[martsro]

Originally Posted by ROBNYC

RacingPowerSports.com they're in TX too mention "RobNyc referred you"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RACECHIP-ULT...c91d4e&vxp=mtr

That's how I found them on ebay for $714, then they were able to PriceMatch the competitor DTMHaus

Awesome. Thanks!

[K320]

Originally Posted by martsro

Awesome. Thanks!

You will like it.

[Stubok]

Really interested in RaceChips. Wonder how it compares to Dinan. Dinan give quite a lot of information on how they not only increase boost, but they adjust timing and fuel amongst other things. While most others just add boost and rely on the cars engine ECU to work out the other adjustments (which can cause flat spots). Maybe I'm missing something and all these chips do that too, but only Dinan says so.

I really like that RC also uses OEM style connectors and there is no splicing.

Almost $1k less than Dinan. That's huge. I get that the Dinan has "warranty", and I would love that piece of mind, but man that's a lot of coin that could be spent on coil overs, or a better FMIC & charge pipes, or the MP BBK.

Really Wonder how this unit stacks up against the others from a technology standpoint as well as a performance standpoint.

[K320]

Dinan is a warranty secured tune.
RC is a safe tune box made in germany.
It is a matter of what gives you peace of mind.

[Stubok]

Originally Posted by Kendroz

Dinan is a warranty secured tune.
RC is a safe tune box made in germany.
It is a matter of what gives you peace of mind.

pretty much what I said.

What I'm trying to understand is how they each physically work (obviously I don't need secrets to be divulged but would like the high level points) and what makes them different from an operational standpoint.

Is there anyone that can give a more technical breakdown of how they work and are different?

[opasha]

Originally Posted by Stubok

pretty much what I said.

What I'm trying to understand is how they each physically work (obviously I don't need secrets to be divulged but would like the high level points) and what makes them different from an operational standpoint.

Is there anyone that can give a more technical breakdown of how they work and are different?

You need to PM member 42pilot on this. He has experience with both and can give you the technical break down.

[Stubok]

Many thanks. will do.

[FSociety]

Originally Posted by Stubok

Many thanks. will do.

share with us the answers

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Stubok

What I'm trying to understand is how they each physically work (obviously I don't need secrets to be divulged but would like the high level points) and what makes them different from an operational standpoint.

Is there anyone that can give a more technical breakdown of how they work and are different?

Race chips, DTMHaus, et. al. are just more expensive versions of the BMS Stage1. They don't have CAN bus access and thus are much more limited in the scope of tuning they can do. They won't be able to do anything a JB4 can do for example. No gear dependent boost control, no AFR & knock monitoring, no map switching in dash, no over temperature
or cold oil protection, etc.

Dinan is more like a JB4 in terms of the scope of tuning but they've chosen to keep power levels close to BMS Stage1 levels, since they are paying for any subsequent repairs.

Mike

[Stubok]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Race chips, DTMHaus, et. al. are just more expensive versions of the BMS Stage1. They don't have CAN bus access and thus are much more limited in the scope of tuning they can do. They won't be able to do anything a JB4 can do for example. No gear dependent boost control, no AFR & knock monitoring, no map switching in dash, no over temperature
or cold oil protection, etc.

Dinan is more like a JB4 in terms of the scope of tuning but they've chosen to keep power levels close to BMS Stage1 levels, since they are paying for any subsequent repairs.

Mike

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the response and detail.

Do you know if JB4 will ever get a harness that uses OEM connectors? I'd prefer to avoid any wire tapping or splicing.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Stubok

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the response and detail.

Do you know if JB4 will ever get a harness that uses OEM connectors? I'd prefer to avoid any wire tapping or splicing.

The JB4 uses OEM connectors. The only wire taps are these two removable posi-taps for CANbus. Those are unavoidable for JB4 features. So if they scare you just do the BMS Stage1. It's just as good as any other N20 tune out there, super easy to install, has some user adjustment, and well priced.

Mike

[opasha]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Race chips, DTMHaus, et. al. are just more expensive versions of the BMS Stage1. They don't have CAN bus access and thus are much more limited in the scope of tuning they can do. They won't be able to do anything a JB4 can do for example. No gear dependent boost control, no AFR & knock monitoring, no map switching in dash, no over temperature
or cold oil protection, etc.

Dinan is more like a JB4 in terms of the scope of tuning but they've chosen to keep power levels close to BMS Stage1 levels, since they are paying for any subsequent repairs.

Mike

Lots of improper information from someone who reps BMS products real hard. DTMHaus is not even a chip manufacturer. Maybe you should do some of your own research before speaking about other manufacturers. Considering RaceChip doesn't even tap into the MAF sensors for the n63tu engine of the F15 50i as the BMS Stage 1 does, your info is completely wrong. Clearly this makes parameters different. 42pilot might teach you a thing or two about both companies if you ask him since he builds engines/cars from scratch and has tested both RaceChip and BMS. I don't ever post negative responses in this manner, but I can't stand people that provide wrong information to all forum members. You should be a bit more responsible than that considering your rep, post count, and title. Do I have anything to do with RaceChip? No. I even recommend BMS to others who have the 50i for much easier install since the MAF sensors are so easy to reach compared to the MAP sensors of the RaceChip tune. I give equal weight to every manufacturer in my research. Your post would be far more credible if you took the time to learn a bit more about the pros and cons of many chip manufacturers. This is also a reason why I will never rep a company. It takes away from your credibility if wrong information is ever given.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by opasha

Lots of improper information from someone who reps BMS products real hard. DTMHaus is not even a chip manufacturer. Maybe you should do some of your own research before speaking about other manufacturers. Considering RaceChip doesn't even tap into the MAF sensors for the n63tu engine of the F15 50i as the BMS Stage 1 does, your info is completely wrong. Clearly this makes parameters different. 42pilot might teach you a thing or two about both companies if you ask him since he builds engines/cars from scratch and has tested both RaceChip and BMS. I don't ever post negative responses in this manner, but I can't stand people that provide wrong information to all forum members. You should be a bit more responsible than that considering your rep, post count, and title. Do I have anything to do with RaceChip? No. I even recommend BMS to others who have the 50i for much easier install since the MAF sensors are so easy to reach compared to the MAP sensors of the RaceChip tune. I give equal weight to every manufacturer in my research. Your post would be far more credible if you took the time to learn a bit more about the pros and cons of many chip manufacturers. This is also a reason why I will never rep a company. It takes away from your credibility if wrong information is ever given.

You can't tune a n63tu motor via the MAP sensors. If your n63tu tune is not altering the MAF signals then its running stock like power levels. Believe me, I know, as sometimes n63tu customers will buy the BMS n63 tune by mistake. BMS makes tunes specifically for each motor which are based on dyno and track testing for that specific motor...

Mike

[FSociety]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Race chips, DTMHaus, et. al. are just more expensive versions of the BMS Stage1. They don't have CAN bus access and thus are much more limited in the scope of tuning they can do. They won't be able to do anything a JB4 can do for example. No gear dependent boost control, no AFR & knock monitoring, no map switching in dash, no over temperature
or cold oil protection, etc.
Dinan is more like a JB4 in terms of the scope of tuning but they've chosen to keep power levels close to BMS Stage1 levels, since they are paying for any subsequent repairs.
Mike

I can only chime in for the N20 engine, RaceChip Ultimate is infact not a more expensive version of BMS Stage1. Infact, BMS Stage1 is what AFE Scorcher is and they're priced right in the same range. More and more people are seeing RaceChip is good easier to live with and tweak, great discount thanks to all the forum members contribution.

A simple look at the max settings we can achieve with RaceChip ultimate are showing 296hp 310 lb-ft torque. There are other N20 members already with Stage1, JB4 and now RaceChip. They're are seeing how much easier it is to install RC, increase or lower the settings as well and its unit is water-resistance quality. BMS is no slouch but to say JB4 is like Dinan is not right. The dynos for N20 on BMS site shows JB4 is not even near Dinan performance, JB4 def surpasses stage1 but ... (not sure if more than 310hp for our engine) but you will need other mods which end up costing you more than Dinan after all is said and done.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The JB4 uses OEM connectors. The only wire taps are these two removable posi-taps for CANbus. Those are unavoidable for JB4 features. So if they scare you just do the BMS Stage1. It's just as good as any other N20 tune out there, super easy to install, has some user adjustment, and well priced. Mike

AFE Scorcher is only 2 wires which is much easier to install than BMS Stage1 with the same performance. RaceChip Ultimate which is similar to Stage1/JB4 settings can be tweaked to be same performance as stage1, more than stage2 and as much as 296HP/310 torque with 93 octane and testing of each setting since variables count for each car.


RaceChip Ultimate Max: 296 HP 310 torque $600-769
Known in Europe as King for Diesel becoming famous in the USA as of recent for Petrol engines, Settings can be changed directly from Unit no need for laptop or usb cables extra cost.
Dinan Max: 310 HP / 328 torque $1500-2000

BMS Stage 1: $380 + $30-35 cable
I'm confused going by the website the stage1 N20 page says Unmodified N26 233hp\253tq , N26 PumpGas 264hp/291tq, N26 RaceGas 283hp/317tq. But then the Stage2 dyno says N20 w/ 91 oem 233/241, N20 stage1 257/280 and JB4 stage2_91 268/302 .. So in the stage2 page comparison dyno it lowers the hp/tq originally found in stage1 link/chart.

BMS Stage2/jb4: 268hp | 302 tq - $529 + $30-35 for USB Cable to change settings or datalog
Sure you can reach 303hp/348tq with JB4 only when you do the E85 mod (and it doesn't work on all N20) which no one with a lease will or in their right mind do it.

Afe Scorcher: up to 38 hp and 49 lbs-ft torque $375-$480

And its hard to say every vehicle will reach the same max settings too many variables.

Just adding to what opasha mentioned , thought I chime in on what I have learned in the past 6 months in researching all these tunes and hearing good/bad experience on others with different cars not just 1.
Kendroz can chime in on his experience with BMS and RaceChip gragi has AFE

None of these piggyback are bad, it is meant for different individual and modding levels. Some do not have a garage, experience, or time to data log, hook up a usb cable to their laptop and work, but then some do. Some rather have something with warranty or something less expensive that works and can be tweaked from the unit (simple). I am not repping RC or any piggyback brand etc. I have friends with AFE Scorcher/BMS/Dinan/RC/Remus/ and soon custom ECU.

In the near future I may or may not, take my X3 to my local tuner who works with European Performance Tuners, to dyno with my piggyback, without it and then I might do a custom tune he also works with BR-Performance thats overseas.

[opasha]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You can't tune a n63tu motor via the MAP sensors. If your n63tu tune is not altering the MAF signals then its running stock like power levels. Believe me, I know, as sometimes n63tu customers will buy the BMS n63 tune by mistake. BMS makes tunes specifically for each motor which are based on dyno and track testing for that specific motor...

Mike

The RaceChip actually works with the MAF sensors but because of the specific parameters the chip is modifying, it will produce a CEL if driven more than 5-10 miles on the MAF sensors - however, you do notice the increased settings as they should be noted - I tested this based on bluelodge400's install of his BMS Stage 1 install for his 50i. The RaceChip TB Ultimate tune being only on the MAP sensors completely changes the vehicle throttle response and power output. This is noted quite easily when changing the settings with increase of 1.5% for hp with each click on the actual tune. Why did RaceChip decide to use the MAP sensors instead of the MAF sensors? I don't know. It's a pain in the butt for sure when installing, but the difference in performance is huge. BMS stage 1 users also noted a difference. The only way for me to give better feedback on which is better than the other would be to drive my friend's BMS Stage 1 tuned 50i. Only problem is, no one near me that I know to test, so I go by their experiences and not once have I negated or said RaceChip is better or worse than their BMS tune. Also, you don't have to educate me on BMS products and their dyno information. I've read, done research, and spoken to many individuals regarding their tunes when comparing to other manufacturers like Cobb, aFe, Remus, RaceChip, Dinan, etc.

Here's some very basic information on the differences in case anyone is lost on our discussion between the MAP and MAF sensors: http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tu...0vs%20MAF.html

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by ROBNYC

I can only chime in for the N20 engine, RaceChip Ultimate is infact not a more expensive version of BMS Stage1. Infact, BMS Stage1 is what AFE Scorcher is and they're priced right in the same range. More and more people are seeing RaceChip is good easier to live with and tweak, great discount thanks to all the forum members contribution.

A simple look at the max settings we can achieve with RaceChip ultimate are showing 296hp 310 lb-ft torque. There are other N20 members already with Stage1, JB4 and now RaceChip. They're are seeing how much easier it is to install RC, increase or lower the settings as well and its unit is water-resistance quality. BMS is no slouch but to say JB4 is like Dinan is not right. The dynos for N20 on BMS site shows JB4 is not even near Dinan performance, JB4 def surpasses stage1 but ... (not sure if more than 310hp for our engine) but you will need other mods which end up costing you more than Dinan after all is said and done.


AFE Scorcher is only 2 wires which is much easier to install than BMS Stage1 with the same performance. RaceChip Ultimate which is similar to Stage1/JB4 settings can be tweaked to be same performance as stage1, more than stage2 and as much as 296HP/310 torque with 93 octane and testing of each setting since variables count for each car.


RaceChip Ultimate Max: 296 HP 310 torque $600-769
Known in Europe as King for Diesel becoming famous in the USA as of recent for Petrol engines, Settings can be changed directly from Unit no need for laptop or usb cables extra cost.
Dinan Max: 310 HP / 328 torque $1500-2000

BMS Stage 1: $380 + $30-35 cable
I'm confused going by the website the stage1 N20 page says Unmodified N26 233hp\253tq , N26 PumpGas 264hp/291tq, N26 RaceGas 283hp/317tq. But then the Stage2 dyno says N20 w/ 91 oem 233/241, N20 stage1 257/280 and JB4 stage2_91 268/302 .. So in the stage2 page comparison dyno it lowers the hp/tq originally found in stage1 link/chart.

BMS Stage2/jb4: 268hp | 302 tq - $529 + $30-35 for USB Cable to change settings or datalog
Sure you can reach 303hp/348tq with JB4 only when you do the E85 mod (and it doesn't work on all N20) which no one with a lease will or in their right mind do it.

Afe Scorcher: up to 38 hp and 49 lbs-ft torque $375-$480

And its hard to say every vehicle will reach the same max settings too many variables.

Just adding to what opasha mentioned , thought I chime in on what I have learned in the past 6 months in researching all these tunes and hearing good/bad experience on others with different cars not just 1.
Kendroz can chime in on his experience with BMS and RaceChip gragi has AFE

None of these piggyback are bad, it is meant for different individual and modding levels. Some do not have a garage, experience, or time to data log, hook up a usb cable to their laptop and work, but then some do. Some rather have something with warranty or something less expensive that works and can be tweaked from the unit (simple). I am not repping RC or any piggyback brand etc. I have friends with AFE Scorcher/BMS/Dinan/RC/Remus/ and soon custom ECU.

In the near future I may or may not, take my X3 to my local tuner who works with European Performance Tuners, to dyno with my piggyback, without it and then I might do a custom tune he also works with BR-Performance thats overseas.

If you are going to quote dyno numbers then it would be great to post up some dynojet charts. It seems many of these non-USA tuners either never show actual dyno charts or use non-dynojet numbers that are inflated. Dinan rates their tune in CRANK HP which is also imaginary so can't be compared to dynos. In order to really compare the power output of various tunes, the very least they need to be done on the same type of dyno. (ideally same dyno but thats difficult to do unless someone does a tune shootout or testing day)

Would be great if we could see your dynojet chart for Race Chip & Dinan. You will see that they are most likely similar to BMS Stage1 curve here:



And with a JB4 you can make over 300whp on a dynojet with the proper fuel to support it...



Regarding the BMS Stage1 the harness & software were revised and it's now a simple clean 2 connector only harness. This is something a few customers including myself have asked for. Boost can be adjusted from 0 to 6psi over stock using the free software interface, default value is 3psi over stock.

Mike

[FSociety]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If you are going to quote dyno numbers then it would be great to post up some dynojet charts. It seems many of these non-USA tuners either never show actual dyno charts or use non-dynojet numbers that are inflated. Dinan rates their tune in CRANK HP which is also imaginary so can't be compared to dynos. In order to really compare the power output of various tunes, the very least they need to be done on the same type of dyno. (ideally same dyno but thats difficult to do unless someone does a tune shootout or testing day)

Would be great if we could see your dynojet chart for Race Chip & Dinan. You will see that they are most likely similar to BMS Stage1 curve here:



And with a JB4 you can make over 300whp on a dynojet with the proper fuel to support it...



Regarding the BMS Stage1 the harness & software were revised and it's now a simple clean 2 connector only harness. This is something a few customers including myself have asked for. Boost can be adjusted from 0 to 6psi over stock using the free software interface, default value is 3psi over stock.

Mike

Dinan_Engineering
DINAN_GT Dinan-M
can you confirm this?

[jamoka3]

It is nice to see some dyno charts...like i stated in another post, there are too many variation with the crank and wheel hp/tq gains across all tuning manufactures.
Dinan - rates crank
RC- I assume rates crank
BMS- shows dyno as wheel gains.
BP-R - Emailed about if hp / tq gains are crank or wheel, did not get back to me ...so?

Let make is simple people! ALL DYNOS SHOULD BE WHEEL HP/TQ GAINS!
Non of this "crank" hp/tq gains. Wheel hp/tq gains are what the car is putting down to the street so im my mind thats the REAL world gains

[bahasad]

I dyno'd my car with only a BMS Stage 1. The dyno was a Mustang dyno on a 75 degree day. My car is AWD and N26. So we're talking large drivetrain loss/low reading dyno here (at least 20%).

I put something like 230 HP down and like 250 or 255 FT-LBs of torque. That would equate to around 285+ HP at the crank/300+ FT-LBs of torque. Not bad.

I would say the BMS Stage 1 is a pretty decent tune for its price, even though I would definitely like to try the Race chips tune as well.

[jamoka3]

Originally Posted by bahasad

I dyno'd my car with only a BMS Stage 1. The dyno was a Mustang dyno on a 75 degree day. My car is AWD and N26. So we're talking large drivetrain loss/low reading dyno here (at least 20%).

I put something like 230 HP down and like 250 or 255 FT-LBs of torque. That would equate to around 285+ HP at the crank/300+ FT-LBs of torque. Not bad.

I would say the BMS Stage 1 is a pretty decent tune for its price, even though I would definitely like to try the Race chips tune as well.

That's perfect! that's exactly what i was looking for. Now we need some RC, Dinan, and BR-P testimonies of dyno runs.

[jamoka3]

As stated before...by ROBNYC
" BMS Stage 1: $380 + $30-35 cable
I'm confused going by the website the stage1 N20 page says Unmodified N26 233hp\253tq , N26 PumpGas 264hp/291tq, N26 RaceGas 283hp/317tq. But then the Stage2 dyno says N20 w/ 91 oem 233/241, N20 stage1 257/280 and JB4 stage2_91 268/302 .. So in the stage2 page comparison dyno it lowers the hp/tq originally found in stage1 link/chart."


*Mike (BMS), why does it show two different results for stage 1 BMS? I'm running the N26 engine as well, and in NJ i will be running it with 93 octane( since i fill up with 93 now stock), so is it the one posted at (N26 PumpGas 264hp/291tq)? With no other modifications on my N26 i should see those results on a dyno at my wheels?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by jamoka3

As stated before...by ROBNYC
" BMS Stage 1: $380 + $30-35 cable
I'm confused going by the website the stage1 N20 page says Unmodified N26 233hp\253tq , N26 PumpGas 264hp/291tq, N26 RaceGas 283hp/317tq. But then the Stage2 dyno says N20 w/ 91 oem 233/241, N20 stage1 257/280 and JB4 stage2_91 268/302 .. So in the stage2 page comparison dyno it lowers the hp/tq originally found in stage1 link/chart."


*Mike (BMS), why does it show two different results for stage 1 BMS? I'm running the N26 engine as well, and in NJ i will be running it with 93 octane( since i fill up with 93 now stock), so is it the one posted at (N26 PumpGas 264hp/291tq)? With no other modifications on my N26 i should see those results on a dyno at my wheels?

Even among dynojets expect car to car and day to day variance. But if you're going to make internet dyno comparisons accept nothing other than dynojet charts. Anything else is meaningless.

As far a dyno power expect around 7whp per every pound of boost added. This will be true for any tune. Stage1 adds 3-4psi while the JB4 adds 3-6psi depending on the engine speed and conditions.

Mike