[jmg]

Edit - I think the purpose of this thread has been misunderstood since I first posted it. I had literally just finished reading the letter from this person's (Party A) lawyer when I originally started this thread, so I was admittedly hot headed and called him/her a 'deadbeat'. This thread was originally a way for me to vent about the situation. I am not looking to defame this person that purchased my leased car and got into an accident without insurance. In fact, I will never reveal their personal info nor details of the case that might reveal his or her identity. Below is the SHORT VERSION of what happened, and there are details that I cannot reveal that motivated me in calling this person a 'deadbeat'. I'm not looking for legal advice or confirmation of my legal liability, but it is greatly appreciated.

If anything, the ultimate purpose, other than to let off some steam, is to provide a cautionary tale for everyone to KEEP ALL THE DOCUMENTATION when you lease return or sell your car! Had I not retained my proof of release of liability, or called my insurance agent promptly to remove the vehicle from my plan, this would have been a much bigger and more expensive headache.




Short version:

Last year I turned in my leased 328i.

A few months later, apparently, the driver of my lease returned 328i ,Party A, got into an accident.

My car was still under my insurance according to the DMV or something, so I got the notice from the insurance company of Party B, the car that Party A hit. (edit: DMV records showed my insurance, but in actuality, that policy was ended when I lease returned the car)

I denied any liability and sent Party B's insurance company the release of liability to BMWFS from the lease return.

Recently, more than a year later, I got a letter from some lawyer saying that Party A is declaring bankruptcy and that I have to file to object to discharge this person' debt to me.

First of all, he is not in debt to me since I had nothing to do with the circus that is his life.

Second of all, I want nothing to do with this deadbeat, who drove a used 328i he probably couldn't afford and didn't have the capacity to didn't have insurance, which is required in the state of CA.

Seriously, what kind of loser has this kind of pathetic life? Get it together man!

[donkey]

Look at you assuming he is a deadbeat and didn't just run into some hard times.

A lot of people would assume that you couldn't afford the 328 either, since you leased it.

Sorry you had to file some paperwork.

[anotheran]

It is messed up how your insurance was still attached to the returned lease. Did you remember to tell the insurance company you returned the 328i last year?

[Michael Schott]

Something in the OP's story smells bad. Once you return a lease car it's BMW's property not yours. I don't see how your insurance could carryover. Did you get a new car and cancel the old insurance? Not even sure if this matters. The OP is either not being completely honest with us, is confused or is getting scammed.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by drive

Look at you assuming he is a deadbeat and didn't just run into some hard times.

He's a deadbeat for several reasons:

1) No insurance even where it's required by law
2) Declared bankruptcy just a year after buying a BMW
3) Lives in a tiny apartment in a city were the average income is close or below poverty levels.
4) Did not admit fault and tried to pass of liability to me.

Originally Posted by drive

A lot of people would assume that you couldn't afford the 328 either, since you leased it.

1) I don't care what other people think
2) Leasing alone doesn't mean you can't afford it. Declaring bankruptcy, living in a poverty striken area, and not affording insurance would make me assume he can't afford it.
3) The entire payment is a business deduction and I am incorporated. Most smart business owners take advantage of the tax advantages of a lease.
4) I don't rent a tiny apartment in a poor neighborhood, I own in a decent house in a decent neighborhood.
5) I have more than one car. In the apartment where he lives in, you get one parking spot or park in the street. It's safe to assume he has one car, otherwise he has some fked up priorities having multiple cars living in a tiny apartment.

Originally Posted by drive

Sorry you had to file some paperwork.

I was almost sued for an accident I had nothing to do with. This is more than just paperwork. It's been a year and I'm still getting bullshit notices from it. If this goes any further, ie Party B comes after me because Party A is bankrupt, I will either have to settle or get a lawyer. That's $$$$$. But thanks for you sympathy.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Something in the OP's story smells bad. Once you return a lease car it's BMW's property not yours.

That's the problem. Someone did not cross their t's or dot their i's. The DMV still had me on record as liable for the car despite signing away liability to BMWFS. Like I said, this is the short version. I didn't want to write an essay on all the ins and outs of the document trail that has to lead up to a lease return.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I don't see how your insurance could carryover. Did you get a new car and cancel the old insurance? Not even sure if this matters. The OP is either not being completely honest with us, is confused or is getting scammed.

Why would I not be honest with you? I'm not setting up a kickstarter or anything. This was a pure rant to let off steam.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by anotheran

It is messed up how your insurance was still attached to the returned lease. Did you remember to tell the insurance company you returned the 328i last year?

Yes. That is why I was contacted by Party B's insurance directly. My insurance showed that coverage ended on that car when I returned it, so I was assumed liable.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by jmg

That's the problem. Someone did not cross their t's or dot their i's. The DMV still had me on record as liable for the car despite signing away liability to BMWFS. Like I said, this is the short version. I didn't want to write an essay on all the ins and outs of the document trail that has to lead up to a lease return.



Why would I not be honest with you? I'm not setting up a kickstarter or anything. This was a pure rant to let off steam.

Have you talked to the DMV or BMWFS? This is their issue not yours.

[donkey]

Originally Posted by jmg

He's a deadbeat for several reasons:

1) No insurance even where it's required by law
2) Declared bankruptcy just a year after buying a BMW
3) Lives in a tiny apartment in a city were the average income is close or below poverty levels.
4) Did not admit fault and tried to pass of liability to me.



1) I don't care what other people think
2) Leasing alone doesn't mean you can't afford it. Declaring bankruptcy, living in a poverty striken area, and not affording insurance would make me assume he can't afford it.
3) The entire payment is a business deduction and I am incorporated. Most smart business owners take advantage of the tax advantages of a lease.
4) I don't rent a tiny apartment in a poor neighborhood, I own in a decent house in a decent neighborhood.
5) I have more than one car. In the apartment where he lives in, you get one parking spot or park in the street. It's safe to assume he has one car, otherwise he has some fked up priorities having multiple cars living in a tiny apartment.



I was almost sued for an accident I had nothing to do with. This is more than just paperwork. It's been a year and I'm still getting bullshit notices from it. If this goes any further, ie Party B comes after me because Party A is bankrupt, I will either have to settle or get a lawyer. That's $$$$$. But thanks for you sympathy.

Whoa there, no need to convince me buddy

[jgoens]

Off topic but related to release of liability issues--last week I got an email that a car was added to my Fastrac account. So, I thought I would check my account since I have not checked this year. Upon looking at the charges I saw many bridge charges that were pretty odd since I had not went over a bridge more than a couple times a month and had not crossed the bay bridge all year.

I had probably $50 or more in charges so I called Fastrac about the charges and if a car was added. A car was not added it was from last year but why it took so long is beside me. So, the charges were from the plate of a car I sold 2 years ago. Apparently you have to delete a car from the fastrac account or you will be charged regardless if you sent a release of liability to the DMV.

They said I could dispute the charges if I show the release form which I seemed to have misplaced and called the DMV to request another. The person at the DMV could not even believe that I was being charged. I just figured that everyone uses the fastrac transponder when going through a toll booth and once I released liability on a car I was done. Not so. So, maybe this will inform someone else when selling a car.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by jmg

The DMV still had me on record as liable for the car despite signing away liability to BMWFS.

I doubt that. You never owned the car, BMWFS did, you only had it registered in your name, and that would have been closed when the new buyer registered it in his name. Assuming he bought the car the title would have been transferred from BMWFS into his name. The only way you'd still be shown as the registered driver by the DMV would be if he didn't register the car and was driving with phony plates. If that was the case and he had no insurance then the other driver's insurance company could be trying to collect from whoever they can, but they'd have to prove that you still were legally liable for the car, which you were not as soon as you turned it back in.

I got a letter from some lawyer saying that Party A is declaring bankruptcy and that I have to file to object to discharge this person' debt to me.

Since he has no debt to you there's nothing for you to discharge. Ignore it.

[Nebelhinten]

Originally Posted by jmg

That's the problem. Someone did not cross their t's or dot their i's. The DMV still had me on record as liable for the car despite signing away liability to BMWFS. Like I said, this is the short version. I didn't want to write an essay on all the ins and outs of the document trail that has to lead up to a lease return.



Why would I not be honest with you? I'm not setting up a kickstarter or anything. This was a pure rant to let off steam.

I had somewhat similar issue when I traded in a car back in 2007. Transferred title to dealer, but got a renewal notice from DMV several months later indicating car was still registered in my name. Had to get dealer to straighten it out with DMV. Still not sure what happened, but it had never been re-registered by anyone and dealer didn't know what they did with car. Suggested maybe they just sold for parts. Car was definitely not insured though as that was canceled when I bought the new car.

[Project Elite]

Originally Posted by jgoens

Off topic but related to release of liability issues--last week I got an email that a car was added to my Fastrac account. So, I thought I would check my account since I have not checked this year. Upon looking at the charges I saw many bridge charges that were pretty odd since I had not went over a bridge more than a couple times a month and had not crossed the bay bridge all year.

I had probably $50 or more in charges so I called Fastrac about the charges and if a car was added. A car was not added it was from last year but why it took so long is beside me. So, the charges were from the plate of a car I sold 2 years ago. Apparently you have to delete a car from the fastrac account or you will be charged regardless if you sent a release of liability to the DMV.

They said I could dispute the charges if I show the release form which I seemed to have misplaced and called the DMV to request another. The person at the DMV could not even believe that I was being charged. I just figured that everyone uses the fastrac transponder when going through a toll booth and once I released liability on a car I was done. Not so. So, maybe this will inform someone else when selling a car.

Also had a similar issue. One of my cars were salvaged from being hit so we had to do all the safety checks and get a new license plate. Months later, crossed the bridge and got a toll violation weeks later. Figured they would change the plates from the car on Fastrak but I apparently their agencies are not synced. It probably would be a nightmare (even for computers) to crosscheck the vehicle information with the local agencies and update accordingly. Luckily they allowed me to waive the violation fee just by updating the start date of the new plate.

Originally Posted by jmg

Short version:

Last year I turned in my leased 328i.

A few months later, apparently, the driver of my lease returned 328i ,Party A, got into an accident.

My car was still under my insurance according to the DMV or something, so I got the notice from the insurance company of Party B, the car that Party A hit. (edit: DMV records showed my insurance, but in actuality, that policy was ended when I lease returned the car)

I denied any liability and sent Party B's insurance company the release of liability to BMWFS from the lease return.

Recently, more than a year later, I got a letter from some lawyer saying that Party A is declaring bankruptcy and that I have to file to object to discharge this person' debt to me.

First of all, he is not in debt to me since I had nothing to do with the circus that is his life.

Second of all, I want nothing to do with this deadbeat, who drove a used 328i he probably couldn't afford and didn't have the capacity to didn't have insurance, which is required in the state of CA.

Seriously, what kind of loser has this kind of pathetic life? Get it together man!

I feel really bad for you, and it's not your fault whosoever.

From my understanding (source: insurance agent), DMV recently required insurance agencies to update their insured vehicles with DMV's database. DMV would record and retain that insurance information, until a new insurance policy is purchased to replace it. The new owner never got insurance so your policy remained in their record. This is really screwed up if you ask me.

EDIT: Actually, I just remembered I sold a motorcycle a while back and about a month later, I got a notice of suspension of registration if insurance information was not provided by a date. Your insurance information should be deleted once you stopped your policy.

[eluded]

Hope the OP is not in the peoples Republic of California. They will probably put a lien on your house. Start garnishing your wages. If you can't provide the paperwork, you are at fault. What were you thinking living in the California ??

Sorry, I got on a rant, sure he's not from California.

[wrickem]

I don't see how it's possible for you to in any way be liable for for a lease that you have returned and cancelled the insurance on (and must have the paperwork to show the date of the return).

Your liability would have ended the day you returned the lease and cancelled your insurance. That's just absurd that they'd even contact you. I'd send copies and wipe my hands of it.

[PennSt8]

OP by chance did you remove all of your personal effects from your vehicle?

I ask, as I wonder if the person who filled out the SR-1 somehow gained access to personal information (i.e. old insurance card) and proceeded to fill it out with your information and not his/hers.

[rlmesq]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I doubt that. You never owned the car, BMWFS did, you only had it registered in your name, and that would have been closed when the new buyer registered it in his name. Assuming he bought the car the title would have been transferred from BMWFS into his name. The only way you'd still be shown as the registered driver by the DMV would be if he didn't register the car and was driving with phony plates. If that was the case and he had no insurance then the other driver's insurance company could be trying to collect from whoever they can, but they'd have to prove that you still were legally liable for the car, which you were not as soon as you turned it back in.

Not exactly. In California, the plates stay with the car (unless they're personalized plates that are retained by the owner.

If OP was still the registered owner, the burden would be on him to prove he wasn't liable.

That's not an inexpensive process. If he was sued, the court would probably grant a summary judgment with proper documentation of the lease return, but that could cost thousands in legal fees before it was over.

The dealership should have assisted you in completing a release of liability to be filed immediately with DMV.

Since he has no debt to you there's nothing for you to discharge. Ignore.

That could be dangerous. If OP it's listed as a creditor in bankruptcy proceedings, there may be some judgment out there. I wouldn't ignore anything without consulting my insurance company.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by PennSt8

OP by chance did you remove all of your personal effects from your vehicle?

I ask, as I wonder if the person who filled out the SR-1 somehow gained access to personal information (i.e. old insurance card) and proceeded to fill it out with your information and not his/hers.

Yes, I was very thorough. I was informed by Party B's insurance that they found out my information from DMV records.

Originally Posted by rlmesq

Not exactly. In California, the plates stay with the car (unless they're personalized plates that are retained by the owner.

If OP was still the registered owner, the burden would be on him to prove he wasn't liable.

That's not an inexpensive process. If he was sued, the court would probably grant a summary judgment with proper documentation of the lease return, but that could cost thousands in legal fees before it was over.

The dealership should have assisted you in completing a release of liability to be filed immediately with DMV.



That could be dangerous. If OP it's listed as a creditor in bankruptcy proceedings, there may be some judgment out there. I wouldn't ignore anything without consulting my insurance company.

I sent my release of liability to their lawyer last year. I'm hoping that the notice for Party A's bankruptcy is just a redundancy in case I try to or have gone after him for his accident.

Originally Posted by wrickem

I don't see how it's possible for you to in any way be liable for for a lease that you have returned and cancelled the insurance on (and must have the paperwork to show the date of the return).

Your liability would have ended the day you returned the lease and cancelled your insurance. That's just absurd that they'd even contact you. I'd send copies and wipe my hands of it.

I thought so too. Someone else pointed out that the DMV won't wipe the insurance information from the car until it is insured again by the new owner. This deadbeat did not have insurance, so my information was retained, even if I am not legally liable. Looks like gap in DMV logic to me, but not the first time red tape has been more cumbersome than it has to be.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by rlmesq

In California, the plates stay with the car

That might not be the dumbest thing I've ever heard of, but it's definitely in the top ten.

[razzy530]

Originally Posted by drive

Whoa there, no need to convince me buddy

you've got a lot of nerve "buddy"

[Paz1]

It's a new scam going around

[jmg]

Originally Posted by pgarbul1

It's a new scam going around

Any additional literature? Is Party B in on the scam?