[joewalton]

Originally Posted by spuntyb

Manhattan <--> Bergen County

You'll see me around. Can't miss me.

It's a good thing our cars are different colors; would be too simple to confuse one for the other accidentally that way

[Level3]

I have a 328i and I like it. I like the way the GC looks as well. I don't know if I like it better. I think the 3 series looks more muscular and the GC looks a little sleeker. BUT, the way this guy above me spouts off about the GC all the time. The way he TRIES to make it superior. It makes me NOT like the GC. I don't know if that makes sense but this dudes attitude has completely turned me off of this car. That's my opinion as a fairly new member.

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by joewalton

[IMG]http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...TCOMPAROFR.jpg[/IMG]

The primary difference between the 3 Series M-Sport and the 4 Series M-Sport is the design of the front fascia. If you look at the image above, the E90 is the top row, the F3X is the bottom row.

The design signature of the last-gen E90 LCI was a "U" shape or "swoopy jaw" that ran under each headlight, through the front bumper, and down below the lower air duct. I can post another pic if unclear, but it's there on the top left. Let your eye flow from the flat area under the headlight, how it curves down below the front duct, and then back up and under the other headlight in a "U" shape.

This swoopy jaw also was pretty prominent on the E90 M-Sport LCI as well, that's the photo upper right. Looked too similar to the base LCI, I was disappointed back then.

What I did not like about the F30 M-Sport when it was first released two years ago was that it again looked way to similar to the E90 LCI in both the base an M-Sport configurations. Same "U" shaped swoopy jaw. I chose a Luxury line because it's new front fascia was very different than the E90's I'd spend 7 years in.

What got me very excited about the 4 Series M-Sport is that it was a big departure from the "U" shaped design language and instead picked up on the new M4 which had what I call a "boxed" front design, the upper 50% and the lower 50% almost mirror each other, no swoopy jaw from the headlights down to the lower duct, instead the front bumper is a hard divider.

Having been in 3 different E9X's over the course of 7 years, I was done with that car, really wanted something fresh and new. So for those in E90's and then into F30 M-Sport's, one of the big advantages of jumping over to the F36 Gran Coupe is that (among other things) there is no confusing the front of the car with the older E90 bodystyle or the F30 bodystyle if you go Gran Coupe M-Sport.

Thanks. As an architect, I appreciate your attention to detail on line, proportion and aesthetics. I don't disagree with your assessment and conclusions regarding that subject, but for some reason I thought you were hinting at dynamic differences between the two.

I thought I'd read that there were some mechanical/componentry differences in the suspension between the 3 and the 4, and honestly that's been my biggest factor in considering the GC (4 Series), certainly over aesthetics (like you I don't particularly care for the M-sport front fascia, though I do love the rear valence and steering wheel).

[wolves]

Originally Posted by Level3

I have a 328i and I like it. I like the way the GC looks as well. I don't know if I like it better. I think the 3 series looks more muscular and the GC looks a little sleeker.

This and I'm not a fan of the 4 series rear. It looks smooshed from the top down to me. But I love the side profile and front

[Treeboy]

Originally Posted by spuntyb

We cross-shopped it with the F31 for a hot second, but we have a baby still in a rear facing seat and a dog. Getting in and out of that back seat wasn't much better than a regular 2 door coupe, and that boot was barely useable beyond the sedan boot, at least to us.

Any of you F36 drivers here could compare access to the child (loading/unloading) in car seat in F30 vs. F36? Rear or front facing car seats? Is it considerably more painful in GC due to the smaller rear doors?

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

[ska///235i]

Originally Posted by Treeboy

Any of you F36 drivers here could compare access to the child (loading/unloading) in car seat in F30 vs. F36? Rear or front facing car seats? Is it considerably more painful in GC due to the smaller rear doors?

I test my graco rear facing and it just fits (Im 5'8). Should be better on the passenger side.

You just have to angle the seat into the back. Its not practical but rear facing is only 16 months

Also have to be careful with the frameless doors (the window glass)

[Treeboy]

Originally Posted by ska///235i

I test my graco rear facing and it just fits (Im 5'8). Should be better on the passenger side.

You just have to angle the seat into the back. Its not practical but rear facing is only 16 months

Also have to be careful with the frameless doors (the window glass)

Thanks. We are past rear facing with child #1, and it was no issue at all in my E90, which was not my daughter's DD (wify drives X35d). But I need to be able to use my car to transport child (or two in case the family will grow in the future) on occasion. I will have to test the car seat fit during the test drive, before I pul the trigger.

I am 6'5" and did not have any issue with headroom in the driver seat. The seats sit considerably lower to accomodate taller drivers. I think the specs shows basically equal headroom in front vs. F30. I rarely have passangers in my DD. But if that happen, I need 4 doors and usable car seat.

[TheLiverBird]

I'd go GC, especially here in the UK as the 3 is pretty common, where as the GC has a bit of exclusivity at the moment.

[dhrcc]

I live in Germany and owned a GC. Owned the car for 4 months and only seen 3 other GC's the whole time. For a country that has a lot of BMW's as a dd, it feels good to hear someone saying that, "nice car, sir."

I had the same issue but ended up getting a GC for the looks and the hatch. Get the M if you end up with the GC. Lux line if the 3.

[DocB]

Originally Posted by joewalton

I think we're using the same word differently. "Exclusive" comes from BMW's own definition of the 4 Series:

The "4" doesn't just mark the start of a new cycle, it represents the zenith of a development curve. BMW has given the new model its own individual character and a standalone design and, in so doing, has turned "4" into segment shorthand for aesthetic and dynamic appeal. The latest addition to a nomenclature that sees BMW building on the fine tradition of its large BMW 6 Series and BMW 8 Series Coupes, the "4" stands for greater sportiness, greater exclusivity and even clearer differentiation from the BMW 3 Series range.

"Exclusivity" means there are 810,000 F30's on the road and there will only be 50,000 F36's on the road. "Exclusivity" has nothing to do with being a Bugatti or another exotic. It simply means "you're not just another person in a 3 Series"

The cars look quite different. That matters to some people who want more than EBII paint to differentiate themselves amongst all the 3 Series and 5 Series sedans on the road. Some want an entirely different car.

That's BMW's intent if you read the 4 Series press release.

Is this true? Are you saying that thus far 50,000 GCs have been sold or only 50,000 will be built. I suspect the former.

[joewalton]

Originally Posted by DocB

Is this true? Are you saying that thus far 50,000 GCs have been sold or only 50,000 will be built. I suspect the former.

Bubble chart is from a German magazine (article link here: http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...&postcount=119)

Actual 4 Series Sales 2014:

58,800 Coupes (12 months)
29,970 Convertibles (9 months)
23,300 Gran Coupes (3 months)

If you do the math, the Gran Coupe could have sold over 90,000 units had it been in for a full year. I estimate that right now there are probably 50,000 GC's in the wild, could be less.

Methinks BMW will be thrilled when after a full calendar year, with more on the road giving the car exposure, and with more F30 leases expiring and owners looking for something new, the Gran Coupe sells over 100,000 units. Especially since the 3 Series Sedan sells 270,000 units annually and the X3 sells 130,000 units annually.

Creating a new, premium car that sits between the 3 and the 5 and having it sell around 35% of the level of the industry-leading best seller does two things: First, it's a home run for BMW in retaining bored F30 customers. Second, with a sales ratio of 1:3 it ensures that the Gran Coupe will retain a modicum of exclusivity compared with the 3 Series.

[chrisny]

Originally Posted by joewalton

I think we're using the same word differently. "Exclusive" comes from BMW's own definition of the 4 Series:

The "4" doesn't just mark the start of a new cycle, it represents the zenith of a development curve. BMW has given the new model its own individual character and a standalone design and, in so doing, has turned "4" into segment shorthand for aesthetic and dynamic appeal. The latest addition to a nomenclature that sees BMW building on the fine tradition of its large BMW 6 Series and BMW 8 Series Coupes, the "4" stands for greater sportiness, greater exclusivity and even clearer differentiation from the BMW 3 Series range.

"Exclusivity" means there are 810,000 F30's on the road and there will only be 50,000 F36's on the road. "Exclusivity" has nothing to do with being a Bugatti or another exotic. It simply means "you're not just another person in a 3 Series"

The cars look quite different. That matters to some people who want more than EBII paint to differentiate themselves amongst all the 3 Series and 5 Series sedans on the road. Some want an entirely different car.

That's BMW's intent if you read the 4 Series press release.

Fair enough. I prefer to shape my own perception of reality rather than let it be dictated by marketing materials, but maybe that's just me

If if BMW is limiting production, then you are correct. Limited production could mean it's being kept exclusive, not everyone that wants one can have one. But if the smaller sales are due to smaller demand, that is not at all exclusive, just ask 3GT owners.

Again, I like the car a lot, may even be one of those you mentioned with expiring F30 leases to get one. But unless someone tells me I can't, or I have to wait a year, it is not exclusive no matter what their marketing packets say, its just not yet as popular and I think that is a good thing for those that like it, but doesn't make it exclusive.

I once ordered an S5 and had to wait 10 months for it because production was actually limited despite very high demand. This is how you create real exclusivity. Still far from a real exotic, but not everyone could have one, so it did have some level of exclusivity to it. Tell me BMW is limiting production and I will agree with you.

[joewalton]

Originally Posted by chrisny

Fair enough. I prefer to shape my own perception of reality rather than let it be dictated by marketing materials, but maybe that's just me

If if BMW is limiting production, then you are correct. Limited production could mean it's being kept exclusive, not everyone that wants one can have one. But if the smaller sales are due to smaller demand, that is not at all exclusive, just ask 3GT owners.

Again, I like the car a lot, may even be one of those you mentioned with expiring F30 leases to get one. But unless someone tells me I can't, or I have to wait a year, it is not exclusive no matter what their marketing packets say, its just not yet as popular and I think that is a good thing for those that like it, but doesn't make it exclusive.

I once ordered an S5 and had to wait 10 months for it because production was actually limited despite very high demand. This is how you create real exclusivity. Still far from a real exotic, but not everyone could have one, so it did have some level of exclusivity to it. Tell me BMW is limiting production and I will agree with you.

I don't think BMW is deliberately slowing production, but clearly they have fewer production lines for this new F36 than they do the F30 so does that count?

No matter who says it, BMW or someone else, if there are fewer F36's on the road than F30's it's less penetrated and less exposed, "exclusive" fits that definition too.

[chrisny]

Ok. I will concede that there is some level of exclusivity even just in possession, if not availability. I still have a hard time swallowing that given how many people possess a hideous GT, or an 82 pinto... I say this to mean demand has to greatly exceed supply to create exclusivity. But I suppose by the definitions of the word, possession alone can be applied if you really want it to...

My real issue with the 4GC is they missed the opportunity for it to truly sit between the 3 and 5. It does that in price only and I guess in aggressive styling as well. But it should have done that in size too. Half an inch wider and sculpted to be wider looking doesn't make it bigger than a 3, especially with the rear seat headroom sacrifices. If they made it just 3 or 4 inches longer, more like the 6 silhouette instead of cramping the hatch the way they did, I would not only be considering it to replace my 335, I would've traded the 3 in early to do it. As it stands, next time around, I want a car that is actually bigger, but wish I didn't have to get something so long like a 5 series to get it. Think about it, shouldn't something called a "Gran Coupe" at least be bigger than the regular coupe? Since when does "gran" just mean "more doors?"

[bahasad]

Originally Posted by Level3

I have a 328i and I like it. I like the way the GC looks as well. I don't know if I like it better. I think the 3 series looks more muscular and the GC looks a little sleeker. BUT, the way this guy above me spouts off about the GC all the time. The way he TRIES to make it superior. It makes me NOT like the GC. I don't know if that makes sense but this dudes attitude has completely turned me off of this car. That's my opinion as a fairly new member.

+ 1. Which is why I hate threads like this or anything related to the GC cause all it does is bring him out and ends into a shitshow.

The more I think about, the more I actually wish there was a separate sub forum for the GC owners so general threads won't be spammed by him.

Originally Posted by Ze4eMCe

This is what a GC should look like. Fantastic!

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

When I ordered my 335 on 12/31/2013 the GC wasn't available, so the choice was easy.
My personal opinion is the F30 M Sport is slightly more aesthetically pleasing, but the GC's hatch adds substantial cargo versatility. Interestingly, the GC actually has one smaller cargo dimension that is particularly important to me... That is the area in the "trunk" behind the rear wheel wells. The F30's pockets rear of the wheel wells is large enough for me to fit my cart-style golf bag side-to-side in the trunk. In the GC this configuration is not possible and requires I fold down half the seat. Not a factor for a lot of people, but for the amount of time I play golf, I appreciate this added option.

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

Originally Posted by bahasad

+ 1. Which is why I hate threads like this or anything related to the GC cause all it does is bring him out and ends into a shitshow.

The more I think about, the more I actually wish there was a separate sub forum for the GC owners so general threads won't be spammed by him.



This is what a GC should look like. Fantastic!

Thank you for the compliment.

I Love my GC but there is no doubt that it is different in many ways than F30 and F32, subtle but different. Ingress and egress in the GC I would argue is NOT as good as the other two for instance. If you really need 4 doors for utility, larger kids F30 is the way to go. And of course F32 being a two door makes it easier in and out. Just one of the differences. Again, buy what you love and what performs the best for your individual circumstance and checkbook. The GC works perfectly for me in every way (Would love another 40 hp/tourque but thats another story!

Also added wheel spacers to mine H&R 10mm front 13mm rear. Fills out the wheel wells better (that the F30/32 owners don't have to "worry" about)

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

In my experience, if you are any taller than about 5' 10", you will need to modify your posture to avoid having the headliner against your head while in the GC's back seat. I am 6' and this is a pic of my head solidly against the headliner.

[joewalton]

Originally Posted by chrisny

Ok. I will concede that there is some level of exclusivity even just in possession, if not availability. I still have a hard time swallowing that given how many people possess a hideous GT, or an 82 pinto... I say this to mean demand has to greatly exceed supply to create exclusivity. But I suppose by the definitions of the word, possession alone can be applied if you really want it to...

My real issue with the 4GC is they missed the opportunity for it to truly sit between the 3 and 5. It does that in price only and I guess in aggressive styling as well. But it should have done that in size too. Half an inch wider and sculpted to be wider looking doesn't make it bigger than a 3, especially with the rear seat headroom sacrifices. If they made it just 3 or 4 inches longer, more like the 6 silhouette instead of cramping the hatch the way they did, I would not only be considering it to replace my 335, I would've traded the 3 in early to do it. As it stands, next time around, I want a car that is actually bigger, but wish I didn't have to get something so long like a 5 series to get it. Think about it, shouldn't something called a "Gran Coupe" at least be bigger than the regular coupe? Since when does "gran" just mean "more doors?"

I see your point, but to go with the 5 chassis would make the car a 6 Gran Coupe and to go with the 3 long wheelbase chassis would make the car lose its sport connectivity to the 4 Coupe, both are no-go's from a manufacturing and marketing perspective.

I see three reasons why the Gran Coupe exists:

1. Take your best-seller and make it different enough to excite your loyal ownerbase and offer them a modicum of exclusivity from the gazillion 3 Series on the road at the very moment it goes CPO in significant numbers and F30 leases are up.

2. Satisfy the pent-up demand by ex-Coupe owners who want sexy Coupe styling but have families and can't live with two doors.

3. Position a new alternative perfectly on a cycle to allow perpetual leasers to bounce from the 3 Sedan to the 4 Gran Coupe, always have four-doors, and never be in a refreshed LCI, always be in a brand new car.

No matter how it came about, the world is a better place having it than not.

[chrisny]

A slightly longer 4GC wouldn't have disconnected it form the 4 coupe any more than the slightly longer 6GC from the 6 coupe. 3 cars the exact same size makes no sense to me and quite honestly, explains the sales numbers.

[joewalton]

Originally Posted by chrisny

A slightly longer 4GC wouldn't have disconnected it form the 4 coupe any more than the slightly longer 6GC from the 6 coupe. 3 cars the exact same size makes no sense to me and quite honestly, explains the sales numbers.

Ah, but having multiple cars the same size is the precise reason BMW continues its dominance in the segment. Sales of the Gran Coupe are on track to eclipse the Coupe by years end, another four-door option is just what the doctor ordered.

Using myself as an example, the 7 and 5 are too big and the 2 is too small. The 3 is just right. And judging by BMWs sales numbers, most customers agree. The issue arises that if a customer is not motivated to purchase by getting a larger or smaller BMW, they wind up in the same 3 Series over and over again. Great cars, but after a while this gets pretty boring and not only that, with millions of others buying the same car and CPO's flooding the roads there is a saturation that renders uniqueness and exclusivity impossible.

With the 4 Gran Coupe it's not about the size; it's about the style. From reading your posts it appears that in order for the GC to meet your expectations it would've had to have been slightly larger. For the rest of us the exact opposite is the case. We want something just a little sharper, a little sportier, a little lower, a little meaner, and a little more unique and we are willing to sacrifice some passenger comfort in order to get it.