[dlbrooks18]

The new 4 is nice evolution of E92 design, love it!

[Kayani_1]

Not true. All new Porsches have been criticized for their new electric steering compared to older one.

Show me a review or comparison where they said the new electric steering has better feel and feed back compared to the older one.

I guess the crowd that must have said amazing must be the same crowd that thinks F30 is just slightly worse then E9x in feel and feed back.

Also, BMW electric steering software is crap compared to the Porsche. That puts the crappy electric steering in F30 in perspective. So one can only imagine why we dislike the F30 so much. Only new guys moving into BMW's from Audi's, MB, and Lexus are in love with numb feel of new F30.

Originally Posted by Phaeron

A new Porsche 911 GT3 does and everyone who has driven that says it is AMAZING.

.

[Daytona]

I miss Chris Bangle.

[Phaeron]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Not true. All new Porsches have been criticized for their new electric steering compared to older one.

Actually all of the reviews said they prefer the feel of the older steering wheels but the accuracy more then makes up. Problem here is these guys who are complaining about Steering feel aren't saying so as they drive on daily commutes. They raise their dislike when they are pushing the car in high speed maneuvers on the track.

So they have a legit gripe. What feedback are you getting from your 3 series when you are going 65mph in a straight line? Or 35mph.. or 45mp?

On that note Chris Harris on the new Cayman S...

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Show me a review or comparison where they said the new electric steering has better feel and feed back compared to the older one.

Show me a review where the lack of steering feel and "Feedback" actually mattered? Most every reviewer has been unanimous about taking steering accuracy over feedback. Here is Chris Harris of drive talking about the M135 which uses the same eps of the F30.

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

I guess the crowd that must have said amazing must be the same crowd that thinks F30 is just slightly worse then E9x in feel and feed back.

The E9xs steering was decent... I have felt way better steering from a whole host of other cars. The best steering for feed back is Lotus which happens to not use Power Steering at all.

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Also, BMW electric steering software is crap compared to the Porsche. That puts the crappy electric steering in F30 in perspective. So one can only imagine why we dislike the F30 so much. Only new guys moving into BMW's from Audi's, MB, and Lexus are in love with numb feel of new F30.

I am sorry your complaint smacks of the "Poseur" driver. The guy who drives his car around the block and uses it for mundane tasks yet acts like he is some "DRIVING" specialists. The point here is if the drive was SO important you would be driving a Lotus Evora or Exige S.

Instead you drive a BMW E92 and stand here on a Soap Box talking up that car like it was a gold standard. Want watch the Automobile Mag that said the E92 M3s steering was about as numb as an RS5? Don't forget that the Mazda RX8 RS has a better steering then an M3 as well...

End of this I think the F30 bashers are just the same as the old school Evo community. This nitpicking and "OH IT ISN'T DRIVER FOCUSED ENOUGH FOR ME" attitude is just such a poseur cliché. No different the Evo 8 and Evo 9 driver opining about the greatness of their old school car over the Evo X which was superior to their shit boxes in every way. That "crappy" steering is just another niggle to pick to justify why you still have a car that looks like BMW's attempt to make a Japanese car.

[Propagator]

Phaeron,

I can sort of see why you feel frustrated, but I have quite a different take on this steering feel issue.

From what I can gather from the reviews of the newer Porsches and BMWs, you are correct in saying that the lack of feedback does not seem to be an issue in terms of setting a fast lap time on the track.

But I would disagree with your comment that most complaints about the feedback are coming from driving on the track, and that if you are driving normally at low speed the feedback does not matter. In fact, quite the opposite.

The kind of feedback that is lacking from the new crop of EPS is mostly the so called "on center feel" and "road surface feedback". In fact, neither are terribly important when pushing the car on the track, as they have little to do with the grip level of the front wheels, although they may give you more confidence. This is borne out by the fact that after all their complaining about the steering, these reviewers have no problem posting impressive laps in the new Porsches and BMWs.

What this type of feedback does is to give the driver a sense of engagement, a sense of connection with the act of driving. And I would argue that this is in fact more important in a sedan/4 seat coupe than in an all out sports car, and more important on a public road than on a track. I say that because, if you are blasting through a track in a new Cayman S, there is more than enough feedback to engange you even if you don't have that tingling sensation on your palm. In fact I'm surprised that these reviewers even notice such a thing. (I guess you get jaded if that's all you do)

You brought up the Lotus as an example. And that is in fact a car that engages you in every possible way. But it's also a terrible car to live with. And I think that's where the brilliance of the 3 series has been. It's a comfortable, practical car with a quiet interior and even a decent ride, but with surprisingly raw/engaging control feel. And this is the point that used to be praised the most by the most ardent 3 series fanbois like C&D. Not the outright performance, but the control feel. So the passenger is sitting in a comfortable semi-luxury car, while the driver can feel engaged to the act of driving even during a mundane everyday commute. But if you take that rawness away from the control, and you don't have much left to engange you, especialy on a public road.

This does not make the car bad, but just a car that feels far less engaging on a day to day basis, despite the fact that the track performance has improved. Whether this is important to you is a different question, but at least I think this is where many of the haters are coming from.

[Phaeron]

Originally Posted by Propagator

Phaeron,

I can sort of see why you feel frustrated, but I have quite a different take on this steering feel issue.

From what I can gather from the reviews of the newer Porsches and BMWs, you are correct in saying that the lack of feedback does not seem to be an issue in terms of setting a fast lap time on the track.

No frustration at all. In fact the opposite. I find the ideas being spouted is sad for BMW. This is an "enthusiast" community with only a few actually know anything of what their car can do.

Originally Posted by Propagator

But I would disagree with your comment that most complaints about the feedback are coming from driving on the track, and that if you are driving normally at low speed the feedback does not matter. In fact, quite the opposite.

The kind of feedback that is lacking from the new crop of EPS is mostly the so called "on center feel" and "road surface feedback". In fact, neither are terribly important when pushing the car on the track, as they have little to do with the grip level of the front wheels, although they may give you more confidence. This is borne out by the fact that after all their complaining about the steering, these reviewers have no problem posting impressive laps in the new Porsches and BMWs.

Actually the feedback matters most at high speeds because it allows you to know what the tires are doing other then grip matters. Example with a no power assists you can tell through the steering wheel exactly what the wheels are doing and feeling. With power assist all you get is a form of vibration that tells you absolutely nothing. When you turn the wheel of a car with no power assist you can tell by increment exactly where the wheels are pointing and if I may need to do any corrections.

You get NONE OF THIS from any steering whether it is EPS or Hydraulic.

Originally Posted by Propagator

What this type of feedback does is to give the driver a sense of engagement, a sense of connection with the act of driving. And I would argue that this is in fact more important in a sedan/4 seat coupe than in an all out sports car, and more important on a public road than on a track. I say that because, if you are blasting through a track in a new Cayman S, there is more than enough feedback to engange you even if you don't have that tingling sensation on your palm. In fact I'm surprised that these reviewers even notice such a thing. (I guess you get jaded if that's all you do) .

Its because what you are describing is a misunderstanding of road noise vs what real feedback is. Most of the reviewers like the feel because that is what it is doing. It gives you a sense that you are "engaged" despite it isn't. Its like those touch screens that have haptic feedback... the communication isn't telling you where or what it just gives you a vibration... That is what Hydraulic steering is... just noise.. The sad part is that is what the engineers have been saying forever... They have even said they are looking to transmit engine noise into the steering column to give people a sense of feedback. Why? because its all about feel not about what is actually going on. It is no different then having an audio system pump fake exhaust notes through the speakers while you drive.

Originally Posted by Propagator

You brought up the Lotus as an example. And that is in fact a car that engages you in every possible way. But it's also a terrible car to live with. And I think that's where the brilliance of the 3 series has been. It's a comfortable, practical car with a quiet interior and even a decent ride, but with surprisingly raw/engaging control feel. And this is the point that used to be praised the most by the most ardent 3 series fanbois like C&D. Not the outright performance, but the control feel. So the passenger is sitting in a comfortable semi-luxury car, while the driver can feel engaged to the act of driving even during a mundane everyday commute. But if you take that rawness away from the control, and you don't have much left to engange you, especialy on a public road.

This does not make the car bad, but just a car that feels far less engaging on a day to day basis, despite the fact that the track performance has improved. Whether this is important to you is a different question, but at least I think this is where many of the haters are coming from.

I think people are grabbing at straws. If you want to talk about handling and steering feedback anything less then no power assist is just a lie. Power assist is like eating with a sock over your tongue.. You aren't tasting the food you are just tasting the sock.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by Phaeron

I think people are grabbing at straws. If you want to talk about handling and steering feedback anything less then no power assist is just a lie. Power assist is like eating with a sock over your tongue.. You aren't tasting the food you are just tasting the sock.

That is pretty black and white don't you think. Of course no power assist is the best for feedback, but that doesn't mean that any type of assist will completely remove the feedback. The road feedback you get from a good hydraulic rack, say a BMW or a Porsche, is not just random noise. It is correlated with the impact the tires receive from the road surface. In other words, it is the back transmission of the steering force generated by the road surface to your palm. The part of the feedback that actually matters to going fast, the change in steering force due to the change in the grip level, is also the same thing in principle. The only real difference is the frequency of the signal that needs to be back-transmitted.

It has been pointed out that the current best EPS system has inherently higher internal friction than good HPS systems. This means that while it may be quick enough to back-transmit the change in grip level, which is low frequency, it is not quick enough to back-transmit the continuous impacts caused by the road surface, which is higher frequency. So you get the video-game like feeling with some of these EPS systems where the steering feels completely inert during normal driving.

The introduction of artificial steering noise that you speak of is an ad-hoc fix for the EPS that some engineers are contemplating to simulate the actual road feedback that existed in the HPS. This is very similar to the recent trend of generating fake exhaust noise through the speakers. You can say that it's just as good as the real exhaust noise, since the real one doesn't make you go any faster, and therefore it's just a noise anyway. What's wrong with replacing one type of noise with another? But many people are not happy about this, because we see a difference between a fake exhaust noise or a fake road feel coming from a computer, and the real ones that are generated mechanically.

Ultimately, as the fake exhaust noise, and possibly the fake road feedback, become realistic enough, this question will become purely philosophical. (Although it would be interesting to see how they can emulate the steering feedback as a function of the actual change in road conditions, which happens continuously.) But for now, I do think that there is a noticeable difference between the fake and the real. I can understand that none of these matter to you. But do keep in mind that it isn't just disgruntled E9x owners bitching about this. This is an industry-wide trend that has produced very negative reactions from some of the best car magazines. Also, I remember very clearly the reactions from the E46 owners when the E90 came about. There were a lot of criticism of the design and the size of the vehicle. But there were very little, if any, criticism about the dynamics and engagement aspect of it. I do remember some grumbling from the E46 ZHP owners, which was without a doubt a great car, but nothing even close to what you are seeing with the F3x.

[Kayani_1]

I am sorry but your post shows your frustration in trying to engage me in old vs new owners battle and name calling.

I can call you a "poseur" for not being able to tell the difference between feedback and feel vs accuracy dependent on steering angle/input. I can say that you are a wanna be enthusiast who can't even tell how important is feedback and feel in day to day driving and how it does not only matter ON track but off track in all driving situations.

Yet, I will not step down to that level of immaturity. I am not so sure how you can call me names or judge my driving style or ability with little or no knowledge about me on personal level.

Thanks for posting those videos as I have seen all of them in past. They do not prove your point but rather mine. The Porsche with their electric setup have lost that connection to the driver for which they were so well known. As that great feel an feedback accuracy is gone.

If you read most of new Porsche reviews or reviews of good EPS systems in other cars. You will realize that they are all criticized for much less feed back and feel that made their counter parts so special. Please, do not confuse feedback and feel with on track accuracy. Even though accuracy is greatly influenced by feel and feedback that a driver receives from the car. In which case hydraulic setup is far more superior to electric steering wheel (EPS) setup. Most reviewer or expert drivers will often complain that they wish EPS equipped cars have more feel and feedback.That is because it takes some faith getting used to the EPS.

If one wonders why is that the case with EPS? Then it is because as you turn a wheel u hope that it is doing what it is suppose to be doing at the front wheels and the programmers of the setup have not messed up. So it takes more faith in EPS setup which comes over few laps and not immediately to the driver. It is like taking a steering angle and if everything turns out Ok then your confidence rises and you go back and repeat again and again with more precision to improve your lap times. As you would in a video game with good game play response.

The counter parts of EPS steering the good hydraulic setups are more enjoyable and confidence inspiring because the feedback is accurate and immediate to the driver. As a driver you can feel what the front wheels are doing in a hydraulic setup rather then hoping and wishing and having faith in EPS to do what it is suppose to. A direct response to things happening at the front wheel allows you to adjust more quickly and efficiently as a driver in a good hydraulic setup vs a faith based system in EPS as it is mute and does not speak to the driver.


As far as talking about how lap times are not effected by EPS. That is also not fully true for reasons explained above in addition to the following. It is hard to compare two different generations of Cayman S which have different suspension geometry, drive line and powertrain effects, engine power, tire technology, brake upgrades as well as weight improvements. Just based on those improvements alone you might get better or equal lap times for one with EPS. It does not mean that steering feedback an feel is not an important category.

For more accurate lap time comparisons. You might have to look at two exact and identical cars one with EPS and one without. If you do so you will realize that the more confidence the driver has the more he is able to push his cars to the limit and far more sooner. In which case it will be not EPS but rather hydraulic setups.


I think most other stuff you are saying does not make sense. Comparing RX8 vs BMW E9x in steering feel is kind of point less. A lighter car carrying less weight over front wheels will give more confidence and will respond more immediately to steering inputs. Thus, this is often confused with feedback and feel. If the same RX8, BR-Z or Lexus LF-A had the hydraulic setup instead of EPS then they would even be more heavenly by inspiring greater confidence via feedback and feel to match its razor sharp responses due to light weight mass.

This is precisely why a new Lotus Exige S was ranked higher then some super cars and exotics when it comes to feel and feed back. Even higher then a BR-Z, RX8 or LF-A's.

As for M135i it recently lost a comparison of performance cars where its lap times were criticized in a group of cars where some did not have a EPS such as Lotus. So even M135i would improve upon its lap times with greater driver confidence that comes partly from the feedback and feel at the helm.

Bottom line is BMW EPS is no where near the caliber of a Porsche Cayman, RX8, Acura NSX, LF-A for multiple reasons. Some has to do with the inherit flaws of EPS and its placement as a setup. The other has to do with software development and excessive mass of BMW cars compared to the above mentioned.

So basically BMW electric steering is 3rd class setup that stands mute and numb like many others found on wanna be performance cars. However, as a car enthusiast who has owned more then a decade worth of various BMW's and driven countless more. I expect better from a car maker who makes performance oriented luxury cars with motto "Ultimate driving machine".

Alas, maybe I am holding on to something that used to but does not exist any more. I guess now BMW motto will be "Ultimate i-pad on 4 wheels"


P.S. just saw your other response to one of the other posters who is trying to explain same thing to you. I highly disagree with you that feedback and feel is only felt at higher speeds. You have lots of misconceptions. One can get good feedback and feel at lower speed corners as well as higher speed corners. I am sorry but you have lots of misconceptions and in your frustration you are just spewing them to justify your opinions.

Originally Posted by Phaeron

Actually all of the reviews said they prefer the feel of the older steering wheels but the accuracy more then makes up. Problem here is these guys who are complaining about Steering feel aren't saying so as they drive on daily commutes. They raise their dislike when they are pushing the car in high speed maneuvers on the track.

So they have a legit gripe. What feedback are you getting from your 3 series when you are going 65mph in a straight line? Or 35mph.. or 45mp?


Show me a review where the lack of steering feel and "Feedback" actually mattered? Most every reviewer has been unanimous about taking steering accuracy over feedback. Here is Chris Harris of drive talking about the M135 which uses the same eps of the F30.

The E9xs steering was decent... I have felt way better steering from a whole host of other cars. The best steering for feed back is Lotus which happens to not use Power Steering at all.


I am sorry your complaint smacks of the "Poseur" driver. The guy who drives his car around the block and uses it for mundane tasks yet acts like he is some "DRIVING" specialists. The point here is if the drive was SO important you would be driving a Lotus Evora or Exige S.

Instead you drive a BMW E92 and stand here on a Soap Box talking up that car like it was a gold standard. Want watch the Automobile Mag that said the E92 M3s steering was about as numb as an RS5? Don't forget that the Mazda RX8 RS has a better steering then an M3 as well...

End of this I think the F30 bashers are just the same as the old school Evo community. This nitpicking and "OH IT ISN'T DRIVER FOCUSED ENOUGH FOR ME" attitude is just such a poseur cliché. No different the Evo 8 and Evo 9 driver opining about the greatness of their old school car over the Evo X which was superior to their shit boxes in every way. That "crappy" steering is just another niggle to pick to justify why you still have a car that looks like BMW's attempt to make a Japanese car.

[Kayani_1]

+1

I agree on most everything in your post. Thanks for explaining the principals to him

Originally Posted by Propagator

Phaeron,

I can sort of see why you feel frustrated, but I have quite a different take on this steering feel issue.

From what I can gather from the reviews of the newer Porsches and BMWs, you are correct in saying that the lack of feedback does not seem to be an issue in terms of setting a fast lap time on the track.

But I would disagree with your comment that most complaints about the feedback are coming from driving on the track, and that if you are driving normally at low speed the feedback does not matter. In fact, quite the opposite.

The kind of feedback that is lacking from the new crop of EPS is mostly the so called "on center feel" and "road surface feedback". In fact, neither are terribly important when pushing the car on the track, as they have little to do with the grip level of the front wheels, although they may give you more confidence. This is borne out by the fact that after all their complaining about the steering, these reviewers have no problem posting impressive laps in the new Porsches and BMWs.

What this type of feedback does is to give the driver a sense of engagement, a sense of connection with the act of driving. And I would argue that this is in fact more important in a sedan/4 seat coupe than in an all out sports car, and more important on a public road than on a track. I say that because, if you are blasting through a track in a new Cayman S, there is more than enough feedback to engange you even if you don't have that tingling sensation on your palm. In fact I'm surprised that these reviewers even notice such a thing. (I guess you get jaded if that's all you do)

You brought up the Lotus as an example. And that is in fact a car that engages you in every possible way. But it's also a terrible car to live with. And I think that's where the brilliance of the 3 series has been. It's a comfortable, practical car with a quiet interior and even a decent ride, but with surprisingly raw/engaging control feel. And this is the point that used to be praised the most by the most ardent 3 series fanbois like C&D. Not the outright performance, but the control feel. So the passenger is sitting in a comfortable semi-luxury car, while the driver can feel engaged to the act of driving even during a mundane everyday commute. But if you take that rawness away from the control, and you don't have much left to engange you, especialy on a public road.

This does not make the car bad, but just a car that feels far less engaging on a day to day basis, despite the fact that the track performance has improved. Whether this is important to you is a different question, but at least I think this is where many of the haters are coming from.

[Frosty]

will there be any way to add Comfort Access without getting leather?

[Phaeron]

Originally Posted by Propagator

That is pretty black and white don't you think. Of course no power assist is the best for feedback, but that doesn't mean that any type of assist will completely remove the feedback. The road feedback you get from a good hydraulic rack, say a BMW or a Porsche, is not just random noise. It is correlated with the impact the tires receive from the road surface. In other words, it is the back transmission of the steering force generated by the road surface to your palm. The part of the feedback that actually matters to going fast, the change in steering force due to the change in the grip level, is also the same thing in principle. The only real difference is the frequency of the signal that needs to be back-transmitted.

You are absolutely WRONG. The "feedback" you are describing is road noise. The reason the steering wheels are padded is an attempt to dampen the noise of the pavement and the tires because that entire "feel" is completely and totally irrelevant. The vibration of the steering column being transmitted back to the steering wheel. This is utter and worthless noise. You do not need to know if the road is bumpy because your suspension is already telling you this. It doesn't help you one bit with driving and is little more then sensory garbage. It is static. Proper feedback that you are looking for is the resistance the wheel gives you to turn at speeds. THAT IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT. Hence why in EPS systems they started to make the steering wheel feel more weighted as you drive fast in Audis which is garbage too.

This is an example of feedback. I am driving down VIR and one part of the track was new tarmac. On the worn tarmac the pressure needed to turn the wheel is more because of grip but once you hit the initial pressure needing to turn the wheel is far less due to the slipperiness of the new tarmac but as the wheels hook up you feel the steering wheel start to resist your efforts to turn it. This is feedback that is relevant to driving. If the steering wheel is LINEAR and always requires the same pressure to turn the wheel despite grip then you have a numb steering wheel. The "feel" which is what reviews always put "" is a subjective. It doesn't matter but these dumb ass reviewers need something to talk about.

Originally Posted by Propagator

It has been pointed out that the current best EPS system has inherently higher internal friction than good HPS systems. This means that while it may be quick enough to back-transmit the change in grip level, which is low frequency, it is not quick enough to back-transmit the continuous impacts caused by the road surface, which is higher frequency. So you get the video-game like feeling with some of these EPS systems where the steering feels completely inert during normal driving.

Again.. the impacts of the road to the steering wheel is noise. They are no way beneficial to driving nor are they telling you any information that is needed. Go take a performance driving course because if you cannot understand what feedback is then you do not understand what real feedback. Accurate feedback is the steering wheel reacting to the forces exerting on the wheels via cornering forces and grip.

What you want the steering wheel to tell you is where the most resistance is.. So as you turn the steering wheel it shouldn't be just heavy or just light but instead be telling you how much resistance as you turn it. That is feedback.. As you are turning that wheel you should be feeling more and more resistance and the goal is to find the maximum point of resistance which means you are at the maximum corning of the car. It isn't just I turn wheel and the car points to the angle I want because that angle is changing due to slip. It just isn't loss of grip you should be feeling as well but the feeling of cornering forces pushing on the wheels. The reason being is as you go into a turn the wheels are slipping as the car begins to rotate. A great example is the slow motion shots of Chris Harris in the Cayman S turning at high speeds.

Now Power assist steering whether hydraulic or eps FAILS at this. The boosted nature to give you comfortable steering hides this in all regards. So people take the vibrations of the tires impacting the road as "feedback" when that is nothing but "Feel" which is subjective noise.

Originally Posted by Propagator

The introduction of artificial steering noise that you speak of is an ad-hoc fix for the EPS that some engineers are contemplating to simulate the actual road feedback that existed in the HPS. This is very similar to the recent trend of generating fake exhaust noise through the speakers. You can say that it's just as good as the real exhaust noise, since the real one doesn't make you go any faster, and therefore it's just a noise anyway. What's wrong with replacing one type of noise with another? But many people are not happy about this, because we see a difference between a fake exhaust noise or a fake road feel coming from a computer, and the real ones that are generated mechanically.

Again you are talking about road "feel" which is just noise and does not equate feedback which no HPS or EPS gives you.

[Propagator]

It seems you are simply refusing to read what I wrote, so I won't argue the point anymore.

I have said repeatedly in my previous posts that there are more than one kind of feedback, some of which help you go fast and some don't. I have fully conceded that the kind of feedback (which you call noise) that is missing from the EPS is the kind that is mostly irrelevant to going fast. And yet you go on and on arguing this very point that I myself argued right at the beginning to conclude that I am wrong.

The only real disagreement between you and me, despite your attempt to portray me as someone who doesn't understand what steering feedback is by lecturing me the points that I originally brought up, is that you consider certain type of feedback as noise, whereas I, and many auto journalists, don't. I even said that I could fully understand why someone would consider them noise, and that it is a matter of personal preference. But there again, you apparently decided you know exactly what should be signal and what should be noise for every human being on earth, (because of course the only thing anyone should care about driving is posting the fast lap time on a track, right?) so there is nothing to be said.