[batislav]

Originally Posted by Mark_K

One more possible cause is that 335i rarely exists in Europe and it is viewed as an exotic. People who can afford those are probably not driving them daily and can't care less if the fuel pump goes out. The bestselling 3 series is 320d with a lot less gizmos in the cabin (talking about E90) and that one is possibly 10 times more reliable (on average) than a fully loaded with high-tech pushing-the-envelope N54 335i.

Yeah, people in the US calling BMW a performance brand always sounds a little funny to me considering how many BMWs with small engines you see in Europe. Not that they perform badly, but performance isn't the first thing I think of with a 318d.

[SGScuba]

Originally Posted by pdxBeav

I don't want to debate the quality of GM, but I'm not sure the facts support your statement. I believe GM is the 2nd largest auto manufacturer in the world and most of their sales are outside the US.

Originally Posted by batislav

Their sales successes are in a different segment than the Germans. Cadillac competing with the Germans is a bigger barrier than Chevrolet competing with Skoda.

Yeah, I could have been clearer in my statement - my apologies. For the market segment that Audi, BMW & MB are in, GM hasn't got a brand that effectively competes outside the US. They've sold Saab; Vauxhall, Opel and even Chevrolet have more limited appeal and I don't see Cadillac get traction outside the US either.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by batislav

Sure, to clarify.

I'm not trying to give the impression that I see the ATS as a failure. I just think that calling it successful is premature. None of us have driven the car, and we have to give it time to sell decent numbers before handing out any trophies. I've been in enough cars that reviewers have liked that I didn't like that reviews are of minimal significance to my individual appraisal of a car.

I don't care much about whether the car is as good as it says or better/worse. As I've said, I think it's ugly so I wouldn't buy it even if it was universally appraised as "best in class."

It's the comparison and the number crunching that confuses me. Granted we're looking at a North American bias where the 3 series is looked as a performance car, and clearly Cadillac is looking at those aspects when designing the ATS, but the 3 series has global sales strength as much from their small engines (not offered in the US) as anything else. I spend a couple months a year in Europe and many people see it as a good car for families, as much as anything else. So, while performance is important to me, I know it's not as important to everyone one else and lots of other factors go into the decision to purchase a car.

Given the discussions on the forum where people are looking at technical specs, performance numbers, after market tuning potential, etc. it shows that the parameters being used for evaluation here don't necessarily translate into the needs of most consumers. So when I throw up numbers to say "hold on a minute" it's to say "look this isn't an obvious choice ATS > 3 series, so ATS will win."

As for the dealer experience. I'm 30, I don't know much about changes in GM/Ford, etc over the years. I've been going into dealerships as a customer for 7 years. I'm very happy with my dealer. Communication is easy and instantaneous. I've never been misled on anything. They have comfortable facilities. Service has taken my car for minor tweaks (wipers, etc.) without an appointment and without charging. I've had an M3 as a loaner. They are never intrusive, etc, etc. GM has enough issues with their dealer network (lawsuits, etc.) that I don't think they can ensure the level of service people from brands like BMW/Mercedes often expect.

One example of service: wife bought a 335d in 2010. There was a power delay in 2nd that came up only intermittently. Took it to the dealer and they had the service manager sit in the car while we demonstrated the problem. They took things apart and found a insufficient seal on the transmission resulting in pressure fluctuations. Everything was fixed and returned to my wife in less than 24 hours.

Obviously, there are exceptions to the level of service, but I think in any decent sized metropolitan area (750,000+) it is easier to find good service with "the Germans." Then again I admit I could be biased--but I've been in Cadillac dealerships in Columbus, Cleveland and Cincinnati (in-laws only buy GM) and have never been impressed. Felt very "car salesmeny."

As for my use of the word curiosity, I mean it in a literal sense. I'm curious about the car and what GM will do with it.

And in conclusion, with everything I've said, I know I'm not the average consumer so I don't know if people will assess the ATS like I do or in another manner. So, I think best to wait and see.

This is super long and I don't want to overwhelm the thread. I'd be happy to continue in PM if you'd like.

I don't mind long post, as I'm sure you know, you've seen many of mine.

Your clarification is sound.
I agree, judging it an "all around" success is very premature, because it is about sales numbers after all.
To be a "success" it has to sell and make a profit for GM/Cadillac.

So far, we have preliminary positive reveiws saying that this ATS may be a success. And, so far the early testing shows very favorably.
Now, it's up to the buying public to decide if GM has a winner.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by bimmerjph

Quit acting like GM doesn't deserve the stigma that it has. They did it to themselves through years of uncompetitive products. People don't have to like GM even if they actually do make the best cars in the world. We as Americans have no obligation towards them. Now am I saying that GM has never made a good car? No. I am saying that just because someone has an unfavorable view of them does make them snobby, closed minded, or less of an American. I am f**king tired of this sentiment.

You're taking this a bit personally if you think you're part of the brand loyal snobs. If you're not one of those, then those who posted that kind of comment are not talking about you.

However, if you're a person who will never even consider a GM or Cadillac product that is directly in competition to the type of automobile you drive, then it's fair to wonder and ask, why you wouldn't?

If you're a driving and car enthusiast, then you likely follow what goes on in the industry. If so, then you know there have been huge changes in how the American auto industry has responded to how it has been viewed by some over the past. Those changes are and have been implemented to address those past concerns.
To me, that's hugely positive. A massive industry is addressing what the buying public is asking for. That's not a negative in any way.
So, anyone who dismisses that change does it for what reason?
Do they simply want the changes to succeed?
Do those people feel their brand is threatened?
What is it?

If one simply doesn't like the appearance of the car, that's fine. We all have our own tastes. How a vehicle looks is a very important aspect to making a purchase, obviously. Perhaps a person just doesn't like how it drives, or the ergo's are all wrong for them, or the interior colors suck, they may not like the cup holders. Those are all acceptable reasons for not wanting a certain car.

But if one simply won't even look at and test drive an automobile directly targeted at the type of car he/she already drives, then it calls into question why they won't. That's all.
Many people are brand loyal. That's fine as well. But most people aren't auto enthusiasts either. They go with what they know.
I don't fall into that group.
I love cars, especially cars designed with driving enthusiasm as a top priority.

If you're not a snob, I accept your assertion.

Just for reference, here is the definition from Webster, just in case one needs clarification.

Definition of SNOB

1
British : cobbler
2
: one who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those regarded as social superiors
3
a : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior
b : one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste
See snob defined for English-language learners »
See snob defined for kids »

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by SGScuba

GM might cut it in the US because some buyers are prepared to look at bang-for-buck compared with other brands like Audi/VW, BMW & MB.

Unfortunately, as far as I can tell (and I travel regularly within Asia and several times a year to Europe), GM doesn't cut it in many non-US markets. Too well-deserved a bad reputation - from products to service to reliability - adding up to poor brand perception and low resale value.

Unlike the German brands which are highly desired products and sell well in Asia (Europe is a given), and so have bigger markets for economies of scale.

Outside the US, the ATS may be nothing more than a curiosity.

Your conclusion may be true for the ATS, but it is surely premature at this point.

As for GM in non US markets, they aren't doing badly, and are improving.

As for reliability, seems some of those Asians buy the brand contrarily to why they claim to buy it. Most GM products rank higher in reliability to BMW and other German brands, except for Porsche.

Regarding sales in Asian markets, GM is moving up.
Much of this, I believe, is due to the big changes GM has made, and it's products have become much better and very competitive.
Things change. Negative reputations take time to repair.
Check it out:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/auto/auto...ast-asia-sales

http://www.intellasia.net/gm-registe...for-may-207431

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...ter-quake.html

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by wayman519

Are you kidding me? no American toy can compete with a German Engineered Machine. Its been proven throughout history and it is not going to change any time soon. Let alone other German car companies struggle to compete with BMW. This post is like comparing a a hand glider with a nasa shuttle, quite hilarious!

If you're addressing my post, then please offer something that actually addresses the points you disagree with.
The post you just offered is nonsensical.

"Hand glider" compared to a "NASA shuttle"?
The ATS, I'll guess, is the hand glider, and the 3 series the shuttle?
If so, that comparison is quite hilarious.

In case you didn't know, as you're a history buff it seems, the shuttle is American built. NASA is American.

BTW, no, I'm not kidding you.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by batislav

If you look at places where the used car market is king, like Eastern Europe, you see tons of German cars that are between 10-20 years old running just fine. We use reliability as a blanket term to cover all parts of the car. The key word is engineering. People trust the reliability of mechanical components of german cars. A lot of the reliability issues with the Germans (including those discussed here) come from electrical/software issues whose functions are not as significant to that sort of market.

Things may change as more computing power is put into cars, but when my cousin bought an 8 year old Audi S3 in 2009 (speaking of Europe) he called it a new car--as things were measured in Eastern Europe. He really liked my e90, told me he might get one in 10 years after he's sure they're reliable.

As for the Americans, Ford does pretty well in those same used car markets, the GM brands lag.

Interesting that Ford does well over there.

Doesn't seem that GM is a big player in Europe over all.
Historically they have tended to be more of a domestic brand.

I too am originally from south eastern Europe.
I have many relatives over there.
BMW's have a favorable opinion, and MB's are really loved down there.

It makes much sense that those brands are sought after in the used market.
For one, they are a much more common product as they are European, so much more used cars to choose from. Plus, they are sought after as they are a premium product in those markets as well due to their higher coast of VW, Seat, Fiat, Opel.
And, people from that part of the world are very handy when it comes to fixing things.

You're right about the electronics, that poses a tougher challenge for the garage mechanic on a budget.

In the US old BMWs, MB's, Porsche's are sought by mechanically handy enthusiasts. The vast majority of new buyers for these premium brands can't even be bothered to change their owner wipers.
It's very strange. I often wonder where all the 10+yrs BMW's, Audi's and MB's go. I really don't see them at all.
It's very rare to see an older model, and when I do most are very beaten up and once in a while there will be a nicely cared for model, but it's rare to see one. Maybe they get shipped over seas.

Thanks for the info.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by batislav

Yeah, people in the US calling BMW a performance brand always sounds a little funny to me considering how many BMWs with small engines you see in Europe. Not that they perform badly, but performance isn't the first thing I think of with a 318d.

Yes, that's part of the big difference in perception of "premium" brands in the US. Here we get BMW models that aren't the bread and butter of Euro sales.

It would be interesting to see a BMW in the states with cloth seats and an under 2 liter gas engine with no turbo.
The majority of US buyers would snub their nose at the models sold in the "domestic" market in Europe.

[batislav]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I too am originally from south eastern Europe.
I have many relatives over there.

Where exactly originally? My family is spread all over. My mother is from Bulgaria, my father from Serbia--most of the family is still in E. Europe. I have uncles in France and the Netherlands.

As for Ford, people really respect the euro spec focus and the fiesta.

[wayman519]

Originally Posted by RPM90

If you're addressing my post, then please offer something that actually addresses the points you disagree with.
The post you just offered is nonsensical.

"Hand glider" compared to a "NASA shuttle"?
The ATS, I'll guess, is the hand glider, and the 3 series the shuttle?
If so, that comparison is quite hilarious.

In case you didn't know, as you're a history buff it seems, the shuttle is American built. NASA is American.

BTW, no, I'm not kidding you.

I wasn't really replying to your post specifically just the entire thread in general lol. I did see couple of your posts and agreed with some points. I was a bit drunk and harsh but I used the NASA comparison to not completely discourage. All i can say is GM pisses me off with how many hard working Americans they rip off. But the Caddy is by far their best effort. Remember the 3 series bare model only changes every 6 or so years, so its got to be engineered well enough to at least give the competition their run for their money. GM cannot just jump in and expect to shake a leader easily. This was just really my 2 cents and nothing more.

[adamsclubs]

Originally Posted by RPM90

If you're addressing my post, then please offer something that actually addresses the points you disagree with.
The post you just offered is nonsensical.

"Hand glider" compared to a "NASA shuttle"?
The ATS, I'll guess, is the hand glider, and the 3 series the shuttle?
If so, that comparison is quite hilarious.

In case you didn't know, as you're a history buff it seems, the shuttle is American built. NASA is American.

BTW, no, I'm not kidding you.

Yeah, this guy must never have been in a "performance contest" before, where 10-year-old Corvettes tend to put all the newer German cars to shame.

[micknugget]

I saw a silver ATS going down the road today. It looks much nicer in real life and looks less like the CTS (which I don't like) than I thought. Overall it is a very pretty car. I went to the Caddy website and built one up and it was a fair amount less than the 3. Looks like good competition for BMW.

[JoeyO]

So has anybody driven this POS?

What's funny is that Cadillac has a massive TV campaign showing the car being driven all over the world. I'm actually more intered in the site locations (ie, Patagonia) than the car itself.

[CirrusSR22]

A bunch of car magazine editors/tester have driven it, and they ALL say it's far from a POS.

[touringfanatic]

ATS seems an ok alternative though not really the obvious answer. I think that what really hampers the premium brands like cadillac is that they're part of big corporations building vast array of cars, so part sharing, badge engineering and other types of money saving are too common for there to be any real 'breathing space' for some kind of effective engineering. Bimmers, mercs and even audis for most part don't suffer from these problems. All bmw chasses are mostly used in bmws unlike caddy or lexus sharing their underpinnings with chevys, buicks and toyotas. That said GM has abysmal reputation almost everywhere and I wouldn't consider most of their products anyway. As for the capitallist issues discussed on this forum any sound person wouldn't let GM to go broke for a number of reasons: it's one of the largest employers and car manufacturers in the world, has potential to improve and having your own car maker does add to your technological prowess(ask Putin about that - he actually pissed me off big time when he decided to drop mercs and bimmers for a 20 year old ZIL, which is in my opinion big embaressment since they do have the resources and knowledge to build a brand new car). However I think that cadillac ats is example of too much of an american focus(trying to take back average american from import offering) in the company since if they would truly wish to make a splash on the global scene then big luxury cars(like Ciel and Sixteen) giving the best of americana are the only way to go. And no auto enthusiast should wish death to any car brand since it makes our world a much poorer and unhappier place (packard,duesenberg,horch,maybach,dkw,hispano suiza,facel vega,triumph, ..., and most recently saab were all wonderful vehicles which i admire despite my unwavering loyalty to bmw). As for the bmw i'm really not happy about what i see as a bit of a brand dillution. They're now more in the compromise game then ever for my taste. Seriosly all of these x3, x5 and x6 might be cash bringers but bmw seriosly needs to stop to expand niches in that direction because there is an untapped potential in the real driving machine segment. Nobody has thought of remaking 8er coupe, M1 is truly distant thinking and that 1gt is a serious sacrolege for which i don't really see any true profit to be made(at least all the x range is profitable sacrolige). And I don't like the press the bmws have been getting as of late (numb steering etc. it makes me mad since i'm an 5er f11 owner). I do hope that they don't turn their back on the roots completely and go the economist way since economists have a way of sucking out any good and soul like out of companies supposed to be selling some emotion with their product(GM is prime example afterall).

[F30AM]

Fictional Truth.


Pretty girl (or boy):
Question: What car do you drive?
Answer: A Cadillac.
Reaction: I see. (Down turned mouth, total lack of interest).
End of conversation. No chance of a bonk.


Pretty girl (or boy):
Question: What car do you drive?
Answer: A BMW.
Reaction: Wow! That's nice. (Interest levels rising, eyes widening, chance of a fumble on the agenda).
Question: Which kind?
Answer: A 3 Series.
Reaction: Wow! How fab is that? (Huge interest, good chance of more than a fumble).
Question: Is it fast?
Answer: Yes, very.
Reaction: I bet it is. (Interest levels now rising really rapidly, widened eyes, nearly in for a bonk).
Question: Do you love it?
Answer: Very much. It's a fabulous car.
Reaction: Wow! You lucky sod. (The deal is nearly done. Bonking is on the agenda. Only a nuclear war can stop it).
Question: What colour is it?
Answer: Estoril Blue II with Coral Red Leather.
Reaction: Wow! It must look really lovely. (Interest levels now sky high, lots of bonking on the agenda, love is in the air).
Question: I'd love to have a ride in it. Can I?
The rest is history .........

A BMW is The Ultimate Driving Machine and then some.

I rest my case.