[Elk]

Originally Posted by gthal

What we are saying is that xDrive only enhances traction on acceleration. Braking and turning traction is the same for RWD and xDrive. Therefore, tires decide what car will perform better under braking and turning.

Exactly.

Also, the extra weight of xDrive, non staggered tires and the increased ride height (although this is largely cosmetic) will impact handling in summer.

Also true, although the downsides are always present - not only in the summer. Additionally, the fact the front wheels are driven with xDrive increases understeer. This is simply a matter of physics.

There is nothing wrong with xDrive. It does however mandate certain compromises in exchange for its increased traction upon acceleration in slippery conditions. As always, there is no free lunch.

If the compromises are worth it to you, or you cannot tell the difference, xDrive is a fine choice.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by bnekic

Your couldn't be more wrong!

Yeah, OK... tell us how Mr. Smart Guy. Tell me how xDrive increases traction in braking and turning?

[gthal]

Originally Posted by bnekic

^ you couldn't be more wrong. So what happens when you exit a turn and give it gas in xDrive vs RWD, AWD can exit a corner faster.

I agree... so where in my post did I say that was not true. I said it enhances traction when the gas pedal is used... kind of like accelerating out of a corner as you point out. So, tell me why my post "couldn't be more wrong" Mr Smart Guy. Let me say this again, I am NOT putting down xDrive cars as I think they are great. I am simply pointing out real differences and clarifying what xDrive can and can't do.

P.S. It can exit a corner faster (i.e. get on the gas sooner) but it can't take the corner as fast or enter as fast given its weight and propensity to understeer.

[Mahzari]

Originally Posted by gthal

I agree... so where in my post did I say that was not true. I said it enhances traction when the gas pedal is used... kind of like accelerating out of a corner. So, tell me why my post was so "wrong" Mr Smart Guy.

P.S. It can exit a corner faster (i.e. get on the gas sooner) but it can't take the corner as fast or enter as fast given its weight and propensity to understeer.

I completely agree with gthal and I think bnekic's confusing cornering/handling with cornering speed. He's saying that there's more acceleration out of corners, which is only making your argument stronger. So I don't see the need for hostility haha.

AWD and 4WD only help get the power to road once traditional 2WD grip is lost, but the sacrifice is more weight, a worse weight distribution, and a higher drivetrain loss.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Mahzari

I completely agree with gthal and I think bnekic's confusing cornering/handling with cornering speed. He's saying that there's more acceleration out of corners, which is only making your argument stronger. So I don't see the need for hostility haha.

AWD and 4WD only help get the power to road once traditional 2WD grip is lost, but the sacrifice is more weight, a worse weight distribution, and a higher drivetrain loss.

I agree... I shouldn't have used the "Mr. Smart Guy" comment Something about being told my comment was "completely wrong" and the LOL symbol at the end got under my skin... especially when I wasn't wrong. But, you are right... no need for any hostility of any kind.

[bnekic]

Yeah I guess the Evo, STi, Veyron and GTR should be RWD since they perform poorly with AWD.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by bnekic

Yeah I guess the Evo, STi, Veyron and GTR should be RWD since they perform poorly with AWD.

No... they are AWD for good reason. The GTR and Veyron need it to get their immense power to the ground efficiently. The Evo and STi are largely because that it the heritage of those brands. Go to the track and drive a GTR and then drive a RWD Porsche. The GTR is amazing, has great traction and puts the power down without any drama... that's the problem... no drama, no fun, no thrill (well, it is thrilling but mainly because the car is SO powerful and so fast).

AWD does not perform poorly in those applications but there is still a compromise in feel and fun. That is a personal thing and not everyone would agree. AWD doesn't perform poorly in the 328/335 either but it isn't there to help on track or aggressive summer driving performance. It is there to help in poor weather performance. Same reason why the M3 is RWD only... it is the most involving and capable platform for the track and no one buys an M3 caring about winter performance. Owners WOULD care about the extra weight of AWD in the M3.

So, you can think that this helps prove your point but it doesn't. If the 328/335 had 500HP, it would need AWD just to get the power to the road like the Veyron and GTR do too. It doesn't so the purpose of AWD in the 328/335 is poor weather performance... not to make the car a better handling, better track, better back road car. If this were the case, why doesn't BMW offer the drop in height (lower center of gravity), better summer tires and the sport suspension with xDrive cars? Why, because those who want xDrive want it for a very good reason and those who prefer RWD do so for a different reason. Both valid reasons.

Anyway, this is getting silly. We should just agree to disagree... although I think we actually agree except that you can't see that xDrive doesn't improve traction in all circumstances and that xDrive cars are not the better handling car in dry summer weather.

[Falafel Combo]

I don't agree that braking is 100% tires either. You can't speed into an intersection and suddenly slam on the brakes, and expect snow tires to save you. They won't. You'll still slip and slide. Well, the same goes for all seasons.


Good (snow) tires will certainly 'decrease' your braking distance, but so will good judgement and common sense with all seasons. So I'd say braking is maybe 30% tires. BTW, I still slide and slip like no ones business on my snow tires. I still have to drive cautiously.


Steering is a different story. More impact/bang-for-your-buck there with snow tires.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by shicobico

I don't agree that braking is 100% tires either. You can't speed into an intersection and suddenly slam on the brakes, and expect snow tires to save you. They won't. You'll still slip and slide. Well, the same goes for all seasons.


Good (snow) tires will certainly 'decrease' your braking distance, but so will good judgement and common sense with all seasons. So I'd say braking is maybe 30% tires. BTW, I still slide and slip like no ones business on my snow tires. I still have to drive cautiously.


Steering is a different story. More impact/bang-for-your-buck there with snow tires.

I completely agree that good common sense and driving skill in winter is the most important factor. However, driving skill being equal, snow/ice tires are proven to decrease stopping distance compared to all seasons. Some tests show very significant differences on ice... 10 to 15ft could mean hitting someone/thing or not. But, I agree, no tire can save an idiot in bad weather

[wayman519]

xdrive (AWD) will kick the shit out of RWD in snow, ice and maybe offroad. That said RWD with a good winter set will suffice for most people. The question is do i need Xdrive ? that is up to you and the location you live in. You buy a 3er for its RWD! This car is designed in Bavaria and the 3er RWD does fine in their winters.

[woderd]

Its so funny how people try to stick up for RWD. Listen AWD will ALWAYS be better. No one wants to here the comparisons you make up to try to make yourself feel better that you dont have AWD.

[bnekic]

Haha so your saying the ONLY reason the GTR and Veyron have AWD is because of their power output and not the performance characteristics of AWD?

So why don't all the other high horsepower cars use AWD?

Your statements are just going in circles.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by woderd

Its so funny how people try to stick up for RWD. Listen AWD will ALWAYS be better. No one wants to here the comparisons you make up to try to make yourself feel better that you dont have AWD.

Agreed... AWD will always be better in bad conditions with similar tires as a RWD car. No one is sticking up for RWD... my impression of the discussion was simply to clarify that AWD does not improve braking or turning (when gas is not being applied) and that, in those instances, winter tires are useful. RWD cars "can" be better in turning and braking if their tires are better... but, as I said, AWD is still the overall preferred option for bad weather regardless and if both cars have similar tires then it is an absolute no brainer. This didn't start off, nor was it intended to be, an RWD vs RWD debate (I think posts #16 and #17 started that because no one was "bashing" xDrive before that point other than to clarify when it doesn't help)... simply highlighting that AWD doesn't magically fix all traction issues.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by bnekic

Haha so your saying the ONLY reason the GTR and Veyron have AWD is because of their power output and not the performance characteristics of AWD?

So why don't all the other high horsepower cars use AWD?

Your statements are just going in circles.

You are painful to discuss this with. AWD in some cars is there for a reason. If it were the best performance option on performance cars, they would all have AWD. It is a very good choice but not always the best choice. Spend some time on a track (real time not just a day) and tell me you don't then appreciate RWD in that environment... controlling the car with the throttle, power induced oversteer, etc. All part of the skill, thrill and fun of driving RWD cars in this environment. Is AWD bad, not at all but it is different and not the "preferred" choice for high performance vehicles by many. Some do and that's fine too.

In any event, I'm done discussing this with you. Trying to win an argument by noting other cars that choose AWD as your evidence is a little silly. For some reason, you just don't want to acknowledge the facts as they were presented. I have not put down xDrive cars in any way... I just clarified how xDrive helps the car in traction and performance and you don't want to accept it which is fine. You take a 335i and a 335xi to the track (as an extreme example) and see which car instructors and very skilled drivers pick and what their laptimes are. Again, this is the extreme example and, as I have said over and over, for daily driving it isn't relevant. Anyway, I said I wouldn't debate this with you any longer and I just did... I'm done now as it is a waste of my typing time.

P.S. To all xDrive owners other than bnekic... great choice, nothing wrong with it, very capable platform... still get winter tires for turning and braking .

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by Mahzari

I completely agree with gthal and I think bnekic's confusing cornering/handling with cornering speed. He's saying that there's more acceleration out of corners, which is only making your argument stronger. So I don't see the need for hostility haha.

AWD and 4WD only help get the power to road once traditional 2WD grip is lost, but the sacrifice is more weight, a worse weight distribution, and a higher drivetrain loss.

Not only can AWD come of a corner faster but it can enter into one almost as fast as a RWD. Thats how Audi won all those rally race with their Quattro system. We are not talking about a 1990 Jeep Grand Cherokee's 4WD system here, the BMW X-drive is design for performance, its light, rear wheel bias to elimiate understeer and distribute torque lighting fast. While your RWD Bimmer is drifting thru a turn, the AWD will power its way thru with no slipping what so ever. As far as additional weight, we are talking less than 300 pounds here, about as heavy as having an adult male in your car. Gas mileage and accelation are virtually identical between the two. Unless you track your car, you will not notice any benefit of RWD on a public road.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by The X Men

Not only can AWD come of a corner faster but it can enter into one almost as fast as a RWD. Thats how Audi won all those rally race with their Quattro system. We are not talking about a 1990 Jeep Grand Cherokee's 4WD system here, the BMW X-drive is design for performance, its light, rear wheel bias to elimiate understeer and distribute torque lighting fast. While your RWD Bimmer is drifting thru a turn, the AWD will power its way thru with no slipping what so ever. As far as additional weight, we are talking less than 300 pounds here, about as heavy as having an adult male in your car. Gas mileage and accelation are virtually identical between the two. Unless you track your car, you will not notice any benefit of RWD on a public road.

I agree with this... other than IMO 300 lbs is noticeable. It's roughly the difference between a C63 and an M3 and you can notice the weight difference in that instance... it's not an "in your face" difference or necessarily bad but you can notice it.

[bnekic]

That's great thank you for all this information I've already known.

Now about 98% of 328/335 owners will never track their car so based on your info xDrive is the way to go

P.S. I'm turning and braking great with my all-season Pirelli's!

[gthal]

Originally Posted by bnekic

That's great thank you for all this information I've already known.

Now about 98% of 328/335 owners will never track their car so based on your info xDrive is the way to go

P.S. I'm turning and braking great with my all-season Pirelli's!

You already knew all of this? Oh... sorry, I didn't get that from your post where you said I was "completely wrong" and that "AWD provides extra traction in all situations and speeds." Our entire discussion was for nothing then as I must have misinterpreted your earlier posts

I agree on xDrive being the way to go if you don't drive the car at the track as you point out and have to drive in bad winter conditions. I think I said that a bunch of times already... maybe I didn't and I'm halucinating

P.S. I'm sure your Pirelli all seasons are great and I'm glad you enjoy them and their winter performance.

[bnekic]

[Mahzari]

Originally Posted by The X Men

Not only can AWD come of a corner faster but it can enter into one almost as fast as a RWD. Thats how Audi won all those rally race with their Quattro system. We are not talking about a 1990 Jeep Grand Cherokee's 4WD system here, the BMW X-drive is design for performance, its light, rear wheel bias to elimiate understeer and distribute torque lighting fast. While your RWD Bimmer is drifting thru a turn, the AWD will power its way thru with no slipping what so ever. As far as additional weight, we are talking less than 300 pounds here, about as heavy as having an adult male in your car. Gas mileage and accelation are virtually identical between the two. Unless you track your car, you will not notice any benefit of RWD on a public road.

Why are you trying to argue with me? We're making the same points (except my spelling is a little better).

All-wheel drive is better at putting down power at slow speeds and accelerating out of corners, but they come with a weight penalty. Personally, I live in SoCal (no rain, let alone snow), so I like rear-wheel drive because if everything's under control, then it's boring.

The only fun way to drive a car (with low limits like my 328i) is to turn DSC off and have some fun.

[Ron Scott]

Originally Posted by bnekic

Seems like the guys that didn't get xDrive love bashing it for some reason.

Yup.

The lady doth protest too much methinks...

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Ron Scott

Yup.

The lady doth protest too much methinks...

Not I... good chance I will own one so why would I bash it?

Just discussing these issues many xDrive owners seem to get defensive for some reason. I didn't see anyone here bash xDrive... all anyone did was clarify when/how it adds value and what some of the limitations are perceived to be. If that is bashing then we might as well stop discussing any issue. As a matter of fact, it started off more as a tire discussion than anything until it got off topic (#16/#17) as a RWD vs AWD issue.