.
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      01-11-2013, 04:58 PM   #77
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I had not realized we were talking about lease rates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aceking4u View Post
Every girl out of college wants a white 3 series or a white c coupe and they can do it because its affordable. I'm not saying the F30/F32 is not a great car, I think its amazing, but don't fall so hard on BMW's numbers.
Boy do I feel special now with my PhD. Welcome to America to me.
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      01-11-2013, 05:02 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceking4u View Post
Chrisy: Do you consider "Better Marketing" with total volume only? Its a hard thing to measure IMO. If its in total volume, are you suggesting BMW is better in the following ways:

If you can send 30,000 BMW 3 series Annually to the US and capable of offering leases for $500 a month....w/ 24,000 units sold, is this better OR

If you can send 12,000 Audi A4/A5 Annually (low production) to the US and capable of offering leases for $600 a month w/ 10,000 units sold.

Make no mistake about it. BMW needs to "market" their cars $100 cheaper. They have a very high production here in the US, and cars needs to be moved cheaper and faster than the competition. Audi could conceivably enter into a price war, but they wouldn't have the inventory left to sell, so that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. Like the OP mentioned, a diff marketing approach has to be made. Not from pricing, but from the car, the brand, and buyer's perspective. So sales figure of vehicles sold is not an adequate measure IMO.
AceyHoneyBoBoo, BMW can sell less cars and increase the price as well. BMW is doing the overall package better than Audi right now. That much is a fact.
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      01-11-2013, 05:08 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frencholivier View Post
I had not realized we were talking about lease rates.


Boy do I feel special now with my PhD. Welcome to America to me.
Congratulation on your PHD. I wasn't trying to belittle anyone on this forum. I was simply stating that cars are price similar and BMW sales figures are a result of offering lower lease rates. BMW has a very high production in the US so they need to offer lease prices in order to move vehicles more quickly. Especially w almost all luxury vehicles being lease nowadays, the lower monthly cost is what the consumers are glued to. You can buy Car A and Car B for nearly identical prices as mentioned in previous post, but if you want to lease it, BMW is cheaper....and since most people are leasing, a lot of people are going to be more attracted to a BMW.
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      01-11-2013, 05:14 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisv_335EBII View Post
AceyHoneyBoBoo, BMW can sell less cars and increase the price as well. BMW is doing the overall package better than Audi right now. That much is a fact.
+1

You're right BMW is doing better than Audi. That is a fact.
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      01-11-2013, 05:28 PM   #81
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BMW is selling twice as many cars as Audi....that's a Fact

but BMW net income difference is about 10.52% greater than Audi AG (compared to BMW AG)

http://www.hoovers.com/company-infor...154c11dcb.html

http://www.hoovers.com/company-infor...19c14cd66.html

Again, I'm only agreeing with the OP. Audi's marketing strategy is different. It works for them and BMW works for theirs as well. Audi is making bigger gains (look at 2010 to 2011 for both companies). Audi's strategy is working "close" enough to achieve BMW like figures without having to double their sales.
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      01-11-2013, 05:47 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceking4u View Post
Common Man. The 335i doesn't even come standard with real leather.The reason why the S4 cost more than the 335i is because it starts off with more premium features. You still have to pay for heated seats (in a 335) and other things as well.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
It does take a decent amount of option clicking and money to make a 335 very similar to an S4, and you can't make an S4 similar to the standard 335. The gap is enough that I don't see the common consumer automatically comparison shopping when looking at the 335.

Btw, there are more recent comparisons of the S4 and 335, ones that include the current generation 3 series.
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      01-11-2013, 06:46 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batislav View Post
It does take a decent amount of option clicking and money to make a 335 very similar to an S4, and you can't make an S4 similar to the standard 335. The gap is enough that I don't see the common consumer automatically comparison shopping when looking at the 335.

Btw, there are more recent comparisons of the S4 and 335, ones that include the current generation 3 series.
Absolutely. http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=705018
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      01-11-2013, 07:55 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisv_335EBII View Post
If you buy the S4 then it would be cheaper. However, the lease was much worse. Here is how my comparison worked out

My car
EBII 335 M-Sport Manual
MSPRP: 56,517.73
SELL PRICE: 51,909
REBATE: $1000
DOWNPAYMENT: $1500
TERM: 39
RESIDUAL: 33,910
RATE: 0.00081
ACT FEE: 725
REG/TITLE/TAGS: 258
TAX: 3130
DOC FEE: 399
MONTHLY PAYMENT: $590

COMPARED TO S4 LEASE:

2013 Audi S3 Volcano Red 6sp Prestige with Sport Diff
MSPRP: 56,600
SELL PRICE: 51702 (I was offered 1k below invoice)
REBATE: $0
DOWNPAYMENT: $1500
TERM: 36
RESIDUAL: 32828
RATE: 0.00105
ACT FEE: 695
REG/TITLE/TAGS: 258
TAX: 3117
DOC FEE: 399
MONTHLY PAYMENT: $715

The Audi was $100 more a month. I decided to pass.

yeah my financing numbers didn't add up when I looked at the S4...the 335i was much more attractive.

HOWEVER, i wasn't apples to apples, I wanted a RWD 335i, so....
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      01-11-2013, 08:00 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceking4u View Post
BMW is selling twice as many cars as Audi....that's a Fact

but BMW net income difference is about 10.52% greater than Audi AG (compared to BMW AG)

http://www.hoovers.com/company-infor...154c11dcb.html

http://www.hoovers.com/company-infor...19c14cd66.html

Again, I'm only agreeing with the OP. Audi's marketing strategy is different. It works for them and BMW works for theirs as well. Audi is making bigger gains (look at 2010 to 2011 for both companies). Audi's strategy is working "close" enough to achieve BMW like figures without having to double their sales.
I didn't know that's what we were debating.

Of course Audi's strategy is different than BMW's.

For any business, the point is to create VALUE for the customers by highlighting their competitive advantages from the "rest of the crowd."

Audi offers:
squeak and rattle free interiors
boring exteriors
awd
meh handing

BMW offers:
boring interiors
sexy exteriors
multiple transmissions
sexy handling...

Each will highlight their strength in comparison to the others in their competitive class because...everybody focuses on what they're good at, lol!
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      01-11-2013, 10:49 PM   #86
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I read those financials quite differently. I see that in 2011 BMW had a revenue 50% larger than Audi's but BMW only had a 10% advantage in net income. To me that looks like a large company slowing down and a newer company more profitable.

Not trying to say anything about the "marketing" of either brand here, nor trying to make any inference as to what car is better. Just trying to get a correct reading of the financials.
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      01-11-2013, 10:59 PM   #87
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Funny... My perception of the Audi A4 is quality interior and safe handling. The exterior is a bit too "polished pebble" to me. Overall the A4 calls for trendy but responsible family man.

My perception of the 3 series is performance handling and engines. More unique than Audi but also much more prone to rattles and crazy annoying flaws (squealing brakes!). The interior is goodlooking but exterior is overly sporty or dated (cliché). Overall i have more the impression of boy racer toy or daddy's spoiled daughter.

Again, just my opinion. (Ah, if BMWs made a bit more subdued exteriors and better quality interiors...).
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