[Blackcross]

I've taken delivery of a 2014 M235 and can say exactly what I want. I'll even be realistic and not ask for the moon.

I'm coming from two cars: a 2003 e46 325xi and a 1992 Ferrari 348. I've also owned and tracked an e46 M3. The Ferrari had manual steering with no assist what so ever.

The steering in the m235 is variable boost and variable turning rate.

The steering is razor sharp and has no dead spots or delay of any kind.

IMO and that is all I can talk to, the boost is way way too high for my preference. There is zero road feel. In the parking lot, I can turn the wheel with my pinkie finger.

The difference in "weighting" (boost) varies with speed and with the suspension setting (Eco, comfort, sport and sport plus).

At speed, in sport, the steering is still way to light (over boosted). In the parking lot and less than 20 km per hour, it is retardely over boosted: zero effort.

Never mind the fact that there is zero feedback, I want the boost at all levels to be cut by 75%. I am sad that there is no feedback (no cracks no tram lining, no ruts in the road no loss of traction - nothing is felt at all), but can accept it (I have no choice). I'd like the steering ratio acceleration dropped by about 15%.

I have read that the new m3/m4 have zero boost on the unwind. Do not know if that will provide any sort of feedback.

So to recap: the m235 has incredibly precise steering, zero feedback and is over boosted. The over boosted is my opinion and I would like to be able to change the programming to reduce the boost.

[Brenanj1]

I took mine to dealer and they put more tension load into my steering. Took out some vibration and gave me the BMW cornering feel of my old stiffened E46

[Golden Arrow]

Originally Posted by Elk

This is the correct question. I only wish I could answer it. Your analysis is dead-on as to the mechanics.

My guess is it is a marketing decision. BMW has become a mainstream car and, thus, caters to its market. It is the same unfortunate reason the F30 now has massive cupholders.

The cup holders, while better than they used to be, still suck. After we solve the EPS problem, let's get on engineering tweaks to the cup holders.

[smithf80]

Originally Posted by Brenanj1

I took mine to dealer and they put more tension load into my steering. Took out some vibration and gave me the BMW cornering feel of my old stiffened E46

What do you mean "put more tension load into my steering"

Seriously, what did they do.

[Brenanj1]

Originally Posted by smithf32

What do you mean "put more tension load into my steering"

Seriously, what did they do.

I guess the shop foreman was the only one who knew how, but they were able to add more tension to the rack. I obviously didn't do it myself but it is definitely twice as stiff as stock.

[rentien]

I just want comfort mode to feel the same as sport. Shouldn't that be easy enough? No need to use new maps...

[hans007]

so my F30 is in the body shop because a valet at work was backing it out, and damaged the front bumper (don't feel bad for me, my front bumper is being replaced with a brand new one with all new paint, when it previously had scrapes all over it... its not the worst thing ever).



that said.... i obviously usually drive my F30. anyway i get a rental at enterprise... a bright red VW beetle 2014 1.8t.

first thing that stands out is.... this VW has better steering feel than my bmw, which makes me sad. (it has EPS also, but just tuned well... i mean effectively its an A3 1.8T fwd on the mqb architecture).

also would say the beetle's non runflat were a lot more compliant. so yeah... the fact a VW beetle has a few things that are noticeably better than my much more expensive BMW is not cool

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by hans007

so my F30 is in the body shop because a valet at work was backing it out, and damaged the front bumper (don't feel bad for me, my front bumper is being replaced with a brand new one with all new paint, when it previously had scrapes all over it... its not the worst thing ever).



that said.... i obviously usually drive my F30. anyway i get a rental at enterprise... a bright red VW beetle 2014 1.8t.

first thing that stands out is.... this VW has better steering feel than my bmw, which makes me sad. (it has EPS also, but just tuned well... i mean effectively its an A3 1.8T fwd on the mqb architecture).

also would say the beetle's non runflat were a lot more compliant. so yeah... the fact a VW beetle has a few things that are noticeably better than my much more expensive BMW is not cool

Think what you and all the guys from this now 3 year old thread were feeling was the run flat effect; it's horrible!

This is why if you really read through this thread, the majority of us have taken off the run flats in favor of standard rubber.

the steering feel in my F32 feels great when in sport mode through the ///M steering wheel since I took off those horrible tires.

[613Bimmer]

Originally Posted by Brenanj1

I guess the shop foreman was the only one who knew how, but they were able to add more tension to the rack. I obviously didn't do it myself but it is definitely twice as stiff as stock.

Would you mind asking how? This could save a good deal of headaches for people on this forum or, potentially, a lot of F3x owners.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Think what you and all the guys from this now 3 year old thread were feeling was the run flat effect; it's horrible!

This is why if you really read through this thread, the majority of us have taken off the run flats in favor of standard rubber.

the steering feel in my F32 feels great when in sport mode through the ///M steering wheel since I took off those horrible tires.

i'm sure some of it is the runflats, but i'd have to say the steering is probably also overboosted. ive got 27k or so miles on my set so i'll be replacing them with normal tires soon so i guess i'll see.

the ride honestly is just brutally stiff at this point, seems like the runflats get worse with time

[Thumper333]

Originally Posted by hans007

the ride honestly is just brutally stiff at this point, seems like the runflats get worse with time

That's weird, I was just thinking they got a bit better. I remember when we first got it how harsh some of the pavement cracks and bumps were around our town. Now they are harsh but no longer sounds like the Hulk is raping my undercarriage.

And I drive in Sport suspension settings almost exclusively and have the Shockware upgrade. LOL

I really need to get them swapped out

[Blackcross]

I asked the dealer what could be done and they said nothing could be done. Of course this means nothing. It used to be that this dealer had a real old-school master mechanic who tinkered and built race cars. But not anymore; they are all just trained by BMW and that is that.

Some alternative options I've done that have weighted up the steering: removed the toe from the front alignment, put 10mm spacers on the front, increased the fronts to 235 and lowered the tire pressure to 30 psi.

All told, the steering is better (heavier) and reacts better (feedback) to undulations and road surface. A lot of the little stuff is still damped right out of the system. My preference is extreme feedback: I want to feel the sidewalls bending. I want to feel the tires getting pulled around by cracks in the road.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Blackcross

I asked the dealer what could be done and they said nothing could be done. Of course this means nothing. It used to be that this dealer had a real old-school master mechanic who tinkered and built race cars. But not anymore; they are all just trained by BMW and that is that.

Some alternative options I've done that have weighted up the steering: removed the toe from the front alignment, put 10mm spacers on the front, increased the fronts to 235 and lowered the tire pressure to 30 psi.

All told, the steering is better (heavier) and reacts better (feedback) to undulations and road surface. A lot of the little stuff is still damped right out of the system. My preference is extreme feedback: I want to feel the sidewalls bending. I want to feel the tires getting pulled around by cracks in the road.

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately in these days of CAFE and the resulting EPS, the days of real feedback are gone. It seems that Cadillac tunes their EPS very well as does Mazda and of course Porsche. Jaguar is getting good reviews for their steering feel in the XE.

But for really good feedback as you describe, I'm afraid we are looking at used cars.

[Leo_328i]

I've had many BMWs over the years but actually stopped considering the latest cars for a variety of reasons.

By far, the single greatest reason is the change in steering feel. To me, the best BMWs I've experienced for steering feel are my Z4 M Roadster, E39 530i and E90.

I absolutely love the tactility and feedback you get with these old steering systems, they are also extremely precise.

To me, its natural to feel the texture of the road in the wheel, if the road surface is coarse, I want to feel that in my hands.

I test drove an M135i last year and an M4 when they launched and they both sucked - I couldn't place the car naturally, it was quite concerning.

You really cannot feel the road in your hands with these cars - its quite disconnected, and dare I say it, very Audi-like.

[Danddd]

Originally Posted by Leo_328i

- I couldn't place the car naturally, it was quite concerning.

You really cannot feel the road in your hands with these cars - its quite disconnected, and dare I say it, very Audi-like.

Carving curves is no longer in these cars. My E91 was great, the F31 is just horrible. Yet you can tell the F31 may have more capability, but you don't feel it. Definitely last BMW.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Danddd

Carving curves is no longer in these cars. My E91 was great, the F31 is just horrible. Yet you can tell the F31 may have more capability, but you don't feel it. Definitely last BMW.

Was your E91 xDrive? The F31 is only available in xDrive versions and with the poorest suspension setup. The only way to make one handle precisely is to get the dynamic handling package.

As far as this being your last BMW, have you checked the handling of the competition? Jaguar, Cadillac and Alfa are doing a good job in this segment but they have their own flaws like either poor interiors and coarse engines (Cadillac) or unknown reliability (Jag and Alfa). If I was in this market again, I think I'd look at the Guilia but hope it has a good warranty.

[bimmer456]

I only know about how it make the steering heavier by dialing back the assist in sport mode. It seems to do this less on the G30 that I test drove probably because most folks don't like the heavier steering.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Was your E91 xDrive? The F31 is only available in xDrive versions and with the poorest suspension setup. The only way to make one handle precisely is to get the dynamic handling package.

As far as this being your last BMW, have you checked the handling of the competition? Jaguar, Cadillac and Alfa are doing a good job in this segment but they have their own flaws like either poor interiors and coarse engines (Cadillac) or unknown reliability (Jag and Alfa). If I was in this market again, I think I'd look at the Guilia but hope it has a good warranty.

The steering "feel" and "feedback" are every so slightly improved with the LCI, as I compared my 2012 335i Msport w/variable steering to my current 2016 340I Msport. Overall though the LCI is quite marginal in improving steering feel. As for being a "corner carver", my 335i and 340i are quite up to it as they carve a corner quite nicely and precisely, it's just that there isn't the type of feel and feedback that I had in my previous 2003 325i sport and even my 2009 235i.

The other issue with the F30 sport and adaptive damper sport suspension is that it's still under-sprung and over-damped in BMW's effort to try and be all things for all owners. They want even the sport/Msport sport suspensions to have a "soft" cruising ride, while also giving some firmer control when driving harder on twisty roads. The end result is an half-assed job on both ends. The spring rate is all wrong for level of damping that the adaptive dampers can give in "sport" mode. The rear end can is easily upset on mid-corner bumps, and at the same time the rear will wallow and even sway a bit coming out of a high speed sharper corner. The spring rates are just too soft, and then BMW tries to compensate with overly aggressive damping, which creates that awkward mismatch that twisty road drivers hate.

I'm HOPING really hoping that BMW got the loud and hard message that they can't make every 3 series variant be all things for all people.
The next 3 series, and all next gen BMW's, need to design and tune each variant for the type of driving a particular driver wants. And that can NOT be done with artificial "driver modes". Why? Because a good "sport" suspension tune requires the proper suspension mounting points, proper spring rates, ride height, sway bars, and dampers, and then the dampers can still be "adaptive".

BMW should stop trying to make a "sport" or "Msport" variant have a soft and cushy cruising highway ride. Drivers like me, who want that firmer and tighter feel and response don't mind firmer highway ride, but we expect the handling to be as controlled as possible. That requires a suspension, parts and tuning, to be optimized mechanically FIRST, and then add some adaptive ability if possible, rather than trying to tune everything through electronic tuning and faking "feel".

I expect a "sport/Msport" to be distinctly between a base or luxury BMW and an M car, rather than some firmer dampers and slightly firmer springs that mimic a "sport" suspension. BMW used to know how to do this, and their steering feel and sport suspension tuning was considered "magical" and excelling at the "dark art" of suspension tuning. BMW knew how to make their sport sedan behave, perform, and feel as if it were more sports-car and less commuter sedan. But, a lot of non BMW people bitched and moaned that BMW's steering was "too heavy" and required "too much" effort to turn, along with being "too firm" on bumps when cruising at highway speeds.
So, BMW listened to them and choose to tune their cars in order to bring more buyers to BMW. The F30 succeeded in doing that, but it became the car that most reviewers and BMW driving fans wanted to love, but couldn't.
They, we, knew there was something not right and we then bitched and moaned.

BMW can correct their mistake. Instead of wasting all the time and effort into creating more and more models to fill in niches that no one was complaining about, BMW needs to now use those niches to give distinction between them.
For example, they created the silly named " Gran Coupe", which is simply a fancier, more luxury focused version of an already existing model, such as the 4 series Gran Coupe that is a 4 door sedan based on the 3 series chassis, but has a fancier body and more luxurious interior.

Did anyone outside of BMW management ask for that?
Not that I recall. What we did and are asking for is a return to the greatness that made BMW's and in particular the 3 series THE SPORT SEDAN for drivers who want the added space of a 4 door sedan and 2 door coupe, but with the driving performance and feel more like a sports car.
That ended with the E90.
I hope the G20 brings back what we loved and want and expect BMW's to be.
The rivals and competition have shown that other manufacturers succeed in an area that BMW abandoned after the E90. BMW needs to reoccupy that space and gives us a PROPER 3 series, and then improve the other series as well. BMW's future is in it's recent past. They need to find that lost family recipe and clean off the cobwebs and bring that into the future of today and tomorrow.

[Danddd]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Was your E91 xDrive? The F31 is only available in xDrive versions and with the poorest suspension setup. The only way to make one handle precisely is to get the dynamic handling package.

As far as this being your last BMW, have you checked the handling of the competition? Jaguar, Cadillac and Alfa are doing a good job in this segment but they have their own flaws like either poor interiors and coarse engines (Cadillac) or unknown reliability (Jag and Alfa). If I was in this market again, I think I'd look at the Guilia but hope it has a good warranty.

Yep an X Drive with sport package (did have beefi,er brakes). Still stellar steering. In our family, I have sports hauler, bikes, kayaks and the like. My friends call it the Bimmer Outback. So I stay with wagons to get the car feel with handling and capacity, so choices are limited. 3er in my evaluation is the best wagon in a small market. Still miss the steering in the F31. I was really hoping there'd be a aftermarket fix.

[Leo_328i]

Originally Posted by Blackcross

I've taken delivery of a 2014 M235 and can say exactly what I want. I'll even be realistic and not ask for the moon.

I'm coming from two cars: a 2003 e46 325xi and a 1992 Ferrari 348. I've also owned and tracked an e46 M3. The Ferrari had manual steering with no assist what so ever.

The steering in the m235 is variable boost and variable turning rate.

The steering is razor sharp and has no dead spots or delay of any kind.

IMO and that is all I can talk to, the boost is way way too high for my preference. There is zero road feel. In the parking lot, I can turn the wheel with my pinkie finger.

The difference in "weighting" (boost) varies with speed and with the suspension setting (Eco, comfort, sport and sport plus).

At speed, in sport, the steering is still way to light (over boosted). In the parking lot and less than 20 km per hour, it is retardely over boosted: zero effort.

Never mind the fact that there is zero feedback, I want the boost at all levels to be cut by 75%. I am sad that there is no feedback (no cracks no tram lining, no ruts in the road no loss of traction - nothing is felt at all), but can accept it (I have no choice). I'd like the steering ratio acceleration dropped by about 15%.

I have read that the new m3/m4 have zero boost on the unwind. Do not know if that will provide any sort of feedback.

So to recap: the m235 has incredibly precise steering, zero feedback and is over boosted. The over boosted is my opinion and I would like to be able to change the programming to reduce the boost.

As a 2006 Z4 M and E36 owner, I completely share your sentiments.

I drove an LCI M135i (just before the M140 changeover) and found exactly the same thing, the steering precision is not the issue - its actually quite good.

The lack of sensation through the wheel leaves me extremely cold. It is far too light and I can't feel the texture of the road underneath me through the wheel. It feels fake and it hurts my confidence and my enthusiasm to push the car.

From my other vehicle experience, this has less to do with the fact that its EPS (and not hydraulic) and more to do with the fact that the tuning is poorly calibrated.

If you ever get a chance to drive a VF2 Commodre SS Redline (Chevy SS in the USA), the electric steering in that is a DELIGHT. It actually feels like an old BMW in a really good way. I have an almost telepathic idea of what the front wheels are doing which is quite a feat in such a big and heavy car with fat tyres.

I really wish BMW would make an affordable old-school car. I want my beautiful steering feel, light weight, naturally aspirated inline-6 and manual gearbox. That is the core essence of what BMW used to (and should) be.

[anotheran]

Originally Posted by Leo_328i

I really wish BMW would make an affordable old-school car. I want my beautiful steering feel, light weight, naturally aspirated inline-6 and manual gearbox. That is the core essence of what BMW used to (and should) be.

If BMW just rehashed the E90 328i it would be passed over as an also-ran. It doesn't compete well with the N20 on paper and "enthusiasts" would still go for the turbocharged I6s cuz it has more hp and torque

I'd prefer more feel (same as you) but heavier steering

[racingtiger03]

I didn't read through the ENTIRE thread, but IMO, if we could just get rid of that dead off balance feeling in the first 1-2% of the wheel or switching from on center to just off-center, that would be excellent, as everywhere else I feel the steering behaves great. Switchbacks or dead neutral to left/right hander... no, just no. I hate it.