[335BOY]

Originally Posted by toddalvandi

Ze4eMCe, thanks so much for the detailed reply, its very helpful to hear from a current GC owner. My last 5 cars have all been BMW's so I figured I'd shop around this time around but I keep finding myself coming back for many of the same reasons you mentioned.

Joe, your post has me cracking up, I can't say I disagree, lol

If your last 5 cars have been BMW then its time for a change. I've had 5 Audis with 2 BMWs in there. Change is great IMO and they are both great cars.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by trinim3

This has to be hands down the funniest post I've read in a while

I actually resent the fact that I drive a BMW. Most people think BMW drivers are douchebags. Or they think BMW is for people like you said who are going places... but haven't arrived yet. The stigma is that rich people buy BMWs for their kids and for their wives. There's a reason why hundreds of M5/M6s are sitting on the lots being discounted by $20-$30k. The majority of folks, not even rich people, wants to buy a $100k+ BMW because BMW is not known as high-end or upscale. It's known as "luxury sport" and really now it's just luxury. Let's face it, true enthusiasts now lament what BMW has become in this decade as they chase Toyota to try sell the most boring cars. Even long time BMW loyalists have moved on. Heck BMW is blaming the market rather than themselves for the lack of sports car sales. The majority of automotive magazines outlets use every opportunity they can to blast BMW for losing its touch and BMW has been losing comparison tests left and right. Meanwhile Audi to the best that I can tell gets lots of praise and admiration and if they do get blasted it's because people want more 'R' models stateside. Seems to be like the perception of Audi is on the rise while BMWs is in the decline.

I used to say that I'd only ever drive BMWs, then I started driving Audis and the whole experience for me has been very rewarding (I still drive a BMW as well of course). I can tell you that Audis get more love and people are much nicer when I drive my RS5 than when I drive my M4. When I drive my M4, people cut me off, try to race me, refuse to let me merge into lanes...with the Audi people give me thumbs up, nods, and in general are much more courteous. Night and day difference. Yes, Audi does share platforms with Volkswagen (which btw the VW Golf won Motortrend car of the year this year) but they also share platforms/engines with Porsche, Lamborghini and Bentley. The 4 series on the other hand shares platforms with a 320i.

I'll say the 435i with Msport pckg is a sweet looking car. But it's driving dynamics don't quite match the S4 or S5s. I think the difference, however, is small enough to pick whichever you prefer. I personally hold allegiance to no brand, because no brand holds allegiance to me. I simply give my money to whoever is making the best car at the present time. I also understand that there is no consensus on what the "best" is. Competition and choices is good for everyone.

Great post!. I agree. TOTALLY different reactions in BMW and AUDI. I HATE all that comes with driving a BMW.

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

I agree that the perception of BMW drivers is that we are all D-bags (some of us are?) but when you start bustin on their sales and their profits then you are barking up the wrong tree. BMW sales for most models is off the charts high. And unlike Audi and Merc that are padding their sales with A3 and CLA sales, BMWs only "loss leader" sedan is the 320i that I would argue is a better car than either of the aforementioned two. And all high end manufacturers are putting higher discounts on certain models that dont sell that well- check out the discounts on the A6 right now. But the 3-4 and 5 series of BMW as well as the American Made SUVs are all in line in sales (or ahead) in Europe. We always second guess, bitch and complain- while Munich just prints money.

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by Ze4eMCe

I agree that the perception of BMW drivers is that we are all D-bags (some of us are?) but when you start bustin on their sales and their profits then you are barking up the wrong tree. BMW sales for most models is off the charts high. And unlike Audi and Merc that are padding their sales with A3 and CLA sales, BMWs only "loss leader" sedan is the 320i that I would argue is a better car than either of the aforementioned two. And all high end manufacturers are putting higher discounts on certain models that dont sell that well- check out the discounts on the A6 right now. But the 3-4 and 5 series of BMW as well as the American Made SUVs are all in line in sales (or ahead) in Europe. We always second guess, bitch and complain- while Munich just prints money.

In no way shape or form did I bust on BMWs sales or profits as a whole which as you mentioned are at all time high. However, Toyota which makes the most unimpressive inspiring cars also sells the most passenger cars and that's what BMW is chasing. The models that are not selling well like the m5/m6 and the z4 are the ones that I referenced. I'm also referring to the US market not the European market. I made it very clear that the PERCEPTION of BMWs core brand (its identity and what it stands for) is eroding/changing. Not in reference to its sales. Toyota is a prime example of how image/brand perception doesn't correlate with sales.

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

Originally Posted by trinim3

In no way shape or form did I bust on BMWs sales or profits as a whole which as you mentioned are at all time high. However, Toyota which makes the most unimpressive inspiring cars also sells the most passenger cars and that's what BMW is chasing. The models that are not selling well like the m5/m6 and the z4 are the ones that I referenced. I'm also referring to the US market not the European market. I made it very clear that the PERCEPTION of BMWs core brand (its identity and what it stands for) is eroding/changing. Not in reference to its sales. Toyota is a prime example of how image/brand perception doesn't correlate with sales.

True on the M5/M6 and the Z4 ("sports" cars like the Z4 are simply not selling for anyone- even Audi TT) - only Porsche and higher end sell well.
Also agree on the Perception (reality) change of BMW core brand and meaning - But not so sure that BMW is "chasing" Toyota buyers with cars that are 2-3x more expensive. Now they may be chasing Toyota DRIVERS that have no connection to what the "Ultimate Driving Machine" WAS- But want the prestige of the brand? That's a tough sell too since Toyota owners tend to graduate to Lexus more often? Who knows- but I guess whatever they are doing they are doing it well- even though we may disagree with the way BMW is changing our cars. Also not so sure about the high luxury market not liking BMW- end of the year US sales MY 2013 for the higher end sedans:

Tesla: 17,555
Mercedes-Benz S-Class: 13,303
BMW 7 Series: 10,932
Lexus LS: 10,727
Audi A8: 6,300
Porsche Panamera: 5,421

The 7 is holding its own in the 80-120k$ market- before its next year refresh. If I had that money I would be buying the Audi- Love the A6-A8

And the S has been refreshed while the 7 is getting a heavy refresh/redesign next year so will be interesting. to see how the heavyweight fight works out.

[joewalton]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Great post!. I agree. TOTALLY different reactions in BMW and AUDI. I HATE all that comes with driving a BMW.

Then why would you buy something that you are ashamed of?

You're not going to change 30 years of carefully crafted BMW marketing about it being the Ultimate Driving Machine, and you aren't going to undo movies, TV shows, rap-songs, rock-songs singing is praises as a status symbol since the 1980's.

Those of us that own BMW's know that this comes with the car.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by joewalton

Then why would you buy something that you are ashamed of?

You're not going to change 30 years of carefully crafted BMW marketing about it being the Ultimate Driving Machine, and you aren't going to undo movies, TV shows, rap-songs, rock-songs singing is praises as a status symbol since the 1980's.

Those of us that own BMW's know that this comes with the car.

Was never ashamed of it but grew to dislike/hate image. Not good being seen in it in my business. I sold it and probably won't be back. Really like the M235 though..............

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by trinim3

This has to be hands down the funniest post I've read in a while

I actually resent the fact that I drive a BMW. Most people think BMW drivers are douchebags. Or they think BMW is for people like you said who are going places... but haven't arrived yet. The stigma is that rich people buy BMWs for their kids and for their wives. There's a reason why hundreds of M5/M6s are sitting on the lots being discounted by $20-$30k. The majority of folks, not even rich people, wants to buy a $100k+ BMW because BMW is not known as high-end or upscale. It's known as "luxury sport" and really now it's just luxury. Let's face it, true enthusiasts now lament what BMW has become in this decade as they chase Toyota to try sell the most boring cars. Even long time BMW loyalists have moved on. Heck BMW is blaming the market rather than themselves for the lack of sports car sales. The majority of automotive magazines outlets use every opportunity they can to blast BMW for losing its touch and BMW has been losing comparison tests left and right. Meanwhile Audi to the best that I can tell gets lots of praise and admiration and if they do get blasted it's because people want more 'R' models stateside. Seems to be like the perception of Audi is on the rise while BMWs is in the decline.

I used to say that I'd only ever drive BMWs, then I started driving Audis and the whole experience for me has been very rewarding (I still drive a BMW as well of course). I can tell you that Audis get more love and people are much nicer when I drive my RS5 than when I drive my M4. When I drive my M4, people cut me off, try to race me, refuse to let me merge into lanes...with the Audi people give me thumbs up, nods, and in general are much more courteous. Night and day difference. Yes, Audi does share platforms with Volkswagen (which btw the VW Golf won Motortrend car of the year this year) but they also share platforms/engines with Porsche, Lamborghini and Bentley. The 4 series on the other hand shares platforms with a 320i.

I'll say the 435i with Msport pckg is a sweet looking car. But it's driving dynamics don't quite match the S4 or S5s. I think the difference, however, is small enough to pick whichever you prefer. I personally hold allegiance to no brand, because no brand holds allegiance to me. I simply give my money to whoever is making the best car at the present time. I also understand that there is no consensus on what the "best" is. Competition and choices is good for everyone.

That's probably because the RS5 doesn't really draw much attention to itself. That's not to say the styling is boring, I think they look great and is also why they tend to age very well, Audi's RS cars just have a bit more of a subtle design than the current crop of BMW M cars.

Those of us who like cars and have the eye for detail can pretty much instantly identify an RS Audi from a standard Audi or an S trim Audi.

I also don't buy into the whole "stereotypical" automotive buyer. People who buy Audi and BMW are largely the same type of people. It's why so many, myself included, cross-shop both.

Or maybe where I live are full of both people who "just got a promotion" and douchebags alike as many people drive BMW's and Audi's around here. What's the stereotypical Mercedes buyer like? What "image" does that project?

To me they all pretty much project the same "image". People with the disposable income to afford a nice luxury vehicle.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

That's probably because the RS5 doesn't really draw much attention to itself. That's not to say the styling is boring, I think they look great and is also why they tend to age very well, Audi's RS cars just have a bit more of a subtle design than the current crop of BMW M cars.

Those of us who like cars and have the eye for detail can pretty much instantly identify an RS Audi from a standard Audi or an S trim Audi.

I also don't buy into the whole "stereotypical" automotive buyer. People who buy Audi and BMW are largely the same type of people. It's why so many, myself included, cross-shop both.

Or maybe where I live are full of both people who "just got a promotion" and douchebags alike as many people drive BMW's and Audi's around here. What's the stereotypical Mercedes buyer like? What "image" does that project?

To me they all pretty much project the same "image". People with the disposable income to afford a nice luxury vehicle.

I think youre probably right but some of us try to fly under the radar. My last S4(B7) was silver (to match mirrors) and debadged. To 99% of the population it looked just like a regular A4 except louder and faster. I knew what it was and thats all that matters to me.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Great post!. I agree. TOTALLY different reactions in BMW and AUDI. I HATE all that comes with driving a BMW.

And what exactly "comes with" driving a BMW? Besides poor people thinking you're rich, there is really nothing to it. BMWs don't really impress anyone, so quit thinking you're in a Pagani.

Even the R8 flies under the radar. I would get a few thumbs-ups and people snapping pics at first, but there's nothing that "comes with" driving it, either.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by trinim3

This has to be hands down the funniest post I've read in a while

I actually resent the fact that I drive a BMW. Most people think BMW drivers are douchebags. Or they think BMW is for people like you said who are going places... but haven't arrived yet. The stigma is that rich people buy BMWs for their kids and for their wives. There's a reason why hundreds of M5/M6s are sitting on the lots being discounted by $20-$30k. The majority of folks, not even rich people, wants to buy a $100k+ BMW because BMW is not known as high-end or upscale. It's known as "luxury sport" and really now it's just luxury. Let's face it, true enthusiasts now lament what BMW has become in this decade as they chase Toyota to try sell the most boring cars. Even long time BMW loyalists have moved on.

Agreed 100%.

Heh...good reason my BMW is my beater car.

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

Originally Posted by FC4

Agreed 100%.

Heh...good reason my BMW is my beater car.

LOL I want enough money to make my GC "a beater" (Like a beater watch instead of your Rolex) the only question is- if my GC is the beater, what would be my Rollie?
Hmmm Im thinking... an M4!

[bmwauug]

The Audi interior kills it for me (e.g., the Nav screen etc.) it's starting to look dated.

That said, all things aside, drive both back to back (I did this when choosing between an e90 335i m sport and an S4) - go with your gut. In retrospect, I bout my e90 in 2011, and the Audi Facelift and new BMW design came out a few months later. 3 years later I upgraded to the f30, after many of the kinks had been worked out.

Prices will be in range, specs will be in range and there can be countless debates about this or that, but in the end, your gut will tell you!

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

Originally Posted by bmwauug

The Audi interior kills it for me (e.g., the Nav screen etc.) it starting to look dated.

That said, all things aside, drive both back to back (I did this when choosing between an e90 335i m sport and an S4) - go with your gut. In retrospect, I bout my e90 in 2011, and the Audi Facelift and new BMW design came out a few months later. 3 years later I upgraded to the f30, after many of the kinks had been worked out.

Prices will be in range, specs will be in range and there can be countless debates about this or that, but in the end, your gut will tell you!

Yes sir- the only exception is when your gut is tied!? While I saved up for my car I went back and forth for almost a year- 435 Coupe or Gran Coupe- I was literally torn and not having seen a model with the CF front splitter, that changes the personality of the car, made it even harder to choose. Finally chose the GC of course and have not regretted the decision. But typically your right, your gut (and heart) will pull you to one brand or the other and one model vs the other. I cross shopped the S3 and chose the GC- its just of a substantial car to me- but if I lived in the city- I live in the burbs, I may choose the S3 just cuz its smaller.

[bmwauug]

Originally Posted by Ze4eMCe

Yes sir- the only exception is when your gut is tied!? While I saved up for my car I went back and forth for almost a year- 435 Coupe or Gran Coupe- I was literally torn and not having seen a model with the CF front splitter, that changes the personality of the car, made it even harder to choose. Finally chose the GC of course and have not regretted the decision. But typically your right, your gut (and heart) will pull you to one brand or the other and one model vs the other. I cross shopped the S3 and chose the GC- its just of a substantial car to me- but if I lived in the city- I live in the burbs, I may choose the S3 just cuz its smaller.

S3 is cheaper.

[joewalton]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Was never ashamed of it but grew to dislike/hate image. Not good being seen in it in my business. I sold it and probably won't be back. Really like the M235 though..............

Oh, so you're a blue collar worker. I get it now.

[bmwauug]

I like the way it drives. Never been happy in anything else. That said who cares what people think. It's your money.

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

Originally Posted by bmwauug

S3 is cheaper.

Yes S3 was about 10K cheaper and a different car altogether but I am coming from years of E46 so the S3 was more in my "size" range. But surprisingly I like the bigger, more "grown up" 4 GC- even though it is of course a bit softer than the E46- I like it and have gotten used to some its differences.

[ATLBlue]

I wanted to love the S3 as I like the concept of a very quick compact car but test drove it and walked away. I was hoping to find a 'downsized' more modern S4 but it felt a lot more like a stretched VW Golf. Did not feel planted enough, good power and torque but feels like a 2.0T pushed to the max (reminded me of my Stage II mk6 GTI), some hard/cheap plastics in the cabin, etc. Even though it is cheaper than an S4/5 or a F3x, you would get more value for money waiting for the new Golf R when it comes to the US.

Back on topic and let's continue to call ourselves DB because we drive BMW's that have become as dull as a Toyota Avalon

PS: my car is at the bodyshop for a week and I'll be driving a rental Camry. Maybe I will not even notice the difference....

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

Originally Posted by ATLBlue

PS: my car is at the bodyshop for a week and I'll be driving a rental Camry. Maybe I will not even notice the difference....

I rent cars a lot and I have driven the appliance they call the Camry- and uh I predict you'll notice the difference... However I will say that the Avalons are nice.

Hello My name is Z4MC, I am a BMW driving Douche Bag that doesn't know that my car is only one step removed from the appliance called the Toyota...
Oh wait that means we have already zoomed down past the Lexus?

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by Ze4eMCe

I rent cars a lot and I have driven the appliance they call the Camry- and uh I predict you'll notice the difference... However I will say that the Avalons are nice.

Hello My name is Z4MC, I am a BMW driving Douche Bag that doesn't know that my car is only one step removed from the appliance called the Toyota...
Oh wait that means we have already zoomed down past the Lexus?

lmao yes you will be able to tell the difference. Drive that Camry for a week and you'll appreciate your bimmer like never before. I honestly don't understand why people buy that Camry crap. I don't have a problem buying an economy sedan (heck some are even kinda fun) but the Camry gets ranked last behind the Mazda 6, Hyundai Sonata/Genesis, Honda Accord etc.

I always wondered if you have to be a douchebag to drive a BMW or does driving a BMW make you a douchebag? heheh

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

Originally Posted by trinim3

lmao yes you will be able to tell the difference. Drive that Camry for a week and you'll appreciate your bimmer like never before. I honestly don't understand why people buy that Camry crap. I don't have a problem buying an economy sedan (heck some are even kinda fun) but the Camry gets ranked last behind the Mazda 6, Hyundai Sonata/Genesis, Honda Accord etc.

I always wondered if you have to be a douchebag to drive a BMW or does driving a BMW make you a douchebag? heheh

No doubt it is true that 25-30k sedans have gotten better as technology has gotten better. And features that appear on higher end cars QUICKLY filter down to "average cars. But the Mazda 6 and Accord are super nice and I like to Buicks. I think however if I was in the 25-30k range and when I did have a family of two kids- id buy a 4 door GTI over any of the others and would sacrifice space. if we went to the beach or something we would rent and get their SUV all sandy and kept my GTI(s) clean and low(er) mileage. Love the current GTI also for sure. LOL on what came first the Dbag or the BMW!