[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

and driving a diesel in traffic with a manual sucks (period).

Why do you say this? I actually like driving a diesel in traffic more than a petrol motor as the low end torque makes clutch release a lot less involved. Sort of like a torquey V8 in traffic is easier to deal with than an S2000.

My car will always have three pedals, even if it means having to buy older cars at some point. I'm cool with technology making automatics better and better, but my wife can enjoy that stuff, I'll stick to manuals 'til I'm dead.

[aajami]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The people working on the X4 programme are some of the best engineers within BMW.
It is a very important car for BMW. and for the Spartanburg factory in South Carolina, USA in terms of growth.

Speaking of which, is that an X4 design sketch in your avatar?

[535desire]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

...Also, I will note that, as mentioned in the OP, the six cylinder diesel we will be getting will reportedly be different from the version used in the *30d models elsewhere in the world today, even though power output will be similar. How it will differ is currently not known.

I doubt that they will develop yet another engine with the same power output. The one in the current 330d and 530d can be outfitted with blueperformance technology to make the euro 6 emissions standards. These are as close as ever to the US Tier 2 bin 5 standards. I think it will be the same engine.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by 535desire

I doubt that they will develop yet another engine with the same power output. The one in the current 330d and 530d can be outfitted with blueperformance technology to make the euro 6 emissions standards. These are as close as ever to the US Tier 2 bin 5 standards. I think it will be the same engine.

Quite possible. What I meant when I said "be different from" was that it would not be identical, not that it would be entirely different. Perhaps I ought to have said "differ from", if that would make things more clear.

[535desire]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Quite possible. What I meant when I said "be different from" was that it would not be identical, not that it would be entirely different. Perhaps I ought to have said "differ from", if that would make things more clear.

Do mean like they did for the M57 that was in the US vehicles? That could be. I was surprised by how much engineering they put into that for the N American market.

[Hoosiers]

F32 320d M package. Perfect.

[kevlartoronto]

please bring the manual with the 320d!!!!!! to all of you "black clouds" trying to tell us automatics are better, nobody in NA wants manual transmissions anymore, it doesn't make economic sense...... all i hear is blah blah blah blah blah. ok let's face you are all just LAZY!!!! ;p

[JustinTJ]

Originally Posted by kevlartoronto

please bring the manual with the 320d!!!!!! to all of you "black clouds" trying to tell us automatics are better, nobody in NA wants manual transmissions anymore, it doesn't make economic sense...... all i hear is blah blah blah blah blah. ok let's face you are all just LAZY!!!! ;p

And you, like the cassette tape, are a relic of the past. To each his own.

[arnsbrae]

Originally Posted by JustinTJ

And you, like the cassette tape, are a relic of the past. To each his own.

Don't you really miss the manual choke? And what about ignition advance\ retard? I just feel I'm not in control of my car any more...

[ejheverest]

Originally Posted by rconti

330d + MT + touring, and I'll buy it just on principle.

As long as it doesn't end up 10k more than the sedan version.

M Sport and X drive options would also be nice!!

I've been trying to get my gf out of her SUV and into a wagon for the last 2 years...

[RPM90]

It's quite interesting how many people here say they will get a diesel if BMW offers it in N. America.
Judging from the number in this small pool of enthusiasts, seems BMW may sell these pretty well.

The MPG estimates are very impressive, and I can see the allure.
There seems to be a power gap though in the 2 engines that will be offered.
The 2.0 has 180hp and 280lb ft of torque. That seems like it would be a great city car as it will pull nicely in stop and go traffic.
For those seeking to pull tree stumps with more power there is the 3.0 with 255hp and estimated over 400lb ft.

This is where I see a performance gap.
280lb ft is not that much more than the 260lb ft the N20 produces, yet the N20 also has 240hp. It's a more energetic engine for holding and controlling high rpm torque.

The 3.0 diesel produces 255hp, which is a bit more than the N20, but the torque is an amazing 400+lb ft, well over the torque output of the N55.
Here's the power difference between the 2.0 and 3.0 diesels:
180hp to 255hp - 75hp difference.
280lb ft to 400+lb ft. (let's say 425) - 145lb ft. difference.

The difference in hp and torque is huge.
Where's the in between diesel engine?
220hp 350lb ft, that would be right on target.
It would generate HP closer to the N20 for more energetic performance, and provide more torque than the N55.
2.5 twin scroll diesel perhaps? Is there already such an engine in BMW's world wide offerings?

I have concerns and reservations about these diesel engines and performance oriented sport sedans and coupes.
Diesel engines produce gobs of torque at lower rpm, and the N55 already produces a lot of torque at low to mid rpm. 425lb ft is great, but I'd prefer less low rpm torque and more mid to high rpm torque for spirited driving. I find throttle control to be better at higher engine rpm where the big power can be better finessed.

Having such huge torque at such low rpm means needing to have very judicious control of one's right foot. It will be very easy to loose the rear end with such huge torque developed within a short rpm range.
That might be fun at times, but for going quickly around turns you don't want the rear sliding and spinning.

These diesels seem ideal for daily city driving and for long distance cruising with gobs of passing power and great MPG. But I don't know how great it would be as a performance automobile compared to the gasoline choices.
Top engine rpm in a diesel is quite low, meaning a very short power band, and the engines don't ramp up very quickly.
They have great pulling power but run out of breath much quicker compared to gasoline engines. For performance driving I don't know that I would like this. I've never driven a diesel engine designed to power a sport sedan or sport coupe. In the US diesels have been mostly used to move semi trailers or sub compact cars driven daily for great MPG.
Of course I'd have to reserve final judgement until I get to drive them.

Just wanted to put that out there to see what others may think.
Perhaps some of our members from countries, that have much broader use and experience with diesel engines, can offer their take and experience with diesel powered sport sedans and coupes.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Where's the in between diesel engine?
220hp 350lb ft, that would be right on target.

2.5 twin scroll diesel perhaps? Is there already such an engine in BMW's world wide offerings?

Just wanted to put that out there to see what others may think.
Perhaps some of our members from countries, that have much broader use and experience with diesel engines, can offer their take and experience with diesel powered sport sedans and coupes.

We were having a 'detuned' 3.0d as the mid range 525d and 325d, but BMW are now plugging the gap with a variant of the N47(S1) engine, the sequential turbo version of the 2.0d. It pumps out 218hp and 450Nm of torque, so right there in the middle, but with economy very close to the 2.0d single turbo models. We have it in 1-series, F10 5-series and the X1 here in the UK. There has always been the "why not" in the E9* models. It was reserved for the Alpina D3 in the E90/1.

Personally I think it would make so much sense for Europe in the 3-series. I'm sure it will come, as the detuned 6-pot seems so out of place for the current lineup.

As to using the 3.0d 330d in the E90/1 models as a sporty sedan/wagon here in the UK, was so successful we lost the 330i E91 wagon as demand wasn't there. The 330d was the practical and performance option most wanted. The bigger brother 335d, is seen as a match to the 335i over here, so it is simply a personal taste issue as to which engine a user desires and chooses. In fact most are 335d models, as most prefer the massive mid range performance and better ecomomy.

Don't simply think of a short power band and a limited wheezing top end, gearing is long and the auto snatches through the gears anyway, with a strong mid range. The 8-speed bolted to the 3.0d is one of the best BMW combinations ever, IMO, works well together. Easy to extract the engine's performance and drive a decent pace, even with lazy driver concentration.

HighlandPete

[ATX78703]

Originally Posted by RPM90

It's quite interesting how many people here say they will get a diesel if BMW offers it in N. America.
Judging from the number in this small pool of enthusiasts, seems BMW may sell these pretty well.
....
Just wanted to put that out there to see what others may think.
Perhaps some of our members from countries, that have much broader use and experience with diesel engines, can offer their take and experience with diesel powered sport sedans and coupes.

i agree on your points - i think what will happen is it will sell great on the X vehicles (X3, X5) and a smaller displacement, affordable diesel like the 20d will sell well on the 3er. The vehicles will be fun to drive in low-rpm situations and will get great gas mileage. That whole "performance-diesel" thing never worked on the e90 in the states, no reason to think it will work now.

In general, ppl who are going for spirited-performance driving, will not want an engine that redlines at 5K rpm. It is a lot more exciting to stay in 2nd gear and pull to 7K rpm, regardless of how many million lb-ft of torque you have at 1500 rpm. It's not like the petrol engines are torque slouches by an means, anyway.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ATX78703

That whole "performance-diesel" thing never worked on the e90 in the states, no reason to think it will work now.

It is a lot more exciting to stay in 2nd gear and pull to 7K rpm, regardless of how many million lb-ft of torque you have at 1500 rpm.

I read what you are saying, but here in Europe, particularly the UK, we have virtually been forced to give up even thinking of using the big 'petrol' engines, as costs of fuel and tax make them a luxury of the past, even for many enthusiasts.

We've had to start thinking in more practical terms, rather than what we would like to drive. Then the era of the E46 and E39 was our time for revised thinking.

It is why the smaller diesels get us excited. Even something like the new N20 4-pot 328i will be turned down by many, due to the cost of fuel. They will take the 320d instead, use torque rather than rpm as acceptable performance.

HighlandPete

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Don't simply think of a short power band and a limited wheezing top end, gearing is long and the auto snatches through the gears anyway, with a strong mid range. The 8-speed bolted to the 3.0d is one of the best BMW combinations ever, IMO, works well together. Easy to extract the engine's performance and drive a decent pace, even with lazy driver concentration.

HighlandPete

Is the gearing different in the diesel models?
I would expect it to be, but I don't know.

[Raja Ventureshield]

i just hope that the diesels make it in the coupe/convertible iterations.
i would surely get one for the familia.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Is the gearing different in the diesel models?
I would expect it to be, but I don't know.

Yes gears are longer, but it is an incremental increase through the gears, so you still don't get a wide mph spead for the power band in the lower gears. Even if the 6th speed is say 37mph per 1,000 rpm, compared to the 29mph of the petrol.

Personally I don't think a lot of the diesel drivetrains will appeal to the enthusiast who loves chasing high rpm, that is not what a performance diesel is really about. We talk more over here in the UK of "real world" performance, the "in-gear" mid range overtaking performance, as in day to day driving that is the performance you tap into time and again. Certainly in the congested conditions many have to endure.

It is really the mid range and in-gear performance that has converted a lot of enthusiasts, as it is so practical and you gain in mpg consumption. The other factor, the auto suits the shorter power band, so saves all the low speed gear changing anyway. Again that goes against the thinking of many enthusiasts, who love MT and chasing high rev bands.

I have driven many (and owned) smaller diesels over the years in the UK, and there is definitely the feeling that a 2.0d turbo diesel 'compares' to a 3.0i NA in day to day driving. OK, there is no comparison in the sprint, but when a chance to overtake comes in an instant, while the 3.0i is stirring gears to get on the power band, the smaller diesel with the foot planted has made the pass.

Neither is 'better' in the strictest sense, but certainly different in execution.

I moved from an E39 540i wagon to the E91 330d wagon. Performance on paper is very similar. The 330d has given nothing away in real world driving, the difference is a slightly harder punch from the diesel when I plant the pedal for overtaking. What is missed, is that amazing rpm build of the 540i V8, so really the 'emotional' factor of driving performance and the driving experience. Not whether the 50 - 75mph time is more, or less. In fact, the 330d will turn in faster in-gear times compared to the 540i, if you have a manual box.

I like either way the power is put down, but to be totally frank as I've mentioned before, costs have killed the emotional part for most folks over here, the diesel allows us to keep useable performance.

I still get the smile factor as I close on a car in front, nick the stick into sport, plant the right foot and get that "darling" bit, as the diesel punches a decent overtake. A 335i would be better, appeal more to the heart of the driver in me, but the head thinks of the cost penalties of being in the 335i.

HighlandPete

[jhbodle]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Yes gears are longer, but it is an incremental increase through the gears, so you still don't get a wide mph spead for the power band in the lower gears. Even if the 6th speed is say 37mph per 1,000 rpm, compared to the 29mph of the petrol.

Personally I don't think a lot of the diesel drivetrains will appeal to the enthusiast who loves chasing high rpm, that is not what a performance diesel is really about. We talk more over here in the UK of "real world" performance, the "in-gear" mid range overtaking performance, as in day to day driving that is the performance you tap into time and again. Certainly in the congested conditions many have to endure.

It is really the mid range and in-gear performance that has converted a lot of enthusiasts, as it is so practical and you gain in mpg consumption. The other factor, the auto suits the shorter power band, so saves all the low speed gear changing anyway. Again that goes against the thinking of many enthusiasts, who love MT and chasing high rev bands.

I have driven many (and owned) smaller diesels over the years in the UK, and there is definitely the feeling that a 2.0d turbo diesel 'compares' to a 3.0i NA in day to day driving. OK, there is no comparison in the sprint, but when a chance to overtake comes in an instant, while the 3.0i is stirring gears to get on the power band, the smaller diesel with the foot planted has made the pass.

Neither is 'better' in the strictest sense, but certainly different in execution.

I moved from an E39 540i wagon to the E91 330d wagon. Performance on paper is very similar. The 330d has given nothing away in real world driving, the difference is a slightly harder punch from the diesel when I plant the pedal for overtaking. What is missed, is that amazing rpm build of the 540i V8, so really the 'emotional' factor of driving performance and the driving experience. Not whether the 50 - 75mph time is more, or less. In fact, the 330d will turn in faster in-gear times compared to the 540i, if you have a manual box.

I like either way the power is put down, but to be totally frank as I've mentioned before, costs have killed the emotional part for most folks over here, the diesel allows us to keep useable performance.

I still get the smile factor as I close on a car in front, nick the stick into sport, plant the right foot and get that "darling" bit, as the diesel punches a decent overtake. A 335i would be better, appeal more to the heart of the driver in me, but the head thinks of the cost penalties of being in the 335i.

HighlandPete

Couldn't have put it better myself. I have just traded in my 335i for an F20 125d because the cost of petrol was getting silly. The 125d makes the same amount of torque (332lb/ft) as the 335i with PPK but is giving me 50mpg instead of 23mpg. 0-60mph suffers a little (6.5sec vs 5.7sec for the 335i) and I'll miss the sound of the N54 screaming through the gears but it is still enjoyable! The lighter weight and the swell of torque are great. Much smoother and quieter than I thought it would be too.

[Fugly M3]

okay, OP, do we have info on when these are coming? Looking to do May, 2013 ED and want to know if that 320d will be US bound for that.

[Mrcarcrazy]

I don't want to talk about a oil burner F30. I waited and I waited...and then I got impatient....335i here I come. Screw you wonderful MPGs, I'm married to this car for at least a cpl yrs.

[robbieracer]

The new F30 diesel will be great when it makes it to the states. I'm waiting for it.

[SmoothSteeringHopeful]

This was the thread I was looking for! I wish we had a date of arrival