[CKau]

Originally Posted by TonyS

Having checked my own car I can see exactly what you mean - that doesn't look right at all. Apart from the noise issue, surely all sorts of muck/water could get into the engine bay through that big hole?

Did you take the wheel off to get the soundproofing into place - it looks quite tricky to get to from either side?

Also, you said you left the backing paper on the adhesive side, so how exactly did you get it to stay in place?

I simply turned the wheel to full lock on the left (as the left tower on the RHD version is affectd).

As for it holding in its place, I cut a slit in the padding and that metal bar I was referring to holds it into place along with the sill inside the engine bay that is situated directly beneath the hole. You can see the slit in the pic.

Originally Posted by Frogman

Can you post some pictures of what you did between the top of the dash and inside of the windshield?

I don't see a gap here on my car.

Did this or the wheel well mod provide the most improvement?

Thanks for posting this! I too have noticed that the "wind noise" seems to increase (and decrease) based one the road conditions and never correlated it with road noise. Nice work!

In Australia our days are getting shorter, so probably won't get a decent photo until the weekend. Covering the hole in the suspension tower resulted in the biggest improvement.


Originally when I sat in the front passenger seat (prior to the fix), I felt that the passenger side was less noisy than the driver's side. That's what lead to my discovery. However, last night when I went for another drive, I sat in the passenger and noticed more road noise relative to the (now fixed) driver's side. So I probably need to sound proof the right front suspension tower hole even though it is shielded.

Originally Posted by martyp

LOL... you know you're a die hard BMW fan when you take "reducing road and wind noise" issues into your own hands.

No, I'm new to the brand. A die hard fan is one who says to suck it up & turn up the radio. No way am I in that category. I'm definitely no blind BMW apologist unlike a lot of folks on this forum.

If anything, I've cautioning ppl about buying BMW, considering the way they have treated me.

Originally Posted by martyp

You guys don't think the manufacturer should be fixing these problems instead of us?

Yes, absolutely. However, in the wind noise thread, someone wisely pointed out this issue is very subjective. Even techs might have bad hearing / be comparing the BMW to their own noisy DD. They also went on to say that unless you point out a physical flaw, complaining is futile.

Unfortunately based on my experiences with 2 techs from 2 separate dealerships who found no issue, I totally agree with that poster and therefore I reasoned I had to take matters into my own hands.

Besides the hole, I can also complain about the missed rubber spray, misaligned passenger door, and misaligned sunroof. These are physical defects they can see and therefore fix.

Originally Posted by martyp

If you think I'm going to be crawling on my hands and knees to reduce wind noise in my car... If I was BMW, I'd be embarrassed to sit back and watch my customers find ways to fix themselves what should have been non existent from the factory to begin with.

Sad fact of life, but you need to help yourself sometimes as other ppl will never give a cr@p about your own car as much as you will.

I'm hands on & don't have a "Jeeves" to do stuff for me :-P Anyway, this seems to be less painful than the process of selling my car and buying an equivalently spec'ed Audi / MB which will be even more expensive than my current vehicle (not to mention the changeover costs). It's the only reason I'm hanging in there!

Originally Posted by martyp

I should have paid more attention to this when purchasing my current F30.

Hear hear... same with me!

Having said that, I think the 18 inch wheels & larger generate less noise which is why I didn't pick it up before. I find that demo vehicles are always one of the "lines". It may be that the diameter of the wheel carries the tyre outside the hole, whereas smaller @ss wheels like the 17 inch on mine overlap with the hole? Either that or the shape of the standard alloys are more noisey??


I'd be interested to know if those who claim to have no noise issues have the rubber sealant present in the area where mine are absent (see pic below)



In closing, when I drove home tonight, I really enjoyed the quiet! I can hear talkback radio clearly, bass tones in music... the car is now awesome!

[TonyS]

Originally Posted by CKau

I simply turned the wheel to full lock on the left (as the left tower on the RHD version is affectd).

As for it holding in its place, I cut a slit in the padding and that metal bar I was referring to holds it into place along with the sill inside the engine bay that is situated directly beneath the hole. You can see the slit in the pic.

Ah, ok - understood. Cheers for that.

[Frogman]

So, I thought I'd play around with this a bit as the wind and road noise in my car still seem excessive to me.

My dealer says it is silent after the last repair (they replaced the window seals) and it is much better than before, but it's not anywhere near quiet as I would like it.

As stated before, noise sensitivity is very subjective. Sometimes the car does seem silent, and sometimes it sounds like I'm in a wind tunnel. It's not consistent at all to me. That could either be the car, or me, I don't know. I don't have any way of quantitatively measuring the noise level.

So, I just parked with the wheels full-left (I did not remove the wheels) and this is what I see from the outside between the tire and the body on the left-front side of the car:



There is an trapezoidal opening with a flange at the bottom. It's strange that all of the other assembly holes have grommets except this. I checked realoem to see if I could find a part that goes here, but I couldn't find anything definite. The black "bar" is definitely the brake line coming from the engine compartment.

So, I took some medium density furniture foam that I had laying around and shaped and slit it to size:



Then I just stuffed it in the hole with the brake line fitting into the slit. It fits nicely against the flange at the bottom.



The foam will allow the brake line to move if it has too (it's pretty solidly mounted as it is) and I didn't see where that hole would be used for any kind of ventilation.

The hole also exists on the right side of the car, but it's blocked by an exhaust heat shield mounted in the engine compartment. I put another piece of foam there too:



(I later took this one out because I'm worried that the exhaust heat, even with the heat shield might melt/or ignite the foam).

Results: Well, the road noise does seem to be reduced some, but it's not as night and day as the results that CKau got. I need to drive it some more. Also, I didn't do anything with the windshield yet.

My main source of wind noise still seems to be coming from the top of the B-Pillar, so I don't think it was coming in from the engine compartment. It's really hard to isolate the source sound while driving.

Everything at the B-Pillar seems well sealed and I've tried taping the area and it doesn't help. I guess I'll just keep the radio turned up!

[TonyS]

Originally Posted by Frogman

So, I thought I'd play around with this a bit as the wind and road noise in my car still seem excessive to me.

Thanks for those pictures, that shows it well. I wonder if you'd find more noise reduction with something more like CKau used (compressed wool), rather than foam?

I will definitely have to have a go at this myself.

[Frogman]

Originally Posted by TonyS

Thanks for those pictures, that shows it well. I wonder if you'd find more noise reduction with something more like CKau used (compressed wool), rather than foam?

I will definitely have to have a go at this myself.

I would think that foam would be a pretty good sound insulator. It's squished in there fairly tightly so it won't come out.

I may try the 1/8" compressed wool or something else that is a little more heat resistant just to see if there is any difference.

[f1swk]

as its air bourne sound, foam will not be much good on is own,it needs a dampening layer,try adding a bit of mass loaded vinyl to the inside of the foam

[CKau]

Originally Posted by Frogman

So, I just parked with the wheels full-left (I did not remove the wheels) and this is what I see from the outside between the tire and the body on the left-front side of the car:

Mate, that's awesome that you tried something and also posted pics.

Your photo gives me the sh1ts... Not your fault, but your opening is smaller than the one in my car. I noticed BMW have places a metal sheet to cover most of the aperture. So i would not expect as a big an improvement in results... Or out another way, your problem is not as bad as mine.

It also leads me to believe that the hole does nothing for cooling.... Maybe it is larger for australia because we are considered a hot weather country which might also explain why so many malaysian and singaporean owners are upset.... Who knows??

Trust me, my car was woeful.... Even with the volume turned up i couldnt make out any talking on the radio unless it was really, really loud. It was shameful. Mybcar was bad. I mean baaaad!

As for the material itself, it does need to be high density material. I used two socks wound up tight for the initial test. This condensed wool gave even better results.

Thanks again for the pic and good on you for getting out there!

[TonyS]

Originally Posted by CKau

Mate, that's awesome that you tried something and also posted pics.

Your photo gives me the sh1ts... Not your fault, but your opening is smaller than the one in my car. I noticed BMW have places a metal sheet to cover most of the aperture. So i would not expect as a big an improvement in results... Or out another way, your problem is not as bad as mine.

I've just had a closer look at my car and it's the same as Frogman's - mine is an August 2012 build, by the way - so maybe I won't get the same improvement as you've seen. Still going to try it and see though.

[bluemark81]

Originally Posted by Frogman

So, I thought I'd play around with this a bit as the wind and road noise in my car still seem excessive to me.

My dealer says it is silent after the last repair (they replaced the window seals) and it is much better than before, but it's not anywhere near quiet as I would like it.

As stated before, noise sensitivity is very subjective. Sometimes the car does seem silent, and sometimes it sounds like I'm in a wind tunnel. It's not consistent at all to me. That could either be the car, or me, I don't know. I don't have any way of quantitatively measuring the noise level.

So, I just parked with the wheels full-left (I did not remove the wheels) and this is what I see from the outside between the tire and the body on the left-front side of the car:



There is an trapezoidal opening with a flange at the bottom. It's strange that all of the other assembly holes have grommets except this. I checked realoem to see if I could find a part that goes here, but I couldn't find anything definite. The black "bar" is definitely the brake line coming from the engine compartment.

So, I took some medium density furniture foam that I had laying around and shaped and slit it to size:



Then I just stuffed it in the hole with the brake line fitting into the slit. It fits nicely against the flange at the bottom.



The foam will allow the brake line to move if it has too (it's pretty solidly mounted as it is) and I didn't see where that hole would be used for any kind of ventilation.

The hole also exists on the right side of the car, but it's blocked by an exhaust heat shield mounted in the engine compartment. I put another piece of foam there too:



(I later took this one out because I'm worried that the exhaust heat, even with the heat shield might melt/or ignite the foam).

Results: Well, the road noise does seem to be reduced some, but it's not as night and day as the results that CKau got. I need to drive it some more. Also, I didn't do anything with the windshield yet.

My main source of wind noise still seems to be coming from the top of the B-Pillar, so I don't think it was coming in from the engine compartment. It's really hard to isolate the source sound while driving.

Everything at the B-Pillar seems well sealed and I've tried taping the area and it doesn't help. I guess I'll just keep the radio turned up!

Your b-pillar wind noise is probably the same as mine. I can definitely muffle mine by placing a rag or glove in the upper corner along the b-pillar while driving. i got my car back today from the dealer investigating this issue. The door seals were not replaced but they say they adjusted the doors and windows. I will say the wind noise is not as obtrusive as it was previously but I still believe there is room for improvement. What I do notice now is that the passenger side wind noise seems to be more obvious now that the drivers side is reduced. I can probably live with it now anyway. Passing vehicles are now muffled and don't sound as though the door is ajar or window is ajar. Based on this makes me believe there is a fine line between good and bad with regards to getting the adjustments just right.

[Frogman]

Originally Posted by bluemark81

Your b-pillar wind noise is probably the same as mine. I can definitely muffle mine by placing a rag or glove in the upper corner along the b-pillar while driving. i got my car back today from the dealer investigating this issue. The door seals were not replaced but they say they adjusted the doors and windows. I will say the wind noise is not as obtrusive as it was previously but I still believe there is room for improvement. What I do notice now is that the passenger side wind noise seems to be more obvious now that the drivers side is reduced. I can probably live with it now anyway. Passing vehicles are now muffled and don't sound as though the door is ajar or window is ajar. Based on this makes me believe there is a fine line between good and bad with regards to getting the adjustments just right.

Interesting.

I have noticed that when closed, the back of both front doors are not flush with the front of the back doors. The fronts stick out about 2mm. It's not very much, but it may not take much to let air in and make noise.

I've also never had the "hard to close" issue with the doors that some people have complained about; they latch solidly with a fairly light touch.

I'll have my service guy look at them and have them adjusted next time.

[CKau]

The gains were not enough for me to merely cover up the little aperture in the suspension strut. I was still very unhappy with the overall level of road noise. I have licked it and it was so simple in hindsight… but required a lot of inspiration to solve!

Synopsis:

In brief
Root cause: thin plastic wheel arch

The fix:
- Shroud thin wheel arch plastic with carpet
- Plug gaps from wheel arch to cabin with a sock
- Tape over chassis gaps in front of the doors

Let me explain in detail…

I decided to tackle the flimsy plastic wheel arch.


I noticed some F30s in the dealer lot have harder plastic, but the plastic on my wheel arch is so thin you can press from the underside and see the indent you are making in the engine bay side. I estimate it is only 1mm thick.

Can’t believe that with all the underbody soundproofing that BMW seriously dropped the ball on this & put some really cheap thin plastic rubbish. I checked out the wheel arches of a C250 and no surprise, the entire wheel arch is shrouded in the sound deadening material.

BMW went really cheap & only covered half the wheel arch! BMW also leave large tracts of sheet metal in the wheel arch well exposed where Mercedes Benz will even cover the area behind the strut.

Because the plastic is so thin, I thought of the wheel arch as akin to a ringing bell. Like a ringing bell, I thought the problem boiled down to the following issues:

1. Reverberation: the noise vibration generated by the contact patch with the road reverberates around the wheel well much like a bell does after the clapper hits the housing
2. Noise Transmision: the plastic itself will vibrate and transmit road roar from the contact patch

Basically I wanted to solve the reverberation issue. My logic was to supplement the plastic arch with the sound deadening that BMW should have used in the first instance.

At first I achieved some reduction by placing some carpet. I used the screws (see photo) to hold the carpet in place. The issue I faced was in the wet road roar was actually worse. My theory is that as the carpet gets saturated with water, it stops becoming absorbent and starts becoming reflective – thus adding to the reverberation.



I gave up this tack. I would ideally like to use the same sound deadening that all car manufacturers use, but I cannot seem to source it easily from general or car hardware stores.

I then turned my attention to stopping noise transmission.

For this, I decided to shroud the engine bay side of the plastic wheel arch with carpet that I bought from a hardware store (one side is felt, the other side the wiry carpet material). I achieved noticeable reductions when I shrouded the exposed area marked attempt #1. I was quite stoked as I eliminated the “aeroplane fuselage” noise at speeds of 40km/h and above.



However, I still wasn’t happy. I was wondering why the engine was so hushed yet the road roar was still entering the cabin. The gasket running between the suspension towers behind the engine gave me a clue.

I inspected the space between the fender panels and suspension tower underneath the gasket. I discovered that it was hollow and unfilled !!!

That lead me to shroud the other side of the frame (marked attempt #2) with carpet. I also shoved two rolled up socks between the wheel arch and frame where the hollow is under the gasket (see photo above).

If there was an unfilled channel from where I placed the sock, I thought wtf is happening at the door frame? As you can see from the photo below, there is NO sound proofing whatsoever. BMW left the gap wide open where the fender panel meets the cabin panel (photo of right front door)




I was dismayed. It was like BMW has allowed road roar to be channelled from their flimsy plastic piece of cr@p arch, through the side of the fend, and pipe that road roar directly to the frigging doors!!! When I took a look at some VWs, I noticed VW sound proof this gap with foam.

So I likewise proceeded to fill in this gap with some self adhesive foam tape. The red square is where I placed the same self adhesive high density wool I used to block the suspension turret aperture.



(note: this photo might be confusing as this is now the photo of the left front door)

Now when I drive the car, it is soo hushed!!! I felt I had to share this with other long suffering owners.

Looking back, it all made sense as to why I thought the wing mirrors were generating wind noise. It was simply the transmission of noise through the plastic being piped to the doors giving the impression it was a design issue with the wing mirrors. In fact, it’s all down to the sh1tty material BMW have selected for the wheel arch & lack of sound deadening.

Anyway, hope this helps others who have issues.

Btw, I had improved results yet again when the service centre adjusted my front passenger door. The door was jutting out from the rear door to the tune of 2mm. By closing it flush, I no longer hear cars on the passenger side of the vehicle.

I also noticed the sunroof had an ever so slight pinch on the front seal, but the rear seal lay flat. They adjusted the sunroof and now driving through tunnels is more hushed. I no longer hear the overhead exhaust extractor fans clearly.

I was chuffed with this improvement and it’s all thanks to contributors on this forum. My service centre failed to diagnose the door & sunroof misalignment. It took your contributions & my application of that knowledge to solve the issue… so thanks all !

[ft1338]

Excellent work CKau... And disappointed in BMW. I wish they were reading this. You should consider sending them your fix...

[Frogman]

Very nice! I looked at mine and have the same gaps and thin plastic wheel wells.

The previous fix on the hole in the wheel well helped a bit, but I still get significant "whooshing" sounds. I was almost resigned to living with the noise. Now there's more hope!

I guess you know what I'll be doing this weekend...

Thanks for your diligence on this.

[Elk]

Wonderful work and excellent instructions.

[pcbrew]

Originally Posted by CKau

...

At first I achieved some reduction by placing some carpet. I used the screws (see photo) to hold the carpet in place. The issue I faced was in the wet road roar was actually worse. My theory is that as the carpet gets saturated with water, it stops becoming absorbent and starts becoming reflective – thus adding to the reverberation.

I gave up this tack. I would ideally like to use the same sound deadening that all car manufacturers use, but I cannot seem to source it easily from general or car hardware stores.

I then turned my attention to stopping noise transmission.
...

CKau,

This is great work, but the description above describes your journey of discovery.
I would like to understand what you finally ended up with and if you have any assessment as to overall effectiveness of various fixes.

One reason I am asking is that in my 335i, it will be nearly impossible to shroud any of the plastic fender arch from the engine compartment on the left side due to air filter and other stuff blocking. And on the right side I think I can only get about half of it covered as clearances are too tight as it drops down toward the front bumper area.

I will try blocking the gaps between rear of front fender and body as you describe in the last part of your post so hope that provides some good improvement.

[CKau]

Originally Posted by pcbrew

CKau,

This is great work, but the description above describes your journey of discovery.
I would like to understand what you finally ended up with and if you have any assessment as to overall effectiveness of various fixes.

Good question. I drove on a huge variety of surfaces last night... Thanks in no part to my friend giving me dodgey instructons to a restaurant and taking the longer route.

Broadly speaking on some road surfaces there has been tremendous improvement. Other surfaces less so. On smooth rubberised tarmac for example, it is as quiet as my mk6 Golf. Smooth concrete is also good as is coarse chipped tarmac roads. The type where concrete is mixed with large or small chips is still noisey (but improved nonetheless).

Specifically as to which method gives the best results, I think the sock produces the most. I havent tried all combinations of shrouding with carpet vs the sock to see what precisely contributed the most.

In terms of sound proofing quality, there is less roar coming into the cabin from the front wheels for the higher frequencies. However, as with all the fixes i have done, i think my ears get so attuned to the reduced level, all remaining noises are emphasised.

So dont expect that this will eliminate all road roar. It reduces the higher frequencies, but does not eliminate them, quite possibly in my case either due a myriad of other issues such as the rear doors and/or rear wheels generating the other noise.

On my particular vehicle I can see that the rear doors are not perfectly flush and when i press on them from outside, there is still further potential for the "shut" to be tightened. Adjustments by the service centre there may yield further improvements.

I have ramps that i used to change my engine oil. I may reverse the car on the ramps to take a look at the underside of the rear to see if any sound deadening opportunities exist at the rear.

I mentioned in my post i wanted to tackle reverberation. I still believe this is a huge source of the remaining noises... Particularly when i compare to what mercedes and VW have done to sound proof their wheel arches.

My ability to tackle this as a DIY is stifled with finding an appropriate sound deadening material that can handle wet conditions as well as dry.

[pcbrew]

Thanks for this.
I got some 1.25 x 3/8 inch (~32 x 9.5mm) adhesive-backed foam tape and tried to apply on left (drivers) side but it's very difficult to apply cleanly behind the hinge and wire harness connector.
Any advice there short of removing the door?

Did you make any before/after measurements?
I got a sound meter app for my phone and took some baseline measurements and will compare with "after" results.
I will also compare to a super quiet 2013 Audi Q5 and a 2012 Honda CR-V.

[FVM3]

I've driven a loaner 2013 f30 328i and its quiet to me, even on the freeway

[Frogman]

The following chronicles my sound reduction activities today.

Summary: To my totally uncalibrated, old, dirty, and hearing-loss ears, all of these changes seemed to deaden the road and wind noise significantly. I think what I hear now is the actual window noise caused by mirror turbulence. I guess the only way to confirm that is to remove the mirrors and see if the buffeting noise goes away. Humm, how to convince the SA to write that up!! That, or I'll just turn up the death-metal a few more clicks and stop worrying about it!


CKau, I also noticed that the back of my front doors stick out about 2mm from the front of the back doors and the back of the back doors stick out about 1mm from the rear frame. I'll ask BMW to adjust the door the next time I take it in.

Part 1: The Strut Area.

My previous strut fix (documented above) helped a little , but not very much. Plus, I didn't like the idea of unprotected foam on the right side against the exhaust heat shield.

Then I saw CKau's new work and decided to try again.

I was out running errands and swung by my local foam store. They only carry foam products.

I noticed that they had a roll of Ensolite Acoustical Firewall foam which looked perfect for the wheel lining area. It is 1/4 inch dense foam (maybe neoprene) with a metal foil backing. I got a foot of it (1 foot by 3 feet).
I also picked up some 2 inch acoustic foam; they had a lots and lots of it.



So, I first re-did the strut holes. I used a bit of the firewall foam to be on the inside of the chassis (metal foil facing inside the engine compartment) and kept it in place with some of the 2" foam cut down to 1".



Installation was easy.

Firewall foam first, then 2" foam to hold it in place (taken from the left wheel well):



View from the engine compartment, left Side:



Right side:




Part 2: The Fender Gaps.

Next, I filled the upper fender gaps with most of the 2" foam (about 4" by 14" on each side). You could store a gallon of water in there! Again, installation was easy, I just stuffed the foam in there.

Right Side, Left Side:



Part 3: The Plastic Wheel Covers.

Next, I covered the wheel well plastic. Man, that is thin stuff! I just tucked the firewall foam between the plastic and the metal which shaped the foam perfectly and the wires kept everything in place.
I did need to use a little bit of outdoor mounting tape to hold down the front end of the foam at the bottom.

Right side, before and after:



Left Side, before and after (there isn't as much room here to add the foam because of the radiator reservoir and A/C pipes)




Part 4: The Door frame Gap.

Lastly, I filled the door gaps with 1/2" backer rod and some left over 2" foam for the big open square at the bottom of each door.



I tried covering the vertical gap with tape (I even used red electrical tape), but I just couldn't get my hands into the area to lay the tape down effectively.

CKau, how did you get tape in there??


Left side, before and after (lower):





Final Summary:

I'm done playing with foam! This car is meant for driving, not arts and crafts.

This was about 2 hours of fun cutting foam and stuffing it into nooks and crannies.

I can't tell you if it was worth it for you or not, but it was for me, so I'm happy!

Thanks again KCau for the hard work, and ingenuity in figuring this out.

[CKau]

Originally Posted by Frogman

CKau, how did you get tape in there??
Thanks again KCau for the hard work, and ingenuity in figuring this out.

first of all Frogman... Well done... You are legendary! Thanks for posting the pics and listing the materials you used. I will try to source some foam as well as i think your approach absorbs a lot more sound than mine.

To answer your question regarding the taping... It was just plain finicky hard work. I fed the length from above and worked it downards. Once the tape was roughly in place i removed the adhesive backing. The foam tape can somewhat hold its shape to allow the feed.

To position it accurately to the gap I alternated between opening the door fully and closing it ever so slightly to the first "feint" click to try and get my fat fingers to align the foam tape.

I just worked up the length of the tape.

it is rewarding to see this method works for others as well. Sometimes i wonder if i have achieved anything... Like i said... Once you remove some noise, you tend to focus n the residual remaining noises. I have already lost sight... I mean sound... Of the gains i made :-p

Well done mate!

[xit2050]

Originally Posted by Frogman

Went to my car with high hopes of reducing noise levels and the intention to do the exact same thing... Only to find that the gap in my car is properly filled with isolating materials.

So, if this material is absent in your cars, I suggest paying a visit to the dealer because it supposed to be there.

[Frogman]

Originally Posted by xit2050

Went to my car with high hopes of reducing noise levels and the intention to do the exact same thing... Only to find that the gap in my car is properly filled with isolating materials.

So, if this material is absent in your cars, I suggest paying a visit to the dealer because it supposed to be there.

Interesting! Can you post some pictures?