[bri1042]

I was ignorant, once, but didn't know it, and life was easier.

In the neon-lit days of the 80's and early 90's, I had no money for audio upgrades in the car, and could barely keep the junkers I owned running. If I had a working tape deck with more than a single functional speaker, I had all I could ask for in the world.

My speakers at home were small, and cheap, so I had nothing to compare the bad sound in my car to, so I pretty much didn't notice.

College ended, paychecks improved. I started swapping out tape decks to CD players and putting in lower-end but better-than-stock speakers, even the eventual sub in the hatch or trunk. Still pretty crappy stuff, but better.

One day, I got a decent bonus from work. I bought a decent home setup (for the time and my budget), a pair of gen 1 Paradigm Monitor 7's and a Denon receiver. Music at home got better. It was clear then that the music setup in my car wasn't going to cut it. I upgraded to better speakers and had an amp installed to run them (in my then two year-old 1994 Civic).

When the car got upgraded to a 1995 Integra GS-R, the setup was easy to transfer.

My pair of follow-up RSX-S's were fine with just a deck swap and a 10" JL sub running off of a mono Alpine amp. The stock speakers and doofy little stock amp weren't great, but they were fine. I always meant to upgrade those two cars further, but never did.

Following that with the base 6-speaker "stereo" system in my 2010 e90 was a horror. I had always assumed that the sound system in my Acura's would have been pathetic compared to what would come in a BMW. Silly me.

I made mistake after mistake on that car. I failed to recognize and take good advice when it was offered. I sought cheaper ways to make it all work and ended up spending more than if I had done it right in the first place. But I learned.

Right when I was about to give in and spend what needed to be spent, the e90 started having major issues and she was traded back to the dealership for the pretty red F30 that I've had for 16 months now. At least I had a clean slate with the sound system and a better starting point to make it sound decent.

The HiFi system was so much better, and for a few weeks I though I could just leave it alone (hah!). But it wasn't loud enough. The tweeters were deeply tiring at what volume it could put out. Honestly, it really is crap compared to the stock setup in the Type-S RSX's.

This is what's happened since (this is 15+ months of experimenting...some steps were longer in duration than others):

1. Bavsound speakers were installed. The improvement was pronounced. They do what the company advertises, and the number of speakers in the package make them a good value compared to the alternatives. But it wasn't loud enough for me...and there still wasn't enough bass (I was used to always have a trunk sub...not 3 12's or anything, but always just one).

2. I worked with MusicarNW and the stock speakers went back in with the Helix Match PPDSP82 Amp/DSP. If you haven't heard what our crappy stock speakers can do when tuned by real, world-class experts, then you would be amazed. They can't do what real high-end speakers can do, but they can do more than you would think possible. The system was better overall, even without a sub, than anything I had enjoyed in a car before.

3. MusicarNW's corner-loaded trunk sub was installed. At last, I entered Happy Camper land. Full-range sound, no seriously pronounced frequency holes that I could hear, and enough volume that I could take it up as high as my old ears would allow without hearing any distortion at all.

I should have stopped there. Really. It was really, really good! But I've learned so much, and I know what's really available if I'm willing to spend the money. As good as it is, I know it can be better. I know that if I go further, Tim Booth's voice on "Knuckle Too Far" off of "Laid" can sound closer to how it does live.

4. The Bavsound speakers have gone back in on the Helix. They are lacking expert tuning, but do still sound a bit better than the stocks did. I needed to know if they were actually good speakers or just better than what that awful stock amp was doing to the stock speakers. I just had to know. Now I'm sure. They are better than the stock speakers. They also react pretty well to being given actual power.

Stock speakers with expert tuning vs. Bavsound or other drop-in speakers without the expert touch? The distance between those two is not vast. If the choice, based on budget, between the two would result in NOT replacing the stock amp at all, then the choice is clear.

The Stock amp is the biggest demon of the crappy stock HiFi system, from my perspective. If you want your system to be louder than the road noise from your run-flats, you have to replace it. The EQ'ing it does is just criminal.

I also don't know if you could pay me to reconnect the center speaker. I really hated it. Even at home, I can't stand artificial 5.1 mixes of stereo sources. Actual 5.1 mixes done by the artist (like DM's 5.1 mixes of Violator and Black Celebration) are great...but receiver-mixed 5.1 makes me cry a bit and that squished R/L Center channel is hateful.

5. Well, what's next is the question. I have twenty months left with this car and will likely go to another BMW after my lease is up, and my addiction has led near to happiness but not quite all the way there. Male singers often hit below 200hz, so the low-end of what the 4" mids can accurately produce is really important. I listen to a lot of very lyric-oriented music and can get hung up on a badly reproduced word or two. I get obsessive about it.

I have had so much fun with this, even the bad mistakes on my e90. Learning is a reward, all by itself. My drive home from work every night is a reward as well! I don't mind getting stuck in traffic when I can listen to such pretty music!

[instalher]

as a world sq champion I can assure you the best improvement to make with any audio project is speakers. you went from ok to ok ish.... I would like you to concider going to a real good speaker for the doors and better tweeters, I would recommend scan speak tweeters 2004-6020-00 and go with the rainbow vanadium 4s or the hybrid audio legatia 4s. as far as the underseat 8s hybrid is commin out with one that is built expressly for our cars to be a true sq speaker not just,"a better than stock" option, I have spoken with Scott on this driver and it will blow away all the other shallow options out there now, as far as the sub, I personally would run jl audio. but I am really not biased by any one brand of sub.

[squidlyboy]

bri1042... thoroughly enjoyed your story and a lot of it resonated with me, especially point #1. Just upgraded my OEM speakers to BSW Sound One on my HiFi system. Actually i'm right between #1 and #2 right now. And i've actually spoken to Ken at MusicarNW in Portland about #2, but alas i'm in AZ. So jealous of you.

As many know the BSW's are not as efficient as the OEM speakers, so while the SQ has gone up, without the proper amp to power them, you need to crank the volume up past what you did before to get the same output. That would be my next move with the amp/DSP upgrade. That and proper EQ and re-balancing of the upgraded system.

After that, i'm still a little unsatisfied with how it seems like some of the lower bass notes come through on the midranges that are more suited to the underseat woofers. i listen to a lot of heavy bass in my music, and hearing some distortion come through on the midranges is a little unsettling. I'd like to upgrade the floor woofers to possibly Earthquakes SWS or similar (powered by an adequate amp), then EQ the midrange x-over from the OEM 140Hz to something a little higher like 200-250Hz. Then i can send the lower bass notes (70-250Hz) down the new floor woofers. And then down the road, possibly look at a trunk sub enclosure of some sort. I need some expert to chime in to see if that even makes sense. I know what i'm not liking when i hear it. But i'm not so sure how to fix it. This is just an educated guess..

I know there are better speakers out there, but im not willing to break the bank to do it. The BSW 7-speaker upgrade was a no brainer at $360. Not the best, but for the price point, fair. I know i could spend way more for way better speakers, but i don't want to. My other big requirement is to disturb as little as the OEM layout as possible. Everything needs to be returned to OEM if needed. This means PnP as much as its humanly possible to do: no splicing, drilling, cutting, etc.. only when its absolutely needed. My plan is to do things slow, incrementally in phases, at about $300-$400 a pop, getting the biggest bang for the buck, possibly doing an upgrade every quarter or so until i'm done.

[bri1042]

The Earthquakes might not do what you want them to do. I had a set in my e90. They were pretty good subwoofers, but pretty poor woofers. I had a massive mid-bass hole that was hard to live with. They do not do much past 150Hz. 100 Watts from a JL will feed the Earthquakes just fine, though. For the 2-Ohm Earthquakes, the Helix would likely cover them fine, too. It would be a bit weak for the 4-Ohm SWS's. They aren't supposed to be given much more than that anyway.

With a trunk sub, and for that I do absolutely recommend going with MusicarNW's custom enclosure (they can sell you a kit with the sub, the enclosure, and the amp...all Plug and Play without a single wire or interior bit cut), you might be better served with the Jehnerts as they are plain woofers, rather than subs.

Ken can ship you everything you need but if the price is outside of what you are able to swing, I totally get that. The JL /6 runs about $540 assuming you buy it from somewhere that the warranty is intact. The SWS's are, what, about $125 a piece? Add install costs and Technic's harness for about $200 more and Ken's PnP Helix kit isn't a ton more expensive than that kit. Honestly, I would suggest you talk with him again on the PnP kit including the Amp/DSP. You can get a lot closer to what you want with more power to your stock underseats (as well as your Bavsound speakers) and a bit of DSP work to smooth out the lower treble and warm up the 180-220 Hz range. I think the results will be better overall than using the Earthquakes. The e90 audio forums will give you a lot of info on them if you need it.

Regardless of your speaker choice, as long as you use the stock amp, you are stuck with the stock crossover points (and the total lack of actual power).

I have the Bavsounds at 150 and they are doing OK there, but that has to be approaching their resonance frequency. I wouldn't take them any lower but low-voiced male singers pretty much sound like themselves now, to a point.

[bri1042]

instalher:

If I'm going to go to speakers at that price, I'll had my credit card to MusicarNW and go with their recommended option. But that's the choice still before me...do I go further or not. I haven't made up my mind. :-)

I am running a JL in my trunk enclosure.

[ScubaSteve]

Bri1042, this has been a great post to read and has been quite informative. I have an f30 with the HK system and just finished installing a JL 500/3 amp with technics harness and lc2i. I have been playing with the gains trying to get as much from the oem under seat woofers before I make my next move. I have been waiting to hear more reviews about the Bavsound ghost subs but from what I've read so far I don't get the feeling that they are worth the $500 at the moment. It seems that most people are saying that they seem marginally better and for $500 I want to be really impressed. I was maybe considering going with the Sws 2 ohm subs but am concerned with many people commenting about a big hole in the mid bass area and wondering what are the other viable options for replacing the under seat woofers. I've heard very little about Jehnert, and have also heard about focal which sound like they are even more money than the ha sounds so I don't like that idea. Does anyone on here have any experience with MB quart. I come from a car audio background from about 15 yrs ago and MB quart were always considered to be a high quality speaker. I'm trying to avoid having to go with a trunk sub if I can avoid it but want to try replacing the under seats first to see how good I can get it before considering a trunk sub. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[RobMiller]

neat

[435MSport6Speed]

Go back to Musicar and get some Dynaudios or Morels. Then use them in your next BMW.

http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1186036