[mnikhil]

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Saw this while browsing the web


http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

[TurboSpecC]

The 4er sure leases better! I'm sure Audi's next-gen A4/A5 are going to be stunning, but the current version sure has dated tech compared with the latest iDrive/HUD available in the bimmer.

[doug_999]

The more "Lexus Like" BMW makes their cars, the better they sell. That's the plan. Drive a 2011 3-series coupe and then a new 4-series and the steering alone will tell you they are appealing to the mass market now. So that makes it less of a "driver's car". That said, I expect the new S5 to be lightened up as well and I would be interested to see a review on the new S5 vs. the 435.

[dL.]

I've tried both extensively.

At the end I would still choose a 435 over as it is more of a complete package IMO.

I guess I am in the majority, but I actually prefer the new so-called "numb" steering over the previous generation. If it wasn't for that change, I would've never considered a BMW. It was actually a breaking point for me. It isn't numb at all IMO and in sport mode it is quite stiff and inspiring. Perhaps I don't track or push my car so hard it's going to spin... that's why?

Audi steering wheel did not feel more inspiring than a F32 nor my F30. In fact, it felt quite disconnected to me especially in tight cornering situations. It doesn't feel right to me, and I have tried an A3, A4, S4, S5 and even RS5 and I don't know how to describe the Audi steering. It just feels weird to me.

The F30 and especially F32 is a much better balanced car. That to me is a huge selling point. Sure, I can feel the differential kicking in when I tried both the S5 and even their flagship RS5, and you feel like you have made the best cornering experience ever each time, but it just felt so artificial almost to a point where a driving instructor actually sat beside you and corrected your steering and throttle. Not my forte, maybe to you.

Seating position. Let's just say, one has adjusted bolster and the other doesn't. Once I realized how good a tight bolster can bring to the overall driving experience, I can never choose another car without it.

Transmission, which C&D didn't talk about. I tried both A/T and I much prefer the ZF8 over the DCT, with one exception and I will mention that in a bit. I actually like how the car "actually" respond to you when you shift, even if it is an inappropriate shift or the wrong timing. It is IMO a huge UX mistake for a computer to override your response without acknowledging it, and that is where DCT failed to me. I wanted to downshift 2 gears in a row, but I would have to press it like 6 times to get it to engage. In ZF8, you can do that and the car will downshift twice at the most appropriate time for you, and it is usually instantaneous. Am I the only one that prefers the ZF over their DCT?

Let's talk about the exception. I love how the S5 DCT auto downshift and rev-match as you brake and approach a corner. That is just so smart because I don't always want to manually control my gears, but I hate turning or cornering without having it put in a low gear. The S5 fixed that and I think it's a huge complement to the driving experience.

I must say the noise vs driving engagement department, S5 wins hands down. Sounds wayyyyyyyyy better than the 435, but when you add MPPK and exhaust, then it becomes closer but still nowhere as close. Though I heard the S5 is artificial or they have sound tubes feeding into cabin?

I still don't get why people prefer MMI. Is there some magic menu or tricks that I don't know about? Let's just say that if the menu doesn't go down in a clockwise rotating position, then something is wrong with the UX. It is industry standard that clockwise goes right or down. How would you feel if your steering wheel actually reversed your turning?

There's way more to talk about, but I will continue later if anyone is interested in hearing more.

Summary of Pros on each car, in my opinion:

BMW:
- Better Balance and Handling
- Better Engine delivery / smoothness. Probably because of low end torque.
- Better transmission experience
- Better navigation and entertainment interface and experience
- +/- shifter implemented correctly
- Better leasing rate
- All-inclusive no cost 80k service
- Better wiper UX design. Push in to engage or disengage. Smart design.
- Better seating ergonomic. Very smart to include side bolster adjustment.

Audi:
- Better engine and exhaust noise
- Better auto-downshift & rev-match algorithm
- Better fit & finish in the interior
- Better leather quality
- Slightly better audio system when comparing B&O and HK Logic
- Better exhaust pipe implementation with the diffuser and rear bumper
- LED taillights. Destroys the F32.
- Audio volume knob at a logical place.
- Climate control can be controlled all at once, without independently setting both sides to the same temperature
- Better wiper design implementation. Auto hides when not in use.

dL

[kevinpb639]

Lets see how the S5 will stack up to the M4...

[Cl0ud7]

Originally Posted by kevinbp639

Lets see how the S5 will stack up to the M4...

You mean RS5? S5 and 335i are stacked up correctly...

Though the E9X M3 is already a better car than the RS5. Will see if that holds true for the M4.

[ToyotaBMW]

I think most important for us enthusiasts would be that the F30 is not superior in performance when compared to a old car. I sure hope that the new S5/S4 is a step up and not going to be just competition to the F30 so that BMW would need to also step up their game so that we as consumers will have better cars to drive in the next generation. Hopefully the next gen will be much lighter cars and possibly both manufacturers can figure out the steering feel.

[mnikhil]

This is the first time they are using an eps system in their cars and it can only get better from here on. I am waiting for what BMW has to offer in the F3X generation LCI. I have never driven an F32 but from what I have read the steering has seemed to improved slightly from the F30. I have actually come to enjoy the steering of my F30 during the commute but when I am trying to have some fun I do miss the connection I had with road that was clearly present in my former 135i.

I have also never driven an S5 so I cannot say anything good/bad. The design has become timeless and Audi have succeeded in creating a competitor to the BMW driving thrill. I believe it is unfair to compare it the 435i to the S5 until BMW releases a 435is or M435i of some sort to make the two cars completely equivalent on paper. In this match up they did lose in the "Chasis" section so I guess C&D were happy with the amount of power that the 435i had and the steering & feel was the issue for them.

BMW claim to have reinvented the EPS and it is set to debut in the F80/2 and I couldn't be more excited! If it really is as good as they claim then BMWs may once again be the "Ultimate Driving Machine".

[JRV]

Originally Posted by mnikhil

This is the first time they are using an eps system in their cars and it can only get better from here on. I am waiting for what BMW has to offer in the F3X generation LCI. I have never driven an F32 but from what I have read the steering has seemed to improved slightly from the F30. I have actually come to enjoy the steering of my F30 during the commute but when I am trying to have some fun I do miss the connection I had with road that was clearly present in my former 135i.

I have also never driven an S5 so I cannot say anything good/bad. The design has become timeless and Audi have succeeded in creating a competitor to the BMW driving thrill. I believe it is unfair to compare it the 435i to the S5 until BMW releases a 435is or M435i of some sort to make the two cars completely equivalent on paper. In this match up they did lose in the "Chasis" section so I guess C&D were happy with the amount of power that the 435i had and the steering & feel was the issue for them.

BMW claim to have reinvented the EPS and it is set to debut in the F80/2 and I couldn't be more excited! If it really is as good as they claim then BMWs may once again be the "Ultimate Driving Machine".

BMW also claimed the M235i is faster than the 1M Coupe but tests have proven it false just short. It's all ///Marketing but the F80/82 should have much better steering than the F30/32 series. They focused on this but we will see.

[BimmerBoomer]

No M power pack on the car? And it's well known that the 8 speed automatic suits the torque characteristics of the engine much better. I recently drove a 435i xDrive with the M power pack and the 8 speed and was reasonably impressed. And my daily driver is an M3 DCT coupe. My previous car was a 335i coupe 6-speed with a Dinan stage 2 package. I was very impressed with the way this car got the torque down without doing power squats. The steering feel in Sport was different from what I'm used to but I think I could get used to it.

[ft1330]

Originally Posted by doug_999

The more "Lexus Like" BMW makes their cars, the better they sell. That's the plan. Drive a 2011 3-series coupe and then a new 4-series and the steering alone will tell you they are appealing to the mass market now. So that makes it less of a "driver's car". That said, I expect the new S5 to be lightened up as well and I would be interested to see a review on the new S5 vs. the 435.

ZZzzz buy a Porsche

[Alpine435i]

Originally Posted by Jim Pearce

And it's well known that the 8 speed automatic suits the torque characteristics of the engine much better.

Really? Care to explain your thought process on that one?

Tight and closely spaced gearing as in the 8AT is best suited for a high revving NA engine with peak HP near redline in order to keep the car in the power-band. Those are not characteristics of the N55. With all of the torque in the mid-range, taller gearing is what's preferred as the engine will spend more time in load where more torque is made. Case and point, the video below. Notice the majority of the time though the gears, the engine is in a range of 5700-7000 RPM...well beyond the point where torque has already taken a nose-dive.

So, no...the 6MT actually suits the torque characteristics of the engine better.

[mnikhil]

Originally Posted by ft1330

ZZzzz buy a Porsche

The Cayman GTS is sure looking nice

[ft1330]

Originally Posted by Alpine435i

Really? Care to explain your thought process on that one?

Tight and closely spaced gearing as in the 8AT is best suited for a high revving NA engine with peak HP near redline in order to keep the car in the power-band. Those are not characteristics of the N55. With all of the torque in the mid-range, taller gearing is what's preferred as the engine will spend more time in load where more torque is made. Case and point, the video below. Notice the majority of the time though the gears, the engine is in a range of 5700-7000 RPM...well beyond the point where torque has already taken a nose-dive.

So, no...the 6MT actually suits the torque characteristics of the engine better.

I hear your point but it's pretty much defeated by the 0-60 times which appear to favor the 8AT

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by Alpine435i

Really? Care to explain your thought process on that one?

Tight and closely spaced gearing as in the 8AT is best suited for a high revving NA engine with peak HP near redline in order to keep the car in the power-band. Those are not characteristics of the N55. With all of the torque in the mid-range, taller gearing is what's preferred as the engine will spend more time in load where more torque is made. Case and point, the video below. Notice the majority of the time though the gears, the engine is in a range of 5700-7000 RPM...well beyond the point where torque has already taken a nose-dive.

So, no...the 6MT actually suits the torque characteristics of the engine better.

Not really. The 6MT is fun but slower than any auto 6-7-8 speed available on the N54/55.

That's why anyone drag racing an N55 will pull the paddle around 5800/5900rpm. An N54 the pull is at 6200. Tight gearing will keep any car in the meat of the power band regardless of what RPM it occurs at.

[Alpine435i]

Originally Posted by ft1330

I hear your point but it's pretty much defeated by the 0-60 times which appear to favor the 8AT

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

Not really. The 6MT is fun but slower than any auto 6-7-8 speed available on the N54/55.

He mentioned it "suits the torque characteristics of the engine much better," which I responded to. Not 0-60.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by Alpine435i

He mentioned it "suits the torque characteristics of the engine much better," which I responded to. Not 0-60.

Responding to your 6MT is better statement.

6MT does not suit anything better. It is better than a 4MT or a 5MT, (wonder why the increase from 3 to 4 to 6 speeds over the years? ) but not better than a 7 or 8 speed trans.

More gears are better regardless of the type of transmission or shape of the power band. They shorten rpm drop on gear changes the more seamless the power delivery the better the car performes.

Corvette & Porsche run 7MT's because its better than the 6MT they used to use.

[kevinpb639]

Originally Posted by Cl0ud7

You mean RS5? S5 and 335i are stacked up correctly...

Though the E9X M3 is already a better car than the RS5. Will see if that holds true for the M4.

yes you are correct I obviously don't know my audis

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

Responding to your 6MT is better statement.

6MT does not suit anything better. It is better than a 4MT or a 5MT, (wonder why the increase from 3 to 4 to 6 speeds over the years? ) but not better than a 7 or 8 speed trans.

More gears are better regardless of the type of transmission or shape of the power band. They shorten rpm drop on gear changes the more seamless the power delivery the better the car performes.

Corvette & Porsche run 7MT's because its better than the 6MT they used to use.

I disagree. The "more gear the better" mantra held true in the old days when you were going from 3 to 4 to 5 gears, but past that, it's not about performance anymore; the extra gears help boost fuel-economy rating which is also good for marketing.

The Corvettes you speak of only need one gear change to 60mph and, at least for the C6 you can exceed 100mph in 3rd gear and hit 186mpg in 5th gear. But of course if you're not racing, in the real world, the extra gears are for comfort cruising and better fuel economy.

[Alpine435i]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

Responding to your 6MT is better statement.

6MT does not suit anything better. It is better than a 4MT or a 5MT, (wonder why the increase from 3 to 4 to 6 speeds over the years? ) but not better than a 7 or 8 speed trans.

More gears are better regardless of the type of transmission or shape of the power band. They shorten rpm drop on gear changes the more seamless the power delivery the better the car performes.

Corvette & Porsche run 7MT's because its better than the 6MT they used to use.

Yeah. I guess you're right.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

I disagree. The "more gear the better" mantra held true in the old days when you were going from 3 to 4 to 5 gears, but past that, it's not about performance anymore; the extra gears help boost fuel-economy rating which is also good for marketing.

The Corvettes you speak of only need one gear change to 60mph and, at least for the C6 you can exceed 100mph in 3rd gear and hit 186mpg in 5th gear. But of course if you're not racing, in the real world, the extra gears are for comfort cruising and better fuel economy.

The extra gears at the top for fuel economy allow more aggressive closer spaced gears at the bottom where you need the torque multiplication.

The MT goes to 1:1 in 5th while the Auto goes to 1:1 in 6th. Additionally each gear up to 1:1 is more aggressive, 1st gear MT 4:11 vs. Auto 4:71

Manual gear ratios – I/II/III 4.11/2.32/1.54 :1
Manual gear ratios – IV/V/VI/R 1.18/1.00/0.85/3.73 :1

Automatic gear ratios – I/II/III 4.71/3.14/2.11
Automatic gear ratios – IV/V/VI 1.67/1.29/1.00
Automatic gear ratios – VII/VIII/R 0.84/0.67/3.30

[TheBingoBalls]

Why I don't pay attention to these comparisons with a numbered rating system even if BMW is the winner. This stuff is never consistent. How many times have we read how crap the steering is on Audi's in general but C&D gives them a 10? That would indicate that the steering on Audi is flawless and can go up against the steering of BMW's of old. I don't think so. Handling is also a perfect 10? I don't believe that one bit because the next comparison when they put a C-Class or a ATS in there, they'll go back to saying Audi still hasn't fixed the understeer or chassis problem the have always been plagued with and they'll score it a 7 and then they'll score BMW high and say this is why BMW continues to be on the 10 Best list, it's the perfect balance yada, yada, yada.

So C&D is able to give out 10's, but only gives a 9 to BMW's 8AT? Last I checked, everyone has praised the 8AT, saying it's as good as it can get without it being a DCT. It just doesn't make sense. The Audi probably still wins even if you adjusted those scores but it's whatever the tester wants to throw in there and doesn't reflect the car.

How many times have we read that Audi's interiors make Mercedes and BMW's feel outdated and how the current interior for the 3 and 4-Series are nothing to write home about yet it still got a 10 vs. Audi's 9? This score is just a bunch of "lets pick a number of a hat".