[BMRGUY]

Does anyone know the technical reason why the jb4 needs a power tap and the stage 1 does not? I'm an engineer thus my inquisitive side is coming out.

It seems to me this little requirement is what tends to sway people away from the jb4 to stage 1... I am one if those who don't want ANY physical installation trace.

[rickinaz]

Originally Posted by BMRGUY

Does anyone know the technical reason why the jb4 needs a power tap and the stage 1 does not? I'm an engineer thus my inquisitive side is coming out.

It seems to me this little requirement is what tends to sway people away from the jb4 to stage 1... I am one if those who don't want ANY physical installation trace.

From what I've gleaned from this forum, whether you leave a physical trace or not, the diagnostic system will leave electronic bread crumbs for BMW to find if they look.

[jair_onsa]

Originally Posted by rickinaz

From what I've gleaned from this forum, whether you leave a physical trace or not, the diagnostic system will leave electronic bread crumbs for BMW to find if they look.

As far as I know, that hasn't happened to anybody yet. It will be easier to find a split wire than to look and prove you had a tune installed at some point.

[cryptz]

are you sure you tap for the 12v power? i am pretty sure there is a 12v lug you go on, you do tap the CAN wire, which is why i didnt do it..

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by cryptz

are you sure you tap for the 12v power? i am pretty sure there is a 12v lug you go on, you do tap the CAN wire, which is why i didnt do it..

This.

Although I think he was asking why the need for power at all. That I'm not sure. Maybe for logging and other features like map changing.

[r33_RGSport]

@BMRGUY, I think that is a question to the maker. You can email them or ask at N54tech.com forum.

[BMRGUY]

I made a possible false assumption the taps were for power.

It's an interesting approach bms took to interface with the computer. CAN is a simple messaging bus protocol (communication method for systems and sub systems). It seems the CAN standard has no provision for encryption or other security means to protect the communications. Seems this would be the secret sauce for the jb4 to either monitor or intercept communications between systems and sub systems and interface with items like the steering wheel to change maps. Thus this would be needed to alter parameters that control related and unrelated systems. Seems like the jb4 is taking the place of the ecu by using this method..which would be like flashing your ecu with new parameters... Interesting
... Of course this is all hypothesis and interpretation based I What I have read..

[G30 B58]

Good to know.

The physical evidence is what will keep me from JB4 vs Stage 1.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

BMS actually has an F30 EWG specific harness and board in testing that does not require a 12v connection. But what you're thinking of is not the 12v connection it's the CANbus wires. Just connect them inside the harness where its covered by factory conduit. Easy.

[BMRGUY]

Yes... ^ a couple of messages up I admitted I made a false assumption. the challenge is it still leaves a physical trace. But after reading about the CAN protocol I see why the need (good approach to intercepting and altering engine parameters) thus I also see why there will be no alternative to tapping into the can layer of the car... Good design but for me jb4 would not be an option due to the physical trace left behind after removing the unit.

It's nice there is an alternative but would be real nice to have jb4 capabilities without any physical trace.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by BMRGUY

Yes... ^ a couple of messages up I admitted I made a false assumption. the challenge is it still leaves a physical trace. But after reading about the CAN protocol I see why the need (good approach to intercepting and altering engine parameters) thus I also see why there will be no alternative to tapping into the can layer of the car... Good design but for me jb4 would not be an option due to the physical trace left behind after removing the unit.

It's nice there is an alternative but would be real nice to have jb4 capabilities without any physical trace.

If you tap them under the conduit it's not really easy for them to find the two tiny holes once the removable posi-taps are unscrewed.

But look at it this way. To avoid the hidden mass airflow detection codes you need to do one of three things. Run 3.5psi or less so they are not triggered like the BMS Stage1, intercept the MAF sensor wires directly to alter their signal like Dinan claims to do, or use the CANbus to intercept and alter the signal like the JB4 does. There is no free lunch here.

So if you don't intercept CAN then you basically need to run no more than BMS Stage1 power levels to avoid detections within the DME. And unlike the wires where someone has to go look for them any tech can see the software detection when they connect to the OBBII port.

Mike

[BMRGUY]

Mike... I agree with most solutions there is never "any free lunch". Thanks for the informative information.

[cryptz]

mike, first let me say sorry for never checking this ahead of time. but with all the hesitation around the splice have you considered another approach? I can only assume that somewhere those CAN wires go to an ecu harness or plug. for the sake of argument lets say there are 50 pins on that plug. couldn't you make a passthrough 50 pin connector that had the two jb4 can wires tapped off of your provided connector, making it plug and play? I paid 800 for a tune from vrtuning, at that price point I would have bought the jb4 instead if I didn't have to splice the wires. I cannot imagine that connector would cost 2-300 bucks once you reach a reasonable qty. dinans tune basically does what I am describing in terms of providing you with a passthrough "tapped" connector. I am only assuming the can wires are accounted for in their harness. and of course if you went to that trouble for the can wires you could probably do it for all of your wires at the ecu connection instead of the individual sensors. I have seen atleast a dozen people echo my concerns with splicing. I would still switch at this point if you offered it..

[FC4]

Originally Posted by cryptz

mike, first let me say sorry for never checking this ahead of time. but with all the hesitation around the splice have you considered another approach? I can only assume that somewhere those CAN wires go to an ecu harness or plug. for the sake of argument lets say there are 50 pins on that plug. couldn't you make a passthrough 50 pin connector that had the two jb4 can wires tapped off of your provided connector, making it plug and play? I paid 800 for a tune from vrtuning, at that price point I would have bought the jb4 instead if I didn't have to splice the wires. I cannot imagine that connector would cost 2-300 bucks once you reach a reasonable qty. dinans tune basically does what I am describing in terms of providing you with a passthrough "tapped" connector. I am only assuming the can wires are accounted for in their harness. and of course if you went to that trouble for the can wires you could probably do it for all of your wires at the ecu connection instead of the individual sensors. I have seen atleast a dozen people echo my concerns with splicing. I would still switch at this point if you offered it..

If you want something similar to the Dinan tune, get the Stage 1 plug-and-play from BMS...nothing to tap into. They do the same exact thing, except you get significantly more performance from the BMS Stage 1.

[cryptz]

what car is that dyno from, I thought the new dinan tune (the one just released this week) made more then stage 1 on the newer cars

[BMRGUY]

It's from a m235... The guy ended up getting a refund from Dinan after the dyno...definitely stage 1 is the best solution out there for the money.

I like the logging and monitoring features of the jb4. I don't care for the map switching from the steering wheel and honestly won't even make any more mods other than the tune (except exhaust).

Originally Posted by cryptz

what car is that dyno from, I thought the new dinan tune (the one just released this week) made more then stage 1 on the newer cars

[FC4]

Originally Posted by cryptz

what car is that dyno from, I thought the new dinan tune (the one just released this week) made more then stage 1 on the newer cars

They released it a few weeks ago for the M235i, then for the EWG F3x (don't know why the delay, since the M235i is EWG as well).

Also note that the Dinan dyno is also with M Performance Exhaust on the car which is good for maybe 5 RWHP, where as the BMS did not. Still, it's down 10 RWHP and 20 RWTQ from peak figures and it's even worse if you look at some points in the mid-range.

[r33_RGSport]

Originally Posted by cryptz

mike, first let me say sorry for never checking this ahead of time. but with all the hesitation around the splice have you considered another approach? I can only assume that somewhere those CAN wires go to an ecu harness or plug. for the sake of argument lets say there are 50 pins on that plug. couldn't you make a passthrough 50 pin connector that had the two jb4 can wires tapped off of your provided connector, making it plug and play? I paid 800 for a tune from vrtuning, at that price point I would have bought the jb4 instead if I didn't have to splice the wires. I cannot imagine that connector would cost 2-300 bucks once you reach a reasonable qty. dinans tune basically does what I am describing in terms of providing you with a passthrough "tapped" connector. I am only assuming the can wires are accounted for in their harness. and of course if you went to that trouble for the can wires you could probably do it for all of your wires at the ecu connection instead of the individual sensors. I have seen atleast a dozen people echo my concerns with splicing. I would still switch at this point if you offered it..

Tapping or not tapping. If BMW NA want to find a fault that caused the engine to blow up, they will find it.
But for you to opt out on the bang for the bucks and the best plug n play piggy back system that started it all, I would say you are missing out.

[Krelle]

Originally Posted by FC4

They released it a few weeks ago for the M235i, then for the EWG F3x (don't know why the delay, since the M235i is EWG as well).

Also note that the Dinan dyno is also with M Performance Exhaust on the car which is good for maybe 5 RWHP, where as the BMS did not. Still, it's down 10 RWHP and 20 RWTQ from peak figures and it's even worse if you look at some points in the mid-range.

M-exhaust or not, you won't see the difference in power.
This exhaust is just for show + sound.
/Krelle

[cryptz]

does anyone know if the canbus wiring harness (what jb4 taps) is part of the main wiring harness or something else from a bmw part# standpoint. i am going to try and acquire the male and female plug for the canbus and just make my own jumper wire and splice my jumper.. it looks like there are only 12 wires on that stock harness, shouldnt be too hard to make if i have the right plastic connectors.

[djw007]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

BMS actually has an F30 EWG specific harness and board in testing that does not require a 12v connection. But what you're thinking of is not the 12v connection it's the CANbus wires. Just connect them inside the harness where its covered by factory conduit. Easy.

Unfortunately it leaves very visible damage to the wiring insulation as i found out whilst removing mine the other day. i re taped the cable harness with black tape so it is covered, however if they want to find evidence it will be really easy for them..

[Krelle]

Originally Posted by djw007

Unfortunately it leaves very visible damage to the wiring insulation as i found out whilst removing mine the other day. i re taped the cable harness with black tape so it is covered, however if they want to find evidence it will be really easy for them..

wonder why BMS don't connect directly to the OBDII port as in the attached picture?
/Krelle