[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by EndBosS

Hi mike@x-ph.com,

I understand you a sceptical, it's a big deal

It's a full ECU read we do. So we can access all tables, no need for us to sum them up.

The reason my collegue made an error in the Facebook messages is because we get about 100 messages a day. He copy pasted his answer from a Mini Cooper 1.6 DFI and didn't pay attention before sending

Mike, we might not have the most R&D money, but we do have some very intelligent guys who work(ed) on this.
We might not be famous over in the States, but in Europe we are quiet big. (small fyi)

Thank you for your answer.
Can't wait to see customer feeback and results.

[Dippydo]

I get it but maybe not. If the results are similar to the other tunes like JB4 and Dinan that claim 300-ish crank, what is the benefit for this over the piggybacks? Piggybacks are typically limited which is why other guys I know that run say a cob or procede run a flash to get more control/HP that piggies can't achieve safely, like our local guy just swapped out his turbos and dynoed at 670 wheels on his n54.

Unlike say the N54 that is very strong on the bottom end, it is my understanding that the N20 block is pretty much at it's full potential with one of the piggybacks so why would one want to do a custom tune like this? We are talking a 4 cylinder pushing 300hp. Honest question not sarcasm or anything. Just trying to figure out the benefits.

[Seraphblade@sg]

Any updates or reviews?

[Ganxxta]

@Endboss , @AurélienFxx

A few other questions:

1. Do you think its "safe" for the engine like the N20 to extract 40-50% more power/torque like for example for the stage1 x20i? (184->260hp & 270->420Nm tq)

(With the few "blown N20 engine" threads in mind...)

2. Continuing with the x20i example for the N20, the stage1 results are more or less equal to the JB4 results for the same engine, what are the differences if you can share?

How much more boost do you add etc?

3. Especially the significantly raised torque is interesting, do you know if the 8Speed ZF gearbox is able to handle it without problems?

4. For the N20, do you/ can you raise the rev limiter and remove the VMAX?

5. I read in the other thread that you can put different maps/tunes on the driving mode switch...

Is it possible for example to have the default engine power set to Eco Pro, and the tune for comfort and sport/sport+?



Sorry for so many questions, just curious

Merry Christmas to you and everyone else who is reading this thread

[mougwai]

hello,

I am from french and my car is running with JB4 stage 2 map 5 (for 320i wo EWG) since 4 months: very happy with this tune.

Next week, i will do a remap from BR, i will give you a feedback JB4 vs BR

[FSociety]

Any updates
Happy New Year all

[lab_rat]

Originally Posted by mougwai

hello,

I am from french and my car is running with JB4 stage 2 map 5 (for 320i wo EWG) since 4 months: very happy with this tune.

Next week, i will do a remap from BR, i will give you a feedback JB4 vs BR

I am very interested in your feedback/review.

[AurélienFxx]

Originally Posted by mougwai

hello,

I am from french and my car is running with JB4 stage 2 map 5 (for 320i wo EWG) since 4 months: very happy with this tune.

Next week, i will do a remap from BR, i will give you a feedback JB4 vs BR

Avec grand plaisir !

BR Paris ? Belgium ? Luxembourg ? Lyon ? Sud ?

Originally Posted by Ganxxta

@Endboss , @AurélienFxx

A few other questions:

1. Do you think its "safe" for the engine like the N20 to extract 40-50% more power/torque like for example for the stage1 x20i? (184->260hp & 270->420Nm tq)

(With the few "blown N20 engine" threads in mind...)

2. Continuing with the x20i example for the N20, the stage1 results are more or less equal to the JB4 results for the same engine, what are the differences if you can share?

How much more boost do you add etc?

3. Especially the significantly raised torque is interesting, do you know if the 8Speed ZF gearbox is able to handle it without problems?

4. For the N20, do you/ can you raise the rev limiter and remove the VMAX?

5. I read in the other thread that you can put different maps/tunes on the driving mode switch...

Is it possible for example to have the default engine power set to Eco Pro, and the tune for comfort and sport/sport+?



Sorry for so many questions, just curious

Merry Christmas to you and everyone else who is reading this thread

Ok , step by step :

1° Definately.

20i and 28i use EXACT same software. Only few maps are tweaked in 28i, mostly torque limiters and exhaust flap maps, overboost functions and ignition timing.

I think there is no reason to go crazy regarding the (unfortunate) few blown thread. If everyone else was making a thread telling " My N20 is running like a swiss watch " probably you would not even hear about those thread !

2° Answering " How much more " would need knowing exactly the setup of JB4. I don't.

When mougwai comes, we could probably have a look at this and tell you exactly the difference in terms of boost, etc.

Basically... The idea is not to run much more boost, on those engine boost is pretty much limited by turbo design ( surge / choke / safe turbine speed limit ) and exhaust gas temperature.
The idea is to make tuning safe and homogeneous. Keeping the gearbox happy with the torque numbers it see, etc.

We don't affect boost only. We are affecting anything from ignition timing to valve timing.

We keep intact the whole logic in the ecu, we just redesign the calibration for more power, more torque and more fun ! By doing so, we keep the power delivery linear and retain ALL the security inside the ecu, from knock control to boost deviation regulation .

Most piggy back are trying to get you "that" boost, as long as you are WOT. But the thing is, engine can be knocking, ecu is maybe trying to reduce boost to reduce overheat and prevent knock. In case of ECU tune, ECU will reduce boost and protect engine the right way !

3° ZF 8HP transmission are very reliable. 8HP45 is designed to SAFELY handle 450 nm of torque.

You can find more details from ZF :

http://www.zf.com/media/media/produc..._DataSheet.pdf

4° Of course. We can remove VMAX on every BMW. We raise RPM limit when necessary, we do on 20i if it's your next question !

5° Absolutely. You can have an agressive map on the sport button and a soft map in normal mode. Or an eco and sport map. Or two sport map with different pedal response. Or whatever you wish in between ! That's what rocks with custom tunes !

[rustyminded]

Originally Posted by AurélienFxx

Avec grand plaisir !

BR Paris ? Belgium ? Luxembourg ? Lyon ? Sud ?






Ok , step by step :

1° Definately.

20i and 28i use EXACT same software. Only few maps are tweaked in 28i, mostly torque limiters and exhaust flap maps, overboost functions and ignition timing.

I think there is no reason to go crazy regarding the (unfortunate) few blown thread. If everyone else was making a thread telling " My N20 is running like a swiss watch " probably you would not even hear about those thread !

2° Answering " How much more " would need knowing exactly the setup of JB4. I don't.

When mougwai comes, we could probably have a look at this and tell you exactly the difference in terms of boost, etc.

Basically... The idea is not to run much more boost, on those engine boost is pretty much limited by turbo design ( surge / choke / safe turbine speed limit ) and exhaust gas temperature.
The idea is to make tuning safe and homogeneous. Keeping the gearbox happy with the torque numbers it see, etc.

We don't affect boost only. We are affecting anything from ignition timing to valve timing.

We keep intact the whole logic in the ecu, we just redesign the calibration for more power, more torque and more fun ! By doing so, we keep the power delivery linear and retain ALL the security inside the ecu, from knock control to boost deviation regulation .

Most piggy back are trying to get you "that" boost, as long as you are WOT. But the thing is, engine can be knocking, ecu is maybe trying to reduce boost to reduce overheat and prevent knock. In case of ECU tune, ECU will reduce boost and protect engine the right way !

3° ZF 8HP transmission are very reliable. 8HP45 is designed to SAFELY handle 450 nm of torque.

You can find more details from ZF :

http://www.zf.com/media/media/produc..._DataSheet.pdf

4° Of course. We can remove VMAX on every BMW. We raise RPM limit when necessary, we do on 20i if it's your next question !

5° Absolutely. You can have an agressive map on the sport button and a soft map in normal mode. Or an eco and sport map. Or two sport map with different pedal response. Or whatever you wish in between ! That's what rocks with custom tunes !

Aside from the cool convincing answer, I want to know how is it compared to JB4 in terms of power. it would be awesome if someone tested it out for the sake of tuning

[FSociety]

Originally Posted by rustyminded

Aside from the cool convincing answer, I want to know how is it compared to JB4 in terms of power. it would be awesome if someone tested it out for the sake of tuning

Add RaceChip Max Settings also Dinan .. How does it compare to them?

RaceChip Ultimate (Piggyback like BMS but easier installation)
296 HP, 310 lb-ft torque w/ up to 5 mpg improvement

Dinan + warranty
311 HP, 328 lb-ft of torque

BR-P Stage1 says 290hp / 450Nm (331ft-lb torque)
BR-P Stage2 says 310hp / 480Nm (350 ft-lb torque)

[jamoka3]

This looks great, but I really want something I can “remove” for dealership services or warranty issues ( if they arise). The piggybacks can just be unplugged. When you do a re-flash how can you cover that up? Also if the ecu is flashed by BMW, or hooking up there diagnostics computers wont they be able to determine that something of out of whack? I think they can just wipe out your flash, and then what…you lost a crap load of money, and now BMW knows you modded your car out of spec, and can void your warranty.

[jamoka3]

Originally Posted by ROBNYC

Add RaceChip Max Settings also Dinan .. How does it compare to them?

RaceChip Ultimate (Piggyback like BMS but easier installation)
296 HP, 310 lb-ft torque w/ up to 5 mpg improvement

Dinan + warranty
311 HP, 328 lb-ft of torque

BR-P Stage1 says 290hp / 450Nm (331ft-lb torque)
BR-P Stage2 says 310hp / 480Nm (350 ft-lb torque)

Just out of curiosity, are those ratings all wheel HP/TQ gains or crank?
Dinan does not state thats there gains posted on there site are wheel or crank...
RC does not state that the gains posted are wheel or crank...
BR-P no idea either...

[Ganxxta]

Originally Posted by AurélienFxx

Ok , step by step :
[snip]

Thanks for the detailed answers, I might drop you a PM

One thing regarding the raised RPM... actually I wanted to avoid raising it above stock. (I my opinion thats the easiest way BMW will know directly that the ECU was tweaked, when they see more RPM then stock in their logs.)

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by jamoka3

Just out of curiosity, are those ratings all wheel HP/TQ gains or crank?
Dinan does not state thats there gains posted on there site are wheel or crank...
RC does not state that the gains posted are wheel or crank...
BR-P no idea either...

European Tuners (RC, BR-P) always talk in terms of crank. As do we.

The manufacturer rates the cars at the crank, easiest way to compare to stated stock numbers is to compare apples to apples.

[FSociety]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

European Tuners (RC, BR-P) always talk in terms of crank. As do we.

The manufacturer rates the cars at the crank, easiest way to compare to stated stock numbers is to compare apples to apples.

So how much are the WHP numbers ?

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by ROBNYC

So how much are the WHP numbers ?

Steve has responded directly to the whole drivetrain loss question before so I will just copy and paste that below. The synopsis, although extremely simplified, is the current generation of BMW's typically have a MAX drivetrain loss of around 12-13% through our testing. We will also be posting a video in the next few days explaining our dyno process since that has always been a talking point when speaking of Dinan so hopefully that will answer some questions as well.

"We do use a Dynapack chassis dyno and a DTS engine dyno for all of our testing. Like most OE's, we publish our crank numbers, not wheel horsepower numbers, simply to keep things as accurate as possible. Dinan tests multiple cars with multiple runs and averages them so no one chassis dyno test would be representative. When we compare our engine Dyno Data to our chassis dyno data we find that most if not all chassis dynos, including ours, overstates the lower RPM torque values. Our chassis dyno does not do a coast down for inertia and friction corrections. If we are using the chassis dyno once we have performed multiple Chassis dyno runs and averaged them we apply different correction factors to each RPM to correct for these inflated torque numbers. All this is done to ensure the most accurate reporting to our customers. We list both Stock and Dinan numbers using the same corrections to ensure the comparison is fair. If we are using the Engine Dyno the data is just averaged over multiple runs to get a fair average performance. With both the engine dyno and chassis dyno we ensure the room is as close to standard weather conditions as possible and all dyno runs are performed in the same weather window to ensure comparisons are fair. In most cases Dinan Dyno numbers will be lower than those you will get at low RPM because of the inaccuracy at low RPM previously mentioned. Also in most cases Dinan's numbers will be higher at hi RPM because of the work we do to ensure proper heat exchanging that we find almost no one else does.

A few years ago, we put together a really in-depth article on our dyno process and how even slight variables can affect the outcome of any test.
http://dinancars.com/dinan-university/ - (Dynamometer Testing and The Modern BMW Engine)

It's a long article, but it gives you a really detailed looks at the process with a conclusion that has a good breakdown of what we covered. The most accurate thing we can say is that we've observed over 36 years of tuning, with most models we've tested, that the drivetrain loss is between 6.5 and 15 percent. It’s not as simple as a percentage, as it varies on car, transmission, RPM, vehicle speed and a myriad of other variables."

[Dippydo]

Originally Posted by jamoka3

This looks great, but I really want something I can “remove” for dealership services or warranty issues ( if they arise). The piggybacks can just be unplugged. When you do a re-flash how can you cover that up? Also if the ecu is flashed by BMW, or hooking up there diagnostics computers wont they be able to determine that something of out of whack? I think they can just wipe out your flash, and then what…you lost a crap load of money, and now BMW knows you modded your car out of spec, and can void your warranty.

From someone I know at BMW if you flash your ECU BMW will know. There is a flash counter in the computer and there is no way to back the counter up. Impossible to hide a flash on the new cars.

[AurélienFxx]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

Steve has responded directly to the whole drivetrain loss question before so I will just copy and paste that below. The synopsis, although extremely simplified, is the current generation of BMW's typically have a MAX drivetrain loss of around 12-13% through our testing. We will also be posting a video in the next few days explaining our dyno process since that has always been a talking point when speaking of Dinan so hopefully that will answer some questions as well.

"We do use a Dynapack chassis dyno and a DTS engine dyno for all of our testing. Like most OE's, we publish our crank numbers, not wheel horsepower numbers, simply to keep things as accurate as possible. Dinan tests multiple cars with multiple runs and averages them so no one chassis dyno test would be representative. When we compare our engine Dyno Data to our chassis dyno data we find that most if not all chassis dynos, including ours, overstates the lower RPM torque values. Our chassis dyno does not do a coast down for inertia and friction corrections. If we are using the chassis dyno once we have performed multiple Chassis dyno runs and averaged them we apply different correction factors to each RPM to correct for these inflated torque numbers. All this is done to ensure the most accurate reporting to our customers. We list both Stock and Dinan numbers using the same corrections to ensure the comparison is fair. If we are using the Engine Dyno the data is just averaged over multiple runs to get a fair average performance. With both the engine dyno and chassis dyno we ensure the room is as close to standard weather conditions as possible and all dyno runs are performed in the same weather window to ensure comparisons are fair. In most cases Dinan Dyno numbers will be lower than those you will get at low RPM because of the inaccuracy at low RPM previously mentioned. Also in most cases Dinan's numbers will be higher at hi RPM because of the work we do to ensure proper heat exchanging that we find almost no one else does.

A few years ago, we put together a really in-depth article on our dyno process and how even slight variables can affect the outcome of any test.
http://dinancars.com/dinan-university/ - (Dynamometer Testing and The Modern BMW Engine)

It's a long article, but it gives you a really detailed looks at the process with a conclusion that has a good breakdown of what we covered. The most accurate thing we can say is that we've observed over 36 years of tuning, with most models we've tested, that the drivetrain loss is between 6.5 and 15 percent. It’s not as simple as a percentage, as it varies on car, transmission, RPM, vehicle speed and a myriad of other variables."

Thanks for the precise answer. As a calibration engineer myself, I couldn't agree more !

[AurélienFxx]

Originally Posted by Dippydo

From someone I know at BMW if you flash your ECU BMW will know. There is a flash counter in the computer and there is no way to back the counter up. Impossible to hide a flash on the new cars.

If you OBD flash, the flash counter is increased.

The number of programming attempt is stored.
The number of successfull programming attempt is stored.
The programming date is stored.
The workshop code that made the programming is stored.

Those data are stored in a virtual EEPROM.

That's because you are flashing your DME using a BMW specific routine.

If you flash your DME in boot mode, the flash counter is NOT increased.

That's because you are flashing your DME at a very low level of operation using a technique called BootStrapLoading ( BSL ).
BSL directly access the memory. You are not using the BMW routine.

[FSociety]

AurélienFxx EndBosS

Any updates on which USA Tuners will have your tune?
This thread we're strictly interested for the N20 engine 228/328/428/528/X3 28 and 335/435/535/X3 35i

[Yellowflash]

Hi Aurélien,

So it's possible to have your tune, and not to be detected by dealership or BMW central if anything bad happens or during regular services?

I believe what you have just explained is that your tune can't be detected by BMW dealership at all?

Thank you!