[Mingwan]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

I am blown away that there are people defending this guy as if he was just some random citizen who decided his own life was more important. He was an armed officer and his job was to protect the kids at school! He is a coward of the highest degree. Who knows how many lives could have been saved if he simply acted and engaged the shooter. Truly sickening to hear this.

Do you actually think I feel that bad for him? Did you read what I wrote before saying I felt bad for him?

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

Do you actually think I feel that bad for him? Did you read what I wrote before saying I felt bad for him?

Well, you explicitly said you "kinda do feel bad for him" in you post...

[are0lies]

I am reading that there were more than one officer who did not enter.

"Sources: Coral Springs police upset at some Broward deputies for not entering school"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/so...A3b?li=BBnb7Kz

[Mingwan]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Well, you explicitly said you "kinda do feel bad for him" in you post...

Hmm. Sometimes I forget sarcasm doesn’t translate so well on the internet. I thought it was clearer as I prefaced that statement by juxtaposing the guard’s actions to the actions of two courageous citizens who essentially did what the guard was supposed to do in that situation. Idk. I guess my sarcasm sucks...I’m not sure what’s wrong with feeling bad for the guard, anyways. He WILL hang his head in shame for the rest of his life if he has any ounce of integrity. I guess what I should have addressed was that I do feel bad for the families, obviously...Because it seemed like the implication(based on the comment I was replying to) was that I didn’t, or that I felt just as bad for the guard as I do for the families which isn’t the case. I guess me feeling sorry for the guard is more or less just pity.

[eluded]

There was a trained and highly praised armed officer there and he choked under pressure. Unfortunately death is a hazard of his job. That's why cops, firefighters, military are heroes... because they put their lives on the line for the rest of us.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by are0lies

I am reading that there were more than one officer who did not enter.

"Sources: Coral Springs police upset at some Broward deputies for not entering school"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/so...A3b?li=BBnb7Kz

Which proves why $10 an hour 3rd Party rent a cops is even a worse idea than arming teachers.

It will be just as bad as the TSA “show” at the Airport to make you feel safe.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Which proves why $10 an hour 3rd Party rent a cops is even a worse idea than arming teachers.

It will be just as bad as the TSA “show” at the Airport to make you feel safe.

It is pretty hilarious to assume the teachers have a shot against a bloke like this one. They're panicking, students are panicking, a school is not exactly a shooting range and having a clear shot safely is not something that'll be available to them.

I would've stayed outside too, or tried to go nearer to direct the real professionals to the right place sooner. A hand gun against an AR is not something anyone I know would gamble with.

[Delta0311]

Originally Posted by Lups

It is pretty hilarious to assume the teachers have a shot against a bloke like this one. They're panicking, students are panicking, a school is not exactly a shooting range and having a clear shot safely is not something that'll be available to them.

I would've stayed outside too, or tried to go nearer to direct the real professionals to the right place sooner. A hand gun against an AR is not something anyone I know would gamble with.

Bloke like this one? He was a kid with a few weekends at the range; not a battle hardened Navy SEAL. Shooting was inside, which means close quarters. So yes a teacher with some training would have had a shot against him with just a GLOCK, even better shot if teacher was ex military.

By the time the real professionals arrive on the scene the bodies would already have piled up. This is exactly what happened here.


And it would only take a few months (mostly weekends) to turn a teacher into a tactical shooter. Yes it’s possible the military takes people who never held a weapon and turns them into experts everyday.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Which proves why $10 an hour 3rd Party rent a cops is even a worse idea than arming teachers.

It will be just as bad as the TSA “show” at the Airport to make you feel safe.

Except sheriff deputies aren't rent-a-cops. The deputy on video staying outside made around $75K a year, not $10/hour. If there were additional deputies who didn't go in, as reports are indicating, that means the armed, trained police contracted to protect the town did not do so in this case and calls into question their abilities in any situation, school or otherwise.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by Delta0311

Bloke like this one? He was a kid with a few weekends at the range; not a battle hardened Navy SEAL. Shooting was inside, which means close quarters. So yes a teacher with some training would have had a shot against him with just a GLOCK, even better shot if teacher was ex military.

By the time the real professionals arrive on the scene the bodies would already have piled up. This is exactly what happened here.


And it would only take a few months (mostly weekends) to turn a teacher into a tactical shooter. Yes it’s possible the military takes people who never held a weapon and turns them into experts everyday.

I've only been on a knife fight with other kids around (a deranged woman attacked kids who were playing on the school grounds after hours. She stabbed a man who was already on the ground who turned his back on her and she was going after her more when we arrived and since my friend'slittle brother was one of them so we had to act, though my friend froze pretty badly after she spotted the knife) so I can't claim to be an expert but this is what I do know: When someone goes after people you know, and they're running around, getting near enough to act efficiently is hard. People panicking are a hard group to control. Getting even simple instructions through can be extremely difficult.

I have a hard time understanding how one takes aim in a panic with a basically a toy gun when the attacker has all the time and the herd working for him. I got stabbed to my right shoulder on my little adventure because even after I got the bitch away from the man who was down already, getting the kids to obey a simple instruction of running away was too much for them.

You either put well trained swat teams who are experts in analyzing the environment and the panicking masses in to technical gear in every school, or maybe limit the access to these kind of weapons.

[FlaPatsFan]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Except sheriff deputies aren't rent-a-cops. The deputy on video staying outside made around $75K a year, not $10/hour. If there were additional deputies who didn't go in, as reports are indicating, that means the armed, trained police contracted to protect the town did not do so in this case and calls into question their abilities in any situation, school or otherwise.

Normally the minimum Deputies/Officers you want entering a structure under those situations are TWO. For officer safety reasons and to be effective moving towards the threat. Someone always needs to at least be checking their 6, while advancing to make sure the shooter doesn’t double back and surprise them from behind....even this 19yr old.

With that being said I understand him waiting for at least one other backup officer. However he could of at least made some kind of entry to a safe location and relayed info to the units arriving on scene. Which would of helped narrow down the shooters location inside the school. Thus not allowing him to exit.

Also we don’t know what kind of training the Broward County Sheriffs Office does for these types of incidents. Do all their road Deputies get trained on structure entries and building clearing? It isn’t just SWAT who trains like that. Patrol Deputies/Officers are ALWAYS first on scene and have to make split second decisions on what to do. SWAT responds shortly after, unless you have some Patrol guys who are SWAT then they immediately take over and start directing and coordinating entry and perimeter positions.

It sounds like Coral Springs PD was better trained.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by FlaPatsFan

Normally the minimum Deputies/Officers you want entering a structure under those situations are TWO. For officer safety reasons and to be effective moving towards the threat. Someone always needs to at least be checking their 6, while advancing to make sure the shooter doesnÂ’t double back and surprise them from behind....even this 19yr old.

With that being said I understand him waiting for at least one other backup officer. However he could of at least made some kind of entry to a safe location and relayed info to the units arriving on scene. Which would of helped narrow down the shooters location inside the school. Thus not allowing him to exit.

Also we donÂ’t know what kind of training the Broward County Sheriffs Office does for these types of incidents. Do all their road Deputies get trained on structure entries and building clearing? It isnÂ’t just SWAT who trains like that. Patrol Deputies/Officers are ALWAYS first on scene and have to make split second decisions on what to do. SWAT responds shortly after, unless you have some Patrol guys who are SWAT then they immediately take over and start directing and coordinating entry and perimeter positions.

It sounds like Coral Springs PD was better trained.

I agree Coral Springs PD appears to be better prepared to respond to a crisis, either due to training, officer disposition or some combination thereof. That does leave me scratching my head about the millions of dollars spent annually to put police on school campuses if they aren't trained or prepared to respond in a meaningful way to a crisis.

I wouldn't be surprised to see municipalities rethink outsourcing law enforcement to a Sheriff's office in light of reports about BSO's response. I live in a town that outsources to PBSO. Personally, in light of seeing how Coral Springs appears to have responded compared to BSO, I think questions need to be asked about PBSO's preparedness to respond to a crisis, not just at schools, but anywhere. Coral Springs seems to demonstrate that more control over your law enforcement works better than outsourcing to a sheriff, possibly with life and death differences. Maybe this was an isolated case where BSO looked awful and Coral Springs looked better, but it sure invites the question.

[Delta0311]

Originally Posted by Lups

I've only been on a knife fight with other kids around (a deranged woman attacked kids who were playing on the school grounds after hours. She stabbed a man who was already on the ground who turned his back on her and she was going after her more when we arrived and since my friend'slittle brother was one of them so we had to act, though my friend froze pretty badly after she spotted the knife) so I can't claim to be an expert but this is what I do know: When someone goes after people you know, and they're running around, getting near enough to act efficiently is hard. People panicking are a hard group to control. Getting even simple instructions through can be extremely difficult.

I have a hard time understanding how one takes aim in a panic with a basically a toy gun when the attacker has all the time and the herd working for him. I got stabbed to my right shoulder on my little adventure because even after I got the bitch away from the man who was down already, getting the kids to obey a simple instruction of running away was too much for them.

You either put well trained swat teams who are experts in analyzing the environment and the panicking masses in to technical gear in every school, or maybe limit the access to these kind of weapons.

A Glock is not a toy gun. A shot to center mass will pretty much end your day. The AR15 has better accuracy as it is a rifle and better range, and of course a larger magazine. But in close quarters a Glock will do perfectly fine. The AR15 is not fully auto and much like the Glock it fires only as fast as the trigger is pulled. A teacher that is armed would be put through drills to simulate an active shooter scenario. This way the teacher knows what to do when everyone else is panicking.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by Delta0311

A Glock is not a toy gun. A shot to center mass will pretty much end your day. The AR15 has better accuracy as it is a rifle and better range, and of course a larger magazine. But in close quarters a Glock will do perfectly fine. The AR15 is not fully auto and much like the Glock it fires only as fast as the trigger is pulled. A teacher that is armed would be put through drills to simulate an active shooter scenario. This way the teacher knows what to do when everyone else is panicking.

You're correct naturally, but again, who ever would be facing off the shooter would basically be shaking with adrenaline so much he or she would more likely shoot students than the shooter.

And one more thing: How exactly are you guys going to pay for this all? Wouldn't it be cheaper to just take away assault rifles from kids?

[Delta0311]

Originally Posted by Lups

You're correct naturally, but again, who ever would be facing off the shooter would basically be shaking with adrenaline so much he or she would more likely shoot students than the shooter.

And one more thing: How exactly are you guys going to pay for this all? Wouldn't it be cheaper to just take away assault rifles from kids?

Kids can’t legally own an assault rifle. Minimum age to own a rifle is 18, which is the same age that you can join the military.

Again this is why you run drills. So once adrenaline kicks in, muscle memory takes over and you naturally know how to react. I mean you don’t think a soldier in combat is running on adrenaline? The active shooter is also running on adrenaline when he’s shooting, yet he can still hit his target.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by Delta0311

Kids can’t legally own an assault rifle. Minimum age to own a rifle is 18, which is the same age that you can join the military.

Again this is why you run drills. So once adrenaline kicks in, muscle memory takes over and you naturally know how to react. I mean you don’t think a soldier in combat is running on adrenaline? The active shooter is also running on adrenaline when he’s shooting, yet he can still hit his target.

Yes, I am aware of that training helps but an AR 15 makes it easy to just shoot around, and these recent guys apparently have been wearing vests too.

An 18 year old with issues retaliates towards their former school where as 21 year old hopefully would have a different target. It wouldn't stop them completely of course but at this point I think it would be cheaper for your country just to push back the age limit. These incidents are scary as hell for all parents.

[FlaPatsFan]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

I agree Coral Springs PD appears to be better prepared to respond to a crisis, either due to training, officer disposition or some combination thereof. That does leave me scratching my head about the millions of dollars spent annually to put police on school campuses if they aren't trained or prepared to respond in a meaningful way to a crisis.

I wouldn't be surprised to see municipalities rethink outsourcing law enforcement to a Sheriff's office in light of reports about BSO's response. I live in a town that outsources to PBSO. Personally, in light of seeing how Coral Springs appears to have responded compared to BSO, I think questions need to be asked about PBSO's preparedness to respond to a crisis, not just at schools, but anywhere. Coral Springs seems to demonstrate that more control over your law enforcement works better than outsourcing to a sheriff, possibly with life and death differences. Maybe this was an isolated case where BSO looked awful and Coral Springs looked better, but it sure invites the question.

Now you are getting into the process of hiring and training. The better paying Departments and Sheriffs Offices will get better more qualified applicants, thus putting better Officers and Deputies on the streets. The lower paying ones will get the left over applicants who are now on their second, third or even fourth choice of places they wanted to work. As for training, each Sheriff and Police Chief determine how much/what training and equipment to issue to their ppl.

This goes much deeper then 1 or 2 Deputies choosing poor action.

And too the poster who said a Glock is adequate fire power during this type of scenario, it will do but a short barrel rifle is made for close quarter combat and better at long range and short range shots, especially since mostvall are equipped with laser sites which the hand guns issued to LEOs are not.

And one last thing....if you have never shot any type of gun in a high stress situation such as this it is not easy! It takes long hours of constant shooting and breathing techniques to control yourself and where that bullet goes. If you shoot you are responsible for every bullet coming out of your gun!!!! Huge liability!!!

[KE///BI]

And if this thread holds weight...Law enforcement failed at all levels.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by are0lies

Given hindsight, look at what happened during that bank holdup in Los Angeles. Police had mostly automatic pistols and shotguns, and had to source out for automatic rifles to counter what was being used against them. Now, I believe, most LEOs carry AR-15s.

Right, but that was a far different situation. In LA you had two guys with fully automatic weapons, body armor, and working in tandem. I understand what you mean, but comparing that situation to a single kid with a semi auto AR-15 just isn't the same. Now he might not have known that, but anybody can tell the distinction between full auto/semi auto, and he should have done SOMETHING. That was his job.

If the guy didn't understand the perils that come with being an officer, there are a zillion other occupations he could have chosen.

[jgoens]

Originally Posted by KE///BI

And if this thread holds weight...Law enforcement failed at all levels.

Exactly.

[Spa2k]

At the time the shooting started, no one knew if it was one or more shooters. Right or wrong, that certainly had to figure into the decision-making process of the first officers on the scene.

[Delta0311]

Originally Posted by Lups

Yes, I am aware of that training helps but an AR 15 makes it easy to just shoot around, and these recent guys apparently have been wearing vests too.

An 18 year old with issues retaliates towards their former school where as 21 year old hopefully would have a different target. It wouldn't stop them completely of course but at this point I think it would be cheaper for your country just to push back the age limit. These incidents are scary as hell for all parents.

You do realize with a bit of training he could have done just as much damage with a hang gun and a couple of magazines. At close quarters a .40 round will put a quick end to you. How does the AR15 make it easy to just shoot around? A handgun is actually a lot easier to maneuver with in tight quarters do to its size. The AR15 is pretty bulky actually. And inside a classroom it does not matter if you have a handgun or a AR15. Both are semi automatic and at short range both are equally lethal. The big plus of the AR15 in that case is the fact you won’t have to reload as often due to magazine size.