[mcalc55]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

I completely agree with you with everything u said about the e46 m3.
I would get it as a second or third car though.

Well I only have enough funds for 1 car, not to mention one spot in my parking deck. That being said, i only drive about 6-8k a year so not much. Do you guys suggest it as a second or third car simply cause it's somewhat fatiguing to drive? I know even in my f30 with the tune, sport+ can be considered 'harsh' to some, I'd imagine that the m3 is only that x10.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Keep in mind the e46 will be give u lot of maintenance headache in the future.
Older technology
No Turbo
and by today's standard its not considered a very fast car anymore.

Not necessarily a bad thing...

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by bimmerjph

Not necessarily a bad thing...

I never said its a bad thing.
Im a big fan of the e46 M3, im just stating that the 2 cars are completely different in terms of feel and power delivery.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

I never said its a bad thing.
Im a big fan of the e46 M3, im just stating that the 2 cars are completely different in terms of feel and power delivery.

Fair enough, but you did list in a list of negatives so was reasonable to assume you thought it was a negative.

[KGB_123_99]

I would opt for a new car if funds allow it. A car that has been around for 10+ years will have rubber seals and gaskets deteriorating everywhere. In fact, I've always been skeptical of old BMWs with low mileage. These cars are meant to be driven and the more they sit the faster they age.

For example, I can almost guarantee that if you leave an 8 year old BMW sitting in the garage for 3-4 months it will have a leak from the oil filter housing gasket when you start it again.

[drob23]

I'm currently trying to find an e46 for a track/weekend car. Keep in mind those cars have trouble with rear subframe mount cracking, vanos needs maintenance, stay far away from the smg, you'll want zcp. Cooling system can go. I'd figure on a nice 20k e46, you should probably expect about 1.5-2k of maintenance annually, which will skyrocket if you don't know how to wrench. Kind of the ultimate enthusiasts vehicle imo, especially if you take it to a track.

[mcalc55]

Originally Posted by drob23

I'm currently trying to find an e46 for a track/weekend car. Keep in mind those cars have trouble with rear subframe mount cracking, vanos needs maintenance, stay far away from the smg, you'll want zcp. Cooling system can go. I'd figure on a nice 20k e46, you should probably expect about 1.5-2k of maintenance annually, which will skyrocket if you don't know how to wrench. Kind of the ultimate enthusiasts vehicle imo, especially if you take it to a track.

So I can't wrench and I have a perfectly awesome f30 Msport. I guess I'm just craving a real M car. It sounds like given the year I'm just going to walk into more trouble than the difference between my f30 and that is worth

[nachob]

Ok, I have a 2003 330i ZHP, very similar to your M3 except for the motor. Here is what you need to be prepared for.

The cooling system will fail regardless of miles. It gets brittle. If the current owner hasn't done it, you should replace the radiator, expansion tank, hoses, thermostat, water pump with a new BEHR or OEM items. I did it on my previous E46 using the OEM parts or even dealer parts if you wish. I had a trusted independent do it.

You will have to adjust the valves every 15K miles.

Make sure the M3 was inspected by BMW for the subframe cracking recall

There are couple of valves that get old with age regardless of miles but you drive low miles and the car will be rewarding.

Yes, a new car always makes a better daily driver from the reliability perspective but the E46 is pretty well built as long as it was taken care of. It is also very desirable car especially as all the new cars are turbo charged, many miss the visceral sound and throttle response of NA motors.

Make sure you change the and trans oil regularly too.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by snowghost

I wouldn't touch that M3. The first few years had defective engines that blew up. I thought I was safe with a 2006 M3 but the S54 VANOS blew up at 41k miles and 3 weeks out of warranty. That is a separate issue from the early E46 M3 engines being defective. So if you consider a late one, you need to make sure the nuts on the VANOS have a fix to not come loose.

IIRC a change was made in 2003.5 model. But you can find all kinds of info on the M3 boards about the early ones blowing up.

You're talking about the con-rod bearings? I thought there was recall on all early models, where they replaced them. I wouldn't be worried about this issue, it was a free recall, so no reason for a previous owner not to get the work done (imagine if BMW said, "so we got a fix for n55 limp mode, who wants it?"). You can just call a BMW dealer and give them the VIN, they'll be able to tell if it needed the work done and if in fact it was done (you'd be outside of the recall statute of limitations).

Regarding engine VANOS issues, you'll need to have the valves re-shimmed every 20-50k miles, depending on how hard you drive it. A new VANOS unit for the S54 will run you 2.5k at the dealer, maybe you could get it done for 1.5-2k at an independent using "Dr. Vanos" (whatever the hell that is, heard the e46 guys talking all about it at the BMW event I went to). Inspection II is a major maintenance milestone. Oil changes need to be frequent and always use the correct oil.

The subframe mount cracking is the biggest issue with the e46 M3, especially if the car is driven hard. Apparently it's not an if, it's a when. All solutions yield potential new issues down the road, such as rusting due to welds etc.

I personally wouldn't get this car if you don't know how to at the *very* least do your own maintenance and minor replacements. Otherwise you will get *killed* at the dealership with all the little bushing replacements and other odd ends that are $200 part jobs that cost $800 at the stealership. Even with a "pristine" low mileage/high priced/single owner car, you're still getting into a car that should be worth about 15k if it was driven normally. You won't have a turn key race car unless you really know your shit.

The other option which I've been considering is just getting an e36 M3 weekend/track car, they're really light and can be found pretty cheap (maybe 7k for ~120k miles, decent shape), only caveat is NA got stuck with the POS de-tuned S50/S52, which are fine motors for driving around town, but lack all of the red-line HP that ///M engines are legendary for. Definitely the black sheep of the M3 family.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Agreed, you need to drive one. I would only buy one I could evaluate up close in person, so if you can't make a trip to New Jersey I wouldn't consider that one, though it does look like a gem.

This decision is kind of like deciding to buy a really old house, because you love the character of houses that age. If your love is strong enough you may really enjoy it even though the upkeep is significant. It all boils down to how much satisfaction the classic character gives you.

I'm also looking into buying a house (lol this thread hits on all accounts ) and I'm not sure I buy the analogy. I could see it if you are talking about old classic cars, and you just enjoy a convertible, 3 spd, cruising etc. But the e46 is a way more visceral experience. I can guarantee you that if you took both the m3 and 328i out to a race track, it wouldn't even be debatable which car you walk away from. Problem is of course he wants this for a daily driver, where passion has to be balanced with practicality. BMW's hit pretty strong in both regards, but clearly this would be a walk into car problems, maintenance, stranded on side of road...just the kind of crap people with new cars can't be bothered with.

Originally Posted by nachob

Bunk, you will never experience a car like the E46 M3 in the future. It is manly, throaty, stiff and sounds visceral and has visceral throttle response. It has a real diff and while it will take more maintenance, it is a destination.
What this poster is saying is like don't backpack around Europe, climb mount everest, K2, just buy a nice condo in Orlando and watch others do it in comfy surround sound. Every car in the future will be digitized, soft, electric automatic. You have an opportunity to get a clean E46 M3 with a screaming NA inline 6 and real manual transmission. It's time to do a plumbing check my friend, pull out the belt and look down there and make sure you still have the right plumbing. You will always be able to get digitized engine sound, no temp gauge, dynamic suspensions, idrive displays, comfort access, comfort this comfort that going forward. If you find you don't have the right plumbing , IM me with details on this clean M3...please.

Agreed, but question is really if one needs that out of their daily, my take (after making my daily wayyyy too fast) is get a reasonable daily, but then have a screamer for the weekend/track days. At this point, $$ enters the equation obviously. And you don't need a pristine M3 to enjoy your weekend/track events, hence why I'm looking more for the enthusiast owned (and driven) e46 right around the 12k price point. I'm fine with some bad paint and interior, but need to know the car was maintained and no accidents/frame damage. Oh, and no SMG lol

Originally Posted by ft1330

I would probably rather go for a used Cayman S. Those are cheap used. They are mid-engined so for me that's more of a sports car than even an M3. As far as maintenance cost it will be high, no doubt, just like the M3 tho.

Not sure what price point you can start to talk Porsche. But I can see that being a more special drivers car, but it would still be incredible to get into that S54, with proper setup I'm sure it would be hard to find a faster hpde car for the price.

[S4NoMore]

I looked at E46 M3s as well. Since I have an E30 it doesn't make much sense for me. If it's your only car and you don't do more than 10k miles/yr I could see replacing an F30 with it.

The quality is good but hasn't stood the test of time so well. Better than E36 but not better than E30 - due mainly to additional technology and luxury features. One thing sticks in my mind, the creaky door armrest. Yes it can be fixed, but my old E30 is rock solid with zero creaks and it's on stiff coilovers. Plenty of plastic in the E46.

I disagree on needing ZCP, especially if it's your only car. I'd rather have the multifunction steering wheel with durable leather and put ZCP wheels on later.

I also disagree that it's "not fast" by today's standards. 0-60 in 4.8 seconds and low 13s in the 1/4-mile are fast numbers. This is a car that will, realistically, keep up with F30 335s and brand new S4s (when equipped with 6MT).

[mcalc55]

Originally Posted by S4NoMore

I looked at E46 M3s as well. Since I have an E30 it doesn't make much sense for me. If it's your only car and you don't do more than 10k miles/yr I could see replacing an F30 with it.

The quality is good but hasn't stood the test of time so well. Better than E36 but not better than E30 - due mainly to additional technology and luxury features. One thing sticks in my mind, the creaky door armrest. Yes it can be fixed, but my old E30 is rock solid with zero creaks and it's on stiff coilovers. Plenty of plastic in the E46.

I disagree on needing ZCP, especially if it's your only car. I'd rather have the multifunction steering wheel with durable leather and put ZCP wheels on later.

I also disagree that it's "not fast" by today's standards. 0-60 in 4.8 seconds and low 13s in the 1/4-mile are fast numbers. This is a car that will, realistically, keep up with F30 335s and brand new S4s (when equipped with 6MT).

Looks like you have an n20 F30...thoughts between the two? That's essentially what I would be moving from (although it's a BMS Stage 1 tuned n20). I would really miss the ipod adapter/bluetooth features although they can be retrofitted and the navigation isn't as good and lacks the heads up display which I also love...it just sounds like I may be trading alot away unless i could keep it as a second car (which I really can't right now)

[S4NoMore]

Originally Posted by mcalc55

Looks like you have an n20 F30...thoughts between the two? That's essentially what I would be moving from (although it's a BMS Stage 1 tuned n20). I would really miss the ipod adapter/bluetooth features although they can be retrofitted and the navigation isn't as good and lacks the heads up display which I also love...it just sounds like I may be trading alot away unless i could keep it as a second car (which I really can't right now)

Very very different. I think you should go drive it or a similar car if possible.

I love a fast car, but although I'm still young I don't find myself willing to sacrifice the comfort. I am amazed by my stock N20, and I gotta believe the stage 1 power is great. But, I use my F30 in such a way that comfort takes priority. I have the E30 for when the mood to race around in a 6-cyl touring car strikes me. The thing to note in my mind is that while a very fast car, the S54 isn't very torquey, and it's not very alive when you're just driving around town below 3-4k rpm. It's good, but not great. It won't feel much different than the N20 (and perhaps it'll feel slower) until you really open it up.

I'm 9+ months out of the E46 market, but here's what I'd suggest. If this is the perfect color combination for you with the right options and the car really checks out, $23.5 seems like a really great opportunity. Enthusiast auto group is driving prices sky high, and the number of clean 6MT examples is dropping.

Your F30 has likely depreciated a fair amount, maybe not a ton but it's on a slippery slope. The E46 M3 is not. Given that you don't do a lot of miles and it's your only car, I would lean towards the E46. Retrofit the iPod connectivity and I think you'll be just fine without HUD and a hi-res screen. Pay it off then go get a modern BMW if/when the need arises.

But first, you need to drive one.

[mcalc55]

Originally Posted by S4NoMore

Very very different. I think you should go drive it or a similar car if possible.

I love a fast car, but although I'm still young I don't find myself willing to sacrifice the comfort. I am amazed by my stock N20, and I gotta believe the stage 1 power is great. But, I use my F30 in such a way that comfort takes priority. I have the E30 for when the mood to race around in a 6-cyl touring car strikes me. The thing to note in my mind is that while a very fast car, the S54 isn't very torquey, and it's not very alive when you're just driving around town below 3-4k rpm. It's good, but not great. It won't feel much different than the N20 (and perhaps it'll feel slower) until you really open it up.

I'm 9+ months out of the E46 market, but here's what I'd suggest. If this is the perfect color combination for you with the right options and the car really checks out, $23.5 seems like a really great opportunity. Enthusiast auto group is driving prices sky high, and the number of clean 6MT examples is dropping.

Your F30 has likely depreciated a fair amount, maybe not a ton but it's on a slippery slope. The E46 M3 is not. Given that you don't do a lot of miles and it's your only car, I would lean towards the E46. Retrofit the iPod connectivity and I think you'll be just fine without HUD and a hi-res screen. Pay it off then go get a modern BMW if/when the need arises.

But first, you need to drive one.

So I have an n20 f30. Paying $420/mo for an msport x drive with just MSDS down. It would go fast through a transfer. I drove the smg e46 yesterday and it was a POS in first and second. They didn't have a stick to drive and I have minimal experience driving one anyway so id really be killing their clutch if they did. That being said I loved the drive. It really was so raw and the engine note is fantastic but to hear it you really need to rev it which usually means speeding oh well

I may see if I can get agreement at $20k which may be a stretch and then have both for a bit and get rid of the f30 if things go well with the 46 otherwise probably just keep the 46 for the thrills

[ClubsportJunkie]

Having owned both an E46, and now a F32, I highly recommend going with a F3X.

I have also owned a '03 CL600 Brabus (yes it was a Brabus), and I know for a fact that as a DD that my F32 435i is a better car than my E46 and Brabus. Sure my F32 isn't as analog and as small as my E46. However, on a day to day basis my F32 rides like my Brabus on the comfort side but is somewhere between the Brabus and E46 on handling. As for the power the Brabus could not get the power to the ground very effectively (Because: Torque!), and being N/A in the E46 could not get up to speed unless you were high in the RPM's. Turbo's are amazing with power delivery! The one downside is that I miss is the sensation of speed (rev'ing through the gears and having a loud exhaust...I don't have a exhaust on the F32, but Eisemann sounds amazing!), and as a result to my N/A and slow throttle, I was not getting anywhere fast.

If you want a fun car that can be on the track or in the canyons get a miata, S2000, or a z4 (M?) and keep the F3X as a DD.

Also I highly recommend the F32 over the F30 unless you have people in your car consistently, because the back seats in the F32 can fit me in the back comfortably (I'm 6'1").

As for a F22 I have only driven a m235i, but wasn't impressed with the comfort in it. If I would want something similar to the F22, I would have gone back to the E46 and saved a lot of money.

[mcalc55]

Originally Posted by DinanEX

Having owned both an E46, and now a F32, I highly recommend going with a F3X.

I have also owned a '03 CL600 Brabus (yes it was a Brabus), and I know for a fact that as a DD that my F32 435i is a better car than my E46 and Brabus. Sure my F32 isn't as analog and as small as my E46. However, on a day to day basis my F32 rides like my Brabus on the comfort side but is somewhere between the Brabus and E46 on handling. As for the power the Brabus could not get the power to the ground very effectively (Because: Torque!), and being N/A in the E46 could not get up to speed unless you were high in the RPM's. Turbo's are amazing with power delivery! The one downside is that I miss is the sensation of speed (rev'ing through the gears and having a loud exhaust...I don't have a exhaust on the F32, but Eisemann sounds amazing!), and as a result to my N/A and slow throttle, I was not getting anywhere fast.

If you want a fun car that can be on the track or in the canyons get a miata, S2000, or a z4 (M?) and keep the F3X as a DD.

Also I highly recommend the F32 over the F30 unless you have people in your car consistently, because the back seats in the F32 can fit me in the back comfortably (I'm 6'1").

As for a F22 I have only driven a m235i, but wasn't impressed with the comfort in it. If I would want something similar to the F22, I would have gone back to the E46 and saved a lot of money.

Yeah that's pretty much exactly how I feel. The sense of speed was exhilarating and addictive but I'm sure over time i would prefer to save that sense of speed for a second car. As a DD some of the magic might be lost. Thanks everyone for the input!