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      11-28-2017, 06:31 PM   #67
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Your link discusses telcos. I'm not discussing telcos. From this point forward I'm certain how to handle your commentary.
Did you only read the first couple sentences of his link or something?

Because this is you:


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By the end of 2014, America will have been charged about $400 billion by the local phone incumbents, Verizon, AT&T and CenturyLink, for a fiber optic future that never showed up. And though it varies by state, counting the taxes, fees and surcharges that you have paid every month (many of these fees are actually revenues to the company or taxes on the company that you paid), it comes to about $4000-$5000.00 per household from 1992-2014, and that’s the low number.

You were also charged about nine times to wire the schools and libraries via state and federal plans designed to help the phone and cable companies.

And if that doesn’t bother you, by year-end of 2010, and based on the commitments made by the phone companies in their press statements, filings on the state and federal level, and the state-based ‘alternative regulation’ plans that were put in place to charge you for broadband upgrades of the telephone company wire in your home, business, as well as the schools and libraries — America, should have been the world’s first fully fibered, leading edge broadband nation.

In fact, in 1992, the speed of broadband, as detailed in state laws, was 45 Mbps in both directions — by 2014, all of us should have been enjoying gigabit speeds (1000 Mbps).

Instead, America is not number 1 or 2 or 5 or even 10th in the world in broadband. As of Monday, September 15th, 2014, one of the standard testing companies of the speed of broadband, worldwide, Net Index by Ookla, pegged America at 25th in the world in download speeds and 40th in upload speeds. Though this accounting varies daily, America’s download speeds are never in the top 20 countries.
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      11-29-2017, 06:33 AM   #68
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I still don't understand why the ISPs can't offer priority bandwidth for a fee to content providers. Just revoke their monopoly status. .
Because there's no practical way to, as a consumer, choose to have Netflix through your Cox connection and Hulu through your Comcast one. That's the fundamental problem. As a consumer, you can choose your service provider but without net neutrality protection your service provider then decides what you can or can't enjoy based on the agreements they negotiate or their self-interest in the content they own.

The carriage disputes you see between cable providers/satellite distros and content owners is what the world looks like without net neutrality. So, you choose DirectTV and suddenly the network you want to watch is unavailable because of a dispute between DirectTV and Comcast (who own the content). Comcast is provoking the dispute by jacking carriage rates to the point where DirectTV will have to either walk away or increase your subscription fees such that Comcast's competing cable service looks more attractive.

What the FCC did is highly anti-consumer because it's taking the broadcast TV model and applying it to the internet. So now, in addition to paying your ISP for bandwidth and consumption, you are now going to pay them for access to content too on top of your subscription fees to the service itself. Or, if they have competing content, they can disadvantage your access to Netflix/Amazon/Hulu/HBO Now/etc to promote NBC Universal content that they own (using Comcast as the example).

The broken, anti-consumer, cable TV model was created at a time when the service providers didn't own content and it wasn't foreseeable that they would. Having seen how all players behave in the broadcast TV realm, why would you want to duplicate the same stupidity with the internet? Net neutrality is the protection against that.
Clearly the solution is to encourage competition in the market. As I said earlier, revoking the govt granted monopoly status of the ISPs will allow the consumer to shop for the service they want. ISP's which try to steer customers to their own content or block sites will lose customers and go out of business. That's how it works. The solution isn't more govt interference in the market place. There's no need for some bureaucrat in DC making decisions because he think he's smarter than the market.
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      11-29-2017, 08:41 AM   #69
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You're a perky fellow aren't you. Okay. I'm Netflix, and I have a server farm that generates the data streams for my customers. It's capable of generating 100K data streams at full HD. Great, except my customers are calling for 150K data streams. Now I, Netflix, have to either reduce video quality to handle the extra load, or I have to tell 1/3 of my customers "sorry no can do, come back tomorrow". Of course I, Netflix, am going to do the former.

Or, I have 100K titles, and only keep the 10K hot sellers on my fast new hardware. My older hardware is what feeds demand for the rest. So if my customer requests, for example, "1966 Formula 1 Season Highlights", guess where it comes from.

Note that the data hasn't even left Netflix yet. Not one iota of what is happening above has one micron to do with the size of the pipe connecting the customer to the data stream. It's all inside the Netflix data center.

Now change Netflix to Amazon in the above scenario, because I don't have streaming issues with Netflix. Never have, for many years. I've been streaming content from them since well before the supposed ransom paid by Netflix to Comcast and other backbone operators. (I'm sure you knew that Comcast operates its own backbone, and Netflix paid fees to other backbones besides Comcast to get their onramps upgraded.)

In short, my pipe is fine. Netflix knows how to scale their plant to handle demand. Amazon does not. Or, cheapskate outfit they have always been, chooses not to.

Now it's your turn. Please tell me again how stupid I am and how my issue with Amazon is definitely a case of my big bad cable provider purposely throttling poor little Amazon.
Amazon is not as incompetent as you make them out to be. Amazon has this thing called AWS (Amazon Web Services). I would find it highly stupid and beyond belief if Amazon doesn't leverage their own AWS infrastructure to do their streaming services. AWS which runs many large corporations and ecommerce sites.

And your example of Netflix....well...they're running on AWS.

https://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/netflix/
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      11-29-2017, 08:46 AM   #70
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I still don't understand why the ISPs can't offer priority bandwidth for a fee to content providers. Just revoke their monopoly status. .
They already do have a policy in place which addresses high consumption users. It's called data quotas. I have both Comcast and Mediacrap...I mean Mediacom. The plan I have with Comcast has no per month data cap at this time. They've always mentioned they have the right to institute one but haven't for a few years now on the particular data plan I have. The lower tiers do have per month data caps. My Mediacrap service at my vacation property does have a spelled out monthly data cap.

So what happens when you hit that monthly data cap? Well, you pay a higher rate per GB you download. So what the cable companies are doing is capturing any excess usage you are doing if you are buying a lower tier service and incentivizing customers to pay for the higher tier/higher speed services to have larger monthly data caps or unlimited data.

I agree that these companies should have the government controls locking them in as the only game in town removed.
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      11-29-2017, 08:53 AM   #71
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Oh and by the way, I suffer directly from Mediacrap doing selective traffic shaping on the service I purchase from them. When ever I stream video content via my Slingbox or Plex server, I get all sorts of choppy unstable streams. But when I do anything else while these streams are going, it's fine for anything else such as Youtube.

For anyone that doesn't know, Slingbox is a streaming box that you physically connect a source (in my case it's one of my DirecTV HD DVRs) to view content from the connected source over the Internet. Plex is a media streaming server where you can provide access to pictures, music, and movies over the Internet. In my case, I'm my own streaming service and Mediacrap is choosing to degrade my experience.

How I know it's not Comcast is because, the streams from the above sources work fine over other Internet connections such as the free WiFi at hotels and coffee shops.
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      11-29-2017, 11:26 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Clearly the solution is to encourage competition in the market. As I said earlier, revoking the govt granted monopoly status of the ISPs will allow the consumer to shop for the service they want. ISP's which try to steer customers to their own content or block sites will lose customers and go out of business. That's how it works. The solution isn't more govt interference in the market place. There's no need for some bureaucrat in DC making decisions because he think he's smarter than the market.

How exactly do you think "competition" is going to fix ISP issues? When the cost to enter the game is in the billions; there are no alternative companies trying to step in and being held back... More than 60% of the US still has access to only 1 ISP provider, and more than 90% only has access to 1 at "acceptable" speeds, ie 10mb or better download speeds.

The thought that revoking net neutrality will somehow create competition is naive at best; all it will create is higher costs on consumers when ISPs start deciding what they want to allow or make money on.
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      11-29-2017, 11:36 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Clearly the solution is to encourage competition in the market. As I said earlier, revoking the govt granted monopoly status of the ISPs will allow the consumer to shop for the service they want. ISP's which try to steer customers to their own content or block sites will lose customers and go out of business. That's how it works. The solution isn't more govt interference in the market place. There's no need for some bureaucrat in DC making decisions because he think he's smarter than the market.

How exactly do you think "competition" is going to fix ISP issues? When the cost to enter the game is in the billions; there are no alternative companies trying to step in and being held back... More than 60% of the US still has access to only 1 ISP provider, and more than 90% only has access to 1 at "acceptable" speeds, ie 10mb or better download speeds.

The thought that revoking net neutrality will somehow create competition is naive at best; all it will create is higher costs on consumers when ISPs start deciding what they want to allow or make money on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Clearly the solution is to encourage competition in the market. As I said earlier, revoking the govt granted monopoly status of the ISPs will allow the consumer to shop for the service they want. ISP's which try to steer customers to their own content or block sites will lose customers and go out of business. That's how it works. The solution isn't more govt interference in the market place. There's no need for some bureaucrat in DC making decisions because he think he's smarter than the market.

How exactly do you think "competition" is going to fix ISP issues? When the cost to enter the game is in the billions; there are no alternative companies trying to step in and being held back... More than 60% of the US still has access to only 1 ISP provider, and more than 90% only has access to 1 at "acceptable" speeds, ie 10mb or better download speeds.

The thought that revoking net neutrality will somehow create competition is naive at best; all it will create is higher costs on consumers when ISPs start deciding what they want to allow or make money on.
There are a limited number of providers in some areas because either the govt gave them monopoly status or there's limited demand. Cost to build out isn't really relevant. The root cause behind NN is ISP monopolies. Ban the govt sanctioned monopoly and there's no need for NN.

Less govt intrusion in the market the better. For example the DOJ has sued to block the vertical integration of Time Warner and ATT. Never in history has that sort of integration been blocked.
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      11-29-2017, 11:39 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
There are a limited number of providers in some areas because either the govt gave them monopoly status or there's limited demand. Cost to build out isn't really relevant. The root cause behind NN is ISP monopolies. Ban the govt sanctioned monopoly and there's no need for NN.

Less govt intrusion in the market the better. For example the DOJ has sued to block the vertical integration of Time Warner and ATT. Never in history has that sort of integration been blocked.
Completely false. Again. I swear it's like you live in some corporate dream world...?

Everything you just posted is wrong, please just stop already.

There are at least 2 dozen posts in this thread that explain the actual issue; and you still don't get it. At this point, you just sound like a Comcast or Verizon mouthpiece trying to change public perception and failing miserably at it...

Last edited by Uber Commuter; 11-29-2017 at 11:45 AM.
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      11-29-2017, 11:52 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
There are a limited number of providers in some areas because either the govt gave them monopoly status or there's limited demand. Cost to build out isn't really relevant. The root cause behind NN is ISP monopolies. Ban the govt sanctioned monopoly and there's no need for NN.

Less govt intrusion in the market the better. For example the DOJ has sued to block the vertical integration of Time Warner and ATT. Never in history has that sort of integration been blocked.
Completely false. Again. I swear it's like you live in some corporate dream world...?

Everything you just posted is wrong, please just stop already.

There are at least 2 dozen posts in this thread that explain the actual issue; and you still don't get it. At this point, you just sound like a Comcast or Verizon mouthpiece trying to change public perception and failing miserably at it...
Really? What did I say that was false?
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      11-29-2017, 11:53 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
There are a limited number of providers in some areas because either the govt gave them monopoly status or there's limited demand. Cost to build out isn't really relevant. The root cause behind NN is ISP monopolies. Ban the govt sanctioned monopoly and there's no need for NN.

Less govt intrusion in the market the better. For example the DOJ has sued to block the vertical integration of Time Warner and ATT. Never in history has that sort of integration been blocked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
Completely false. Again. I swear it's like you live in some corporate dream world...?

Everything you just posted is wrong, please just stop already.

There are at least 2 dozen posts in this thread that explain the actual issue; and you still don't get it. At this point, you just sound like a Comcast or Verizon mouthpiece trying to change public perception and failing miserably at it...
https://www.thestreet.com/story/1271...mcast-att.html

Parallel universes. Mergers are blocked all of the time. Here are a few in the Telecom industry.
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      11-29-2017, 11:59 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
There are a limited number of providers in some areas because either the govt gave them monopoly status or there's limited demand. Cost to build out isn't really relevant. The root cause behind NN is ISP monopolies. Ban the govt sanctioned monopoly and there's no need for NN.

Less govt intrusion in the market the better. For example the DOJ has sued to block the vertical integration of Time Warner and ATT. Never in history has that sort of integration been blocked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
Completely false. Again. I swear it's like you live in some corporate dream world...?

Everything you just posted is wrong, please just stop already.

There are at least 2 dozen posts in this thread that explain the actual issue; and you still don't get it. At this point, you just sound like a Comcast or Verizon mouthpiece trying to change public perception and failing miserably at it...
https://www.thestreet.com/story/1271...mcast-att.html

Parallel universes. Mergers are blocked all of the time. Here are a few in the Telecom industry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
There are a limited number of providers in some areas because either the govt gave them monopoly status or there's limited demand. Cost to build out isn't really relevant. The root cause behind NN is ISP monopolies. Ban the govt sanctioned monopoly and there's no need for NN.

Less govt intrusion in the market the better. For example the DOJ has sued to block the vertical integration of Time Warner and ATT. Never in history has that sort of integration been blocked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
Completely false. Again. I swear it's like you live in some corporate dream world...?

Everything you just posted is wrong, please just stop already.

There are at least 2 dozen posts in this thread that explain the actual issue; and you still don't get it. At this point, you just sound like a Comcast or Verizon mouthpiece trying to change public perception and failing miserably at it...
https://www.thestreet.com/story/1271...mcast-att.html

Parallel universes. Mergers are blocked all of the time. Here are a few in the Telecom industry.
Yes, but they're horizontal mergers (ex, ATT w/ T-Mobile). For contrast Comcast and GE (NBC Universal) weren't.
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      11-29-2017, 12:05 PM   #78
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Yes, but they're horizontal mergers (ex, ATT w/ T-Mobile). For contrast Comcast and GE (NBC Universal) weren't.
Some fear that vertical integrations can be used as a back-door into a horizontal merger as well as the potential for collusion with regard to shared systems and price fixing. It's a bad idea and anti-competitive.
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      11-29-2017, 02:26 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
There are a limited number of providers in some areas because either the govt gave them monopoly status or there's limited demand. Cost to build out isn't really relevant. The root cause behind NN is ISP monopolies. Ban the govt sanctioned monopoly and there's no need for NN.

Less govt intrusion in the market the better. For example the DOJ has sued to block the vertical integration of Time Warner and ATT. Never in history has that sort of integration been blocked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Really? What did I say that was false?
Here's half a dozen just off the top of my head...
  1. The government did not "give" monopolies to ISPs
  2. There is not limited demand for high speed internet anywhere in the country...
  3. Cost to build out is totally relevant, and the single largest roadblock to becoming an ISP for a new company
  4. Net Neutrality isn't even about monopolies at all
  5. NN is about content freedom, not about bandwidth control or monopolies. Even if all the monopolies were broken up, ISPs could still filter or block your content without NN; that's the point.
  6. Vertical integrations have been blocked in the past; it is more rare but not unheard of.

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      11-29-2017, 02:29 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Really? What did I say that was false?
Literally everything you have posted is not based in fact, or hell- reality.
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      11-29-2017, 03:08 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
There are a limited number of providers in some areas because either the govt gave them monopoly status or there's limited demand. Cost to build out isn't really relevant. The root cause behind NN is ISP monopolies. Ban the govt sanctioned monopoly and there's no need for NN.

Less govt intrusion in the market the better. For example the DOJ has sued to block the vertical integration of Time Warner and ATT. Never in history has that sort of integration been blocked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Really? What did I say that was false?
Here's half a dozen just off the top of my head...
  1. The government did not "give" monopolies to ISPs
  2. There is not limited demand for high speed internet anywhere in the country...
  3. Cost to build out is totally relevant, and the single largest roadblock to becoming an ISP for a new company
  4. Net Neutrality isn't even about monopolies at all
  5. NN is about content freedom, not about bandwidth control or monopolies. Even if all the monopolies were broken up, ISPs could still filter or block your content without NN; that's the point.
  6. Vertical integrations have been blocked in the past; it is more rare but not unheard of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
There are a limited number of providers in some areas because either the govt gave them monopoly status or there's limited demand. Cost to build out isn't really relevant. The root cause behind NN is ISP monopolies. Ban the govt sanctioned monopoly and there's no need for NN.

Less govt intrusion in the market the better. For example the DOJ has sued to block the vertical integration of Time Warner and ATT. Never in history has that sort of integration been blocked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Really? What did I say that was false?
Here's half a dozen just off the top of my head...
  1. The government did not "give" monopolies to ISPs
  2. There is not limited demand for high speed internet anywhere in the country...
  3. Cost to build out is totally relevant, and the single largest roadblock to becoming an ISP for a new company
  4. Net Neutrality isn't even about monopolies at all
  5. NN is about content freedom, not about bandwidth control or monopolies. Even if all the monopolies were broken up, ISPs could still filter or block your content without NN; that's the point.
  6. Vertical integrations have been blocked in the past; it is more rare but not unheard of.

You're mistaken, ISPs have been known to get the govt to discourage or outright prevent competition from entering a market. That's how monopolies operate and part of the quid pro quo.

NN is about monopolies, because the assumption is that the ISPs control access between a site/service and the customer. NN is an attempt to address that access with regulation in order to short circuit donor influence from the ISPs. Never mind that those who "benefit" from NN also spent lots of $ to "kiss the ring" in DC for all this to happen.

Building of networks doesn't have to be expensive if govt got out of the way in terms of licensing, ROW, easements, and the obligatory campaign contribution. Established ISPs don't mind this expense because it limits competition.
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      11-29-2017, 04:01 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
You're mistaken, ISPs have been known to get the govt to discourage or outright prevent competition from entering a market. That's how monopolies operate and part of the quid pro quo.

NN is about monopolies, (False) because the assumption is that the ISPs control access between a site/service and the customer. (not an assumption) NN is an attempt to address that access with regulation in order to short circuit donor influence from the ISPs. Never mind that those who "benefit" from NN also spent lots of $ to "kiss the ring" in DC for all this to happen. ( yes, it's a shit idea that Netflix should pay more to push the same 1s and 0s through a pipeline than the ISP's own proprietary content. Regardless, the internet is literally a necessity to almost all businesses these days, removing these rules would only benefit the ISPs over literally EVERYONE ELSE)

Building of networks doesn't have to be expensive if govt got out of the way in terms of licensing, ROW, easements, and the obligatory campaign contribution. (Big if true...but no proof. And what government? City/municipal, County, State? Federal?) Established ISPs don't mind this expense because it limits competition. (that won't change with,
or without NN)
Please see the above post.
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      11-30-2017, 09:12 AM   #83
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You're mistaken,
Someone is mistaken for sure, but it ain't me bud...

Oh, and please, for the love of god, learn how to quote once instead of twice
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