[Mike_L]

Has anybody ever tried to convert the N55 over to an air to water intercooler instead of the air to air ones we have stock? It appears to be a fairly straight forward conversion due to the way the motor is piped, and I think there would be substantial advantages in cooling performance.

If you notice, all of BMWs higher performance turbo motors (N63, S63, S55) use air to water cooling. Thats because it works better. Curious as to why we have just been accepting that we have air to air instead of converting to the better system?

It really wouldn't be that expensive to do. Air to water cores are fairly cheap, especially on eBay, you could use an old VW Rabbit radiator as your heat exchanger, and an inline water pump from Bosch or Mezeire would circulate the fluid. Throw in some aluminum pipes, plus rubber lines if you want to be cheap, or silicone (or braided stainless) if you can spend a bit more and you're good to go.

Just some thoughts. Feel free to shoot me down if this is a stupid idea.

[FC4]

LOL. Go for it. Let us know how it goes.

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by FC4

LOL. Go for it. Let us know how it goes.

My back is too screwed up to go for anything. In the past, I'd have done it. Now, not happening.

[USC2000]

Con’s
1. Requires a lot of other accessories to work.
2. Because it is more complex, it naturally causes more opportunity for problems, like leaks.
3. Can become heat soaked when used for long periods of hard driving and become terribly in-efficient.

Is it worth the trouble for better efficiency?

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by USC2000

Con’s
1. Requires a lot of other accessories to work.
2. Because it is more complex, it naturally causes more opportunity for problems, like leaks.
3. Can become heat soaked when used for long periods of hard driving and become terribly in-efficient.

Is it worth the trouble for better efficiency?

1. Like? Pretty much just a pump.
2. Never had an issue, and I've had numerous A2W cooled cars.
3. Same holds true for A2A. At least A2W can be set up with an ice box if you plan on racing.

[zinner]

I think the biggest advantage would be a shorter air charge path. the new gm v6tt has a very short charge pipe inches vs feet

[shivaswrath]

Just buy an M3.

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

Just buy an M3.

Find me one with AWD and a real back seat.

[zinner]

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

Just buy an M3.

I get a kick out of people that come into the Drivetrain Modifications forum and say something like this. I think it's a cool idea to toss around.

[shivaswrath]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

Find me one with AWD and a real back seat.

Mike, you don't have the cold weather package, but think AWD is needed in our neck of the woods? you crack me up man!

But honestly, the M3 has same sort of back seat as our F30. AWD is for the faint of heart, throw on some winter studded tires and drift your way through winter!

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

Mike, you don't have the cold weather package, but think AWD is needed in our neck of the woods? you crack me up man!

But honestly, the M3 has same sort of back seat as our F30. AWD is for the faint of heart, throw on some winter studded tires and drift your way through winter!

But I don't have an F30. I have an F34 with the extra 5.4" of rear leg room. Thats exactly why I deal with the ugly hatchback.

Cold weather package adds nothing for me. AWD adds everything. Power means nothing without traction, and AWD gives the traction needed. I don't need it for the snow, I need it for acceleration. Theres only so much power you can get down through 2 tires.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

Cold weather package adds nothing for me. AWD adds everything. Power means nothing without traction, and AWD gives the traction needed. I don't need it for the snow, I need it for acceleration. Theres only so much power you can get down through 2 tires.

This is laughable. People act as if these cars are severely traction limited.

My 435i with 381/432 to the wheels has full traction in 2nd gear, on both stock 19" Bridgestone RFTs and now on stock-sizes Pilot Super Sports. AWD would not help one bit in my case, even with 100 RWHP more than stock.

But, yes...there is only so much power you can put down to 2 tires. Lucky for us, these cars won't come anywhere close to even a fraction of that level to have to worry about it. The reason GTRs and Gallardos are the fastest street-cars now versus Vipers, Corvettes, and Supras 5+ years ago is because they eclipsed 1500 RWHP.

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by FC4

This is laughable. People act as if these cars are severely traction limited.

My 435i with 381/432 to the wheels has full traction in 2nd gear, on both stock 19" Bridgestone RFTs and now on stock-sizes Pilot Super Sports. AWD would not help one bit in my case, even with 100 RWHP more than stock.

But, yes...there is only so much power you can put down to 2 tires. Lucky for us, these cars won't come anywhere close to even a fraction of that level to have to worry about it. The reason GTRs and Gallardos are the fastest street-cars now versus Vipers, Corvettes, and Supras 5+ years ago is because they eclipsed 1500 RWHP.

Then why don't you explain why the AWD versions are quicker than the RWD ones, despite a weight disadvantage? You just aren't launching hard enough if you aren't traction limited.

I was traction limited with my Trans Am when it was stock, despite running 275mm rear tires. Forget it with the 300 SRT8 and CTS-V, they would roast the tires for hours if you'd let them. The V would break traction going into 4th gear at over 100mph on a prepped track! Any rear driver with more than 250hp or 300ft/lbs is going to be traction limited unless you're running slicks or drag radials.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

Then why don't you explain why the AWD versions are quicker than the RWD ones, despite a weight disadvantage? You just aren't launching hard enough if you aren't traction limited.

Quicker how? You likely mean strictly from 0 MPH...which no one cares about and is irrelevant in the real world. When's the last time an adult launched a car full boil on the street anywhere that it was safe to come to a complete stop? There is not one reason to go WOT in 1st gear in practically anything, and if you're launching a car often on the street...you're likely 16 years old and/or ghetto.

Even a stock Honda Accord will spin tire when launched or shifted hard. A sudden shock of energy causing the tires to slip is nothing impressive. The context of being limited by traction, at least to people who drive fast cars, has more to do with speed at which you can't hook at all.

Originally Posted by Mike_L

I was traction limited with my Trans Am when it was stock, despite running 275mm rear tires. Forget it with the 300 SRT8 and CTS-V, they would roast the tires for hours if you'd let them. The V would break traction going into 4th gear at over 100mph on a prepped track! Any rear driver with more than 250hp or 300ft/lbs is going to be traction limited unless you're running slicks or drag radials.

I've often found people to grossly exaggerate traction issues on the internet. Again, barking the tires going into 4th gear not having "traction issues." But if you're in 4th and have to pedal it to keep it from spinning, then welcome to having a 1200+ HP car.

And, no...if you think anything above 300 lb. ft. of torque needs specialty tires, you're delusional. My 800 RWHP C6Z must have street tires infused with unicorn oil because it hooks in 3rd gear.

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by FC4

Quicker how? You likely mean strictly from 0 MPH...which no one cares about and is irrelevant in the real world. When's the last time an adult launched a car full boil on the street anywhere that it was safe to come to a complete stop? There is not one reason to go WOT in 1st gear in practically anything, and if you're launching a car often on the street...you're likely 16 years old and/or ghetto.

Even a stock Honda Accord will spin tire when launched or shifted hard. A sudden shock of energy causing the tires to slip is nothing impressive. The context of being limited by traction, at least to people who drive fast cars, has more to do with speed at which you can't hook at all.



I've often found people to grossly exaggerate traction issues on the internet. Again, barking the tires going into 4th gear not having "traction issues." But if you're in 4th and have to pedal it to keep it from spinning, then welcome to having a 1200+ HP car.

And, no...if you think anything above 300 lb. ft. of torque needs specialty tires, you're delusional. My 800 RWHP C6Z must have street tires infused with unicorn oil because it hooks in 3rd gear.

From 0 is quite important when you go to the drag strip, which I have historically done.

The traction issues with the V were BAD. It would get squirrelly on the shift to 4th and if you didn't lift you'd definitely hit the wall. It didn't have that much power either. Mid-6's.

[Golden Arrow]

Originally Posted by FC4

Quicker how? You likely mean strictly from 0 MPH...which no one cares about and is irrelevant in the real world. When's the last time an adult launched a car full boil on the street anywhere that it was safe to come to a complete stop? There is not one reason to go WOT in 1st gear in practically anything, and if you're launching a car often on the street...you're likely 16 years old and/or ghetto.

Even a stock Honda Accord will spin tire when launched or shifted hard. A sudden shock of energy causing the tires to slip is nothing impressive. The context of being limited by traction, at least to people who drive fast cars, has more to do with speed at which you can't hook at all.

I've often found people to grossly exaggerate traction issues on the internet. Again, barking the tires going into 4th gear not having "traction issues." But if you're in 4th and have to pedal it to keep it from spinning, then welcome to having a 1200+ HP car.

And, no...if you think anything above 300 lb. ft. of torque needs specialty tires, you're delusional. My 800 RWHP C6Z must have street tires infused with unicorn oil because it hooks in 3rd gear.

I'm ghetto/an adolescent because I enjoy occasionally embarrassing rowdy Mustang GT owners at stoplights? Scrooge.

Not sure how it is on the new electric steering cars, but I loved the way my E46 330xi felt in the twisties. When compared with my RWD E46, it felt so much more planted and I was able to stay on throttle where in a RWD I would've been sideways. I'm sure on a track the numbers would be slower, but on the street I really enjoyed it.

[USC2000]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

From 0 is quite important when you go to the drag strip, which I have historically done.

The traction issues with the V were BAD. It would get squirrelly on the shift to 4th and if you didn't lift you'd definitely hit the wall. It didn't have that much power either. Mid-6's.

From all the numbers I've seen for BMWs, the AWD versions were slower at the track. Quicker to launch, but lose by the end of the quareter mile.

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by USC2000

From all the numbers I've seen for BMWs, the AWD versions were slower at the track. Quicker to launch, but lose by the end of the quareter mile.

Not according to BMW or most magazines. AWD is generally .2 quicker than RWD A8, which is .2 quicker than 6MT.

[Labeef]

I think installing an all aluminum intercooler would give better results.

[USC2000]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

Not according to BMW or most magazines. AWD is generally .2 quicker than RWD A8, which is .2 quicker than 6MT.

Yeah, to 60 MPH, but beyond that the added wheight and drivetrain losses allow the RWD to catch or pass it in the quater mile.

[PushingRedline]

The new M3 does have traction issues... I know because my friend has one. Not saying it isn't an amazingly fast car or that it's impossible to get traction.

But there is something to be said about not caring about when you can floor it and not having to leave traction control on. Also, the other day I had to turn left out of Starbucks and there was so much traffic with snow on the ground. I was able to make a small window that I know I would not dare try with just RWD but again that was in snow.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by PushingRedline

The new M3 does have traction issues... I know because my friend has one. Not saying it isn't an amazingly fast car or that it's impossible to get traction.

To a slight degree, although it is completely exaggerated on the F80 forum.

They're the best street tires overall, but PSSs don't grip particularly well when cold relative to other max performance tires. Interestingly enough, many talk about switching to R888s or RE-11s for more grip, both awful when cold (had RE-11s in the past and they're downright scary in <60 degree weather), which will only make matters worse. And guess what...most of the country has been cold the last several months.

Combine that with the gearing of the DCT, which is frankly too short given the car's powerband, and yes it will spin in 2nd gear at will. With cold tires. My dealer hasn't brought in a 6MT M3/M4 tester, but I can imagine it will fare better.