[SamS]

I always thought the N52 was rather lame, especially under 4500rpm. Can't believe R&T actually think it's something to get excited about.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by SamS

I always thought the N52 was rather lame, especially under 4500rpm. Can't believe R&T actually think it's something to get excited about.

Totally agree.

But I admit, that while the N52 is chugging along and producing unsatisfying thrust, it sounds very good.

I just don't get how we can place so much value on sound that it can trump so many other factors in what we want from an engine/car.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I just don't get how we can place so much value on sound that it can trump so many other factors in what we want from an engine/car.

It's all about what's important to you. Sound is just another sensory input that can be quite important to people. I'm looking at exhaust systems for my 335i to improve the sound - it's just one more way to derive pleasure from driving it.

For some, economy is the most important, and they buy a Prius. If you have any taste at all, appreciated the look of cars, or appreciated anything about them more than "is has 4 wheels" you wouldn't buy one - but for some that "economy" plus the green factor is enough to sway them.

[Longwong]

What people don't seem to get or maybe most don't feel this way but there is an enjoyment factor out of unwinding a NA engine, hearing the sounds it makes and rowing through the gears just to enjoy the linear delivery and sound of the engine. Numbers are not the whole story. Its why some people like myself love the m3 and s65 engine. To me the delivery of power getting more and more and more to 8400 and the sound it makes really makes the enjoyment factor huge to me. I rev the engine out just for the experience and has nothing to do with how fast I get there. That is why I enjoy driving the n52 cars as loaners-I still get a fun experience. The f30 328's are simply boring. They are faster but boring. No benefit to revving, no sound no linear feeling. Just boring. It is better performer in everyway but I buy a car to enjoy and not to have the best performer. That is why I still like the m3 over the c63 AMG PP, vettes or any other turbo car. To me its about the total package of enjoyment which involves so much more than the numbers

[mxa121]

Interesting comparison, it had to be done. Im still waiting on the 335 comparison. That will be good.

I drove an n52, it was great. I thoroughly enjoyed it. But, I couldn't wait to get my n54 back.

[crex]

Originally Posted by Longwong

What people don't seem to get or maybe most don't feel this way but there is an enjoyment factor out of unwinding a NA engine, hearing the sounds it makes and rowing through the gears just to enjoy the linear delivery and sound of the engine. Numbers are not the whole story. Its why some people like myself love the m3 and s65 engine. To me the delivery of power getting more and more and more to 8400 and the sound it makes really makes the enjoyment factor huge to me. I rev the engine out just for the experience and has nothing to do with how fast I get there. That is why I enjoy driving the n52 cars as loaners-I still get a fun experience. The f30 328's are simply boring. They are faster but boring. No benefit to revving, no sound no linear feeling. Just boring. It is better performer in everyway but I buy a car to enjoy and not to have the best performer. That is why I still like the m3 over the c63 AMG PP, vettes or any other turbo car. To me its about the total package of enjoyment which involves so much more than the numbers

I agree. While I love the 135i, my next car will be a na motor even if it's slower. I prefer the experience over the sheer power.

[4nroots]

Originally Posted by giggity317

Having come from a e92 M3 with competition package, DCT, and M Performance exhaust I can say that my current 328 F30 puts the same smile on my face. The only thing I miss about the M3 is the sound, I can't deny that. Driving the M3, I'd get to my destination and have to change my pants...

This observation is very surprising and very difficult to believe

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by SamS

I always thought the N52 was rather lame, especially under 4500rpm. Can't believe R&T actually think it's something to get excited about.

Chances are you had an auto.

[SamS]

Originally Posted by KORALLROT

Chances are you had an auto.

I've driven both. Had more fun in a 128i, but it wasn't because of the N52.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by Longwong

What people don't seem to get or maybe most don't feel this way but there is an enjoyment factor out of unwinding a NA engine, hearing the sounds it makes and rowing through the gears just to enjoy the linear delivery and sound of the engine. Numbers are not the whole story. Its why some people like myself love the m3 and s65 engine. To me the delivery of power getting more and more and more to 8400 and the sound it makes really makes the enjoyment factor huge to me. I rev the engine out just for the experience and has nothing to do with how fast I get there. That is why I enjoy driving the n52 cars as loaners-I still get a fun experience. The f30 328's are simply boring. They are faster but boring. No benefit to revving, no sound no linear feeling. Just boring. It is better performer in everyway but I buy a car to enjoy and not to have the best performer. That is why I still like the m3 over the c63 AMG PP, vettes or any other turbo car. To me its about the total package of enjoyment which involves so much more than the numbers

Yup. I have a Mazda 3 as my daily beater, and can not being to tell you how fun it is to rev. I just smack it around and rev all the way to 6k, and she is happy. Reminds me of my n52 330i. Never worried about running out of breath. The n55 in my other car is much more powerful obviously, but it's just not the same experience/fun factor. Can't say I dislike the low end torque. But for revving, gimme a NA all day long.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by SamS

I've driven both. Had more fun in a 128i, but it wasn't because of the N52.

Cool. Which one did you own day in day out?

[Falafel Combo]

Also that e90 color combo is hideous!

[r3dbimmer89]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Not sure why your rant is pointed at me.

I like the way the acceleration of my F30 FEELS. I like the lighter weight and positioning of the N20 over the front axle FEELS when abruptly changing direction. I like the FEEL of the airier cabin. I like the FEEL of the car remaining composed over bumps and irregular pavement.

I did not like the FEEL of the steering at first, being a bit light and a bit lacking in feedback-I like the FEEL of it now with my current wheel/tire/spring combo. I did not like the FEEL of a teence too much body roll-again-it's feeling about right-just needs a rearsway bar.

Is it the car I drive when I am all about FEELING? No, it was not bought to be. When it is all about FEELING I drive the E36/7, from the smell of the Nappa, the feel of the tiny Euro-airbag steering wheel, the FEELING of being inches off the ground, the FEELING of having the steering, brakes, and gas pedal hard wired to my brain. Yeah-that's the car I go for.

Thinking the E90 OR F30 is some amazing SPORTS CAR is comical. These are sedans that happen to have some good bones for drivers with some sporting intentions. If you are that obsessed with FEEL-you can get that in a used Miata.

I think you're missing the point of the article as well as that guy's response. People fell in love and raved over the 3 series for the past 30 years because of it's ability to do everything you mentioned with two different cars with one complete package. 3ers were never Porsches but they were some of the best handling 4 doors you could buy with a reasonable cost.

Not everyone has the ability to own or maintain two cars so in the past the 3er was perfect for those who wanted an excellent handling sports sedan. The F30 isn't as bad as people make, being that it's just an evolution of an E90 but it doesn't feel as connected as every 3er before. The same feeling just isn't there and it's sad that I have to still buy a Miata to have fun when already spending over $50k for a sports sedan.

It's obvious that BMW isn't focusing on what it used to and now is just focusing on getting more sales (ahem F10 M5)....if BMW continues building soft cars to please badge whores who would swap to MB for a better lease deal then there isn't any point in buying a BMW...at least Lexus has bullet proof reliability....

[Phaeron]

Originally Posted by kunal_d

I think it's safe to say that BMW knows a thing or two about building 4-cyl turbo motors. They did make this one after all. Hey if it's good enough for Formula 1...

Funny thing is that was one of the most powerful engine to be in F1...... 1300hp from a 4 cyclinder!

[Kayani_1]

+1

Anyone who can't tell the difference between the two in favor of E90 for better driving dynamics and fun to drive ratio is wearing a bit of purchase based bias blinders.

The F30 335i has no advantage over E9x 335i at all. In fact I find it inferior due to lack of better driving dynamics. At least with the F30 328i the bitter pill of poor engine NVH and lack of driving feel/feedback a bit easier to swallow thanks to improvement in power level and gas mileage.

Originally Posted by KORALLROT

"Nope. Our decision was unanimous: We liked the old car better, if only by a slight margin. And later, when we hopped into a post-face-lift, Sport-package-equipped E90 328i, it was game over for the F30. No contest. "


Spot on.

overall I agree with their conclusion. I still prefer the f30 design. By far. Everything else goes to the e90.


.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by dinonz

It's all about what's important to you. Sound is just another sensory input that can be quite important to people. I'm looking at exhaust systems for my 335i to improve the sound - it's just one more way to derive pleasure from driving it.

For some, economy is the most important, and they buy a Prius. If you have any taste at all, appreciated the look of cars, or appreciated anything about them more than "is has 4 wheels" you wouldn't buy one - but for some that "economy" plus the green factor is enough to sway them.

Sound is of course important to me. I put proper exhausts on 9x out of 10 cars I have had, mulling over the right components for the ideal sound.

But lets not make light of torque, of the flexibility the N20 brings of tq down low but still pulls to redline and giving nearly identical performance you had to go to the M3 to get in 1999.

Originally Posted by Longwong

What people don't seem to get or maybe most don't feel this way but there is an enjoyment factor out of unwinding a NA engine, hearing the sounds it makes and rowing through the gears just to enjoy the linear delivery and sound of the engine. Numbers are not the whole story. Its why some people like myself love the m3 and s65 engine. To me the delivery of power getting more and more and more to 8400 and the sound it makes really makes the enjoyment factor huge to me. I rev the engine out just for the experience and has nothing to do with how fast I get there. That is why I enjoy driving the n52 cars as loaners-I still get a fun experience. The f30 328's are simply boring. They are faster but boring. No benefit to revving, no sound no linear feeling. Just boring. It is better performer in everyway but I buy a car to enjoy and not to have the best performer. That is why I still like the m3 over the c63 AMG PP, vettes or any other turbo car. To me its about the total package of enjoyment which involves so much more than the numbers

You enjoy N52 loaners and find the F30 boring. I enjoy the SOUND of the N52 loaners but find them just as boring as the F30 loaners I have had.

Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89

I think you're missing the point of the article as well as that guy's response. People fell in love and raved over the 3 series for the past 30 years because of it's ability to do everything you mentioned with two different cars with one complete package. 3ers were never Porsches but they were some of the best handling 4 doors you could buy with a reasonable cost.

Not everyone has the ability to own or maintain two cars so in the past the 3er was perfect for those who wanted an excellent handling sports sedan. The F30 isn't as bad as people make, being that it's just an evolution of an E90 but it doesn't feel as connected as every 3er before. The same feeling just isn't there and it's sad that I have to still buy a Miata to have fun when already spending over $50k for a sports sedan.

It's obvious that BMW isn't focusing on what it used to and now is just focusing on getting more sales (ahem F10 M5)....if BMW continues building soft cars to please badge whores who would swap to MB for a better lease deal then there isn't any point in buying a BMW...at least Lexus has bullet proof reliability....

I did not miss the point of the article.

Someone made a statement that was a mix of opinion and fact. I am not here to dispute someones opinion and change it to mine. But an incorrect statement dressed up as a fact, yeah I comment on it. That is all. Reading that article and saying factually "The only thing they find superior to the E90 is styling". I am well aware of what the E90 does better than the F30. I didn't need a quick blurb from a magazine to tell me. The difference is, a lot of E90 people feel validated and want to come here and show us what we likely already know. If I find something where a magazine raves about the F30, says its better in some way to it's predecessor, I don't feel the need to post about it in the E90 section. If the test had gone the other way and they said the F30 demolishes the E90, would not even occur to me to post it anywhere other than the F30 section. Meanwhile, its been posted about 8x on this forum-often by E90 owners and on the other BMW boards, again in the F30 section by E90 owners. Can you explain to me-why is that? Aren't we all supposed to be happy and confident in our own buying decisions?

[Phaeron]

Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89

I think you're missing the point of the article as well as that guy's response. People fell in love and raved over the 3 series for the past 30 years because of it's ability to do everything you mentioned with two different cars with one complete package. 3ers were never Porsches but they were some of the best handling 4 doors you could buy with a reasonable cost.

Ugh... that is untrue. the 3 series for the longest time have been beaten in handling by Subarus and Mistubishis in the form of the Ralliarts/WRX and EVO/STI. In fact it was so bad because one editor of C&D was routinely arguing that the 3 series had no business being given the accolades because the EVO was better in performance driving.

The bar that the 3 series set was its comfort+performance. The issue that was bogging the E90 was it road rough compared to every other performance car out there. In fact even now a Camaro ZL1 runs softer then a E92 335i coupe yet it has drivers flatter and better. Both are at the same Price point and up until the 4 series the 3 coupe was still in competition with that.

To have a 50k Camaro have a more luxurious ride and outperform a BMW should be disgraceful.

Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89

Not everyone has the ability to own or maintain two cars so in the past the 3er was perfect for those who wanted an excellent handling sports sedan. The F30 isn't as bad as people make, being that it's just an evolution of an E90 but it doesn't feel as connected as every 3er before. The same feeling just isn't there and it's sad that I have to still buy a Miata to have fun when already spending over $50k for a sports sedan.

We must be living in two seperate world. If you were talking about the E46 or hell the E30 M3 I would agree but the E90? the miata is a good feel but for connection.. there is NO car and I mean no car that beats a Lotus Exige. You want to feel what a connection to the road is (its odd because I actively race and do not know what you define as "Connected to the road") that is a Lotus. Even a Miata is a waste of time. Drives okay but unless you track it you will never experience what it can do.

But I ask what you define as "FUN" because I have a hard time believing that people driving their cars on the street in the US can actually have fun with their cars. I mean unless you are driving illegally enough that a police officer would arrest you and impound your car odds are you are never experiencing 10% of your car...

Maybe it is a hard concept but unless you actually either track your car or recklessly drive down regulated roads I do not see how you can define to me a sports car feel.

Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89

It's obvious that BMW isn't focusing on what it used to and now is just focusing on getting more sales (ahem F10 M5)....if BMW continues building soft cars to please badge whores who would swap to MB for a better lease deal then there isn't any point in buying a BMW...at least Lexus has bullet proof reliability....

I do not agree. BMW has always been about the balance of Luxury and Performance. A great example is the E92 M3 vs a 911. Performance wise the 911 beats its ass but the M3 has always been given the awards of being the better car because it drove "better" . The 911 has better connection to the road, better steering (the E92 M3's steering was described as numb and on par with an Audi EPS despite being a hydraulic steering wheel.), is faster, and has better brakes. The M3... whiles it performance isn't as good the luxury of the ride is better and it drives smoother.

What I gather here is people who talk about sporty drives and "connection to the road" want the car to essentially drive rough. this isn't about driving dynamics because if you do not track you car you can't experience the limits. So what you and the E90 crowd are saying is you want a car that makes you feel like your pushing the car hard when in reality you are doing nothing to get that experience.

And I really believe your MX5 Miata seals the deal on my theory. The "sporty" feel it gives on normal street driving is just its hard ass suspension. Other then that if you just drive it on the street it never really feels any better or worse then an RX8 or 350z other then being lighter.

[Doctor///M]

Couldn't agree more with this article, mind you I've only experienced the F30 as a loaner on two occasions.

[elistan]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Anyone who can't tell the difference between the two in favor of E90 for better driving dynamics and fun to drive ratio is wearing a bit of purchase based bias blinders.

Or perhaps the opposite? Going into a purchase decision with never ever having driven a BMW before in my life - I found the F30 328i to be much more exciting to drive than the E90 328i. I drove an E90 and found it so blah that I wrote off BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine" as just so much hype. Then I drove an F30 a year later and put a deposit down. YMMV obviously, but keep in mind that E90 owners can have just as much purchase based bias blinders as F30 owners.

(In case you're curious, this preference for the F30 over the E90 for driving dynamics comes from a guy who has autocrossed cars like an Elise, Boxster S and S2000, and has tracked vehicles like a 944, S2000 and CBR600RR. That's not an appeal to authority, it's just to give an indication of what sort of cars I enjoy. I like driving the F30 so much I'm itching to do a track day with it but that's not what I got it for so I'm keeping the temptation in check.)

(Oh, and honestly, both the E90 and F30 are so freakin' quiet anyway that while I can understand somebody's preference for an I6 over an I4 [my favorite is an air-cooled flat-6, fwiw] I don't care one whit for that preference. They're both essentially silent to me. I wish the N20 had more of that NVH so I could better feel/hear what it's doing. It needs solid motor mounts or an ETD or something. And a much louder exhaust and intake, although I know the turbo quiets those down a little bit. Or one of those sound induction tubes from the intake to the cabin. Or heck, even the fake stereo noise the M5 does.)

[Longwong]

[QUOTE=Jamesons Viggen;14276529]Sound is of course important to me. I put proper exhausts on 9x out of 10 cars I have had, mulling over the right components for the ideal sound.

But lets not make light of torque, of the flexibility the N20 brings of tq down low but still pulls to redline and giving nearly identical performance you had to go to the M3 to get in 1999.





You enjoy N52 loaners and find the F30 boring. I enjoy the SOUND of the N52 loaners but find them just as boring as the F30 loaners I have had.
QUOTE]

How come in ever thread I ever notice someone so insecure about himself and his car it is you and your 328i? The entry level bmw is not the best thing since sliced bread, especially the f30. Not sure why you defend it to death? Why don't you appreciate some points people make. You have a 4 cylinder engine with 240hp. Try to appreciate other points of view and not get so defensive as it really shows how insecure you are about ownership of the very entry level into owning a bmw.

[hyperboost]

after compare all the stats, and F30 only improves 2mpg?! I expected more!
I bet R&T drove the cars in spirited fashion as we would.

[Phaeron]

[QUOTE=Longwong;14276833]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Sound is of course important to me. I put proper exhausts on 9x out of 10 cars I have had, mulling over the right components for the ideal sound.

But lets not make light of torque, of the flexibility the N20 brings of tq down low but still pulls to redline and giving nearly identical performance you had to go to the M3 to get in 1999.





You enjoy N52 loaners and find the F30 boring. I enjoy the SOUND of the N52 loaners but find them just as boring as the F30 loaners I have had.
QUOTE]

How come in ever thread I ever notice someone so insecure about himself and his car it is you and your 328i? The entry level bmw is not the best thing since sliced bread, especially the f30. Not sure why you defend it to death? Why don't you appreciate some points people make. You have a 4 cylinder engine with 240hp. Try to appreciate other points of view and not get so defensive as it really shows how insecure you are about ownership of the very entry level into owning a bmw.

i really do not understand your point when you drive a car that lost a comparison to the Mazda RX8.... Remember you drive a car that got stomped by a Boss 302 and Chevy has a camaro that destroys everything in BMW's line up from regular series to the M division. So the "you drive entry!" really looks stupid when some "Poor guy" rolls up with his 45k car and annihilates you in your 65k+ car.

Let's put somethings into perspective the M3 started off as a 4 cylinder. While the M3 is immaculate in many ways it tends to be a car that is shit on by its owner base that has very little capacity to drive it.

It has nothing to do with defensiveness. For me it shows me that the BMW community are as much driving enthusiasts as soccer moms. It has some good people but many are just the common "I drive a beemer which means i am a driving elite.". I haven't scene so much ignorance about driving dynamics in my life.. Hell, the 18yrs in the Civic Si and Evo forums have a better understanding of racing capacity because they actually like their cars and love driving and tracking them.

This community just likes the status of their car and arguing over the car being "worthy of their discerning capabilities", while almost never really doing anything but relegating their BMWs to expensive point A to point B cars.

"OMG I am such a driving enthusiast as i drive my local highway at 65mph in a straight line! I must have a 6 cylinder because i need a car that I will never drive faster then the regulated speed limit!"