[simsimma777]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

I cant blame the dealer for choosing not to fix your transmission the second time around. you launch a new, not fully broken in transmission, break it. they give you a new one, and you do the same damn thing to the brand new unit again? and then you're angry at them for choosing not to fix your mistake? wow.

I hope you know not to launch a brand new transmission before its broken in now.

Wow I'm not sure where all this anger is coming from, but you are making some unfounded assumptions. Are you my field rep?

For the record, first transmission was fully broken in before car was ever launched. I'm not sure when the whine first developed, but I noticed it shortly after my first oil change at 5K miles.

I followed break-in on the replacement tranny on my own accord. My SA was useless when I asked him if there was anything I needed to know. He said first tranny was just a faulty part.

Also as mentioned in my post, the 2nd tranny started whining within the first 200-300 miles of getting the car back. Car had not been launched at that point, which is why I'm convinced LC is unrelated. First launch prob happened around 2K miles into the replacement.

I only waited to bring it back to the dealer since my oil change was coming up at 10K. Had I known I would face a problem, I would have never launched it until after dealer visit.

I don't know if I came across as an idiot in my post, but I can assure I know how to take care of my car. I would not be pursuing this if I abused the car, and risk having my entire warranty voided.


EDIT: Here are some links to others reporting the same ZF8 problem I'm having.

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1327254
https://www.tapatalk.com/topic/16845...-gearbox-whine
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1271346
http://www.babybmw.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=84455
http://www.babybmw.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80100
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1309227

[simsimma777]

Originally Posted by VCuomo

Have you asked them to point out where the "rules" for Launch Control are explained/published? 4 instances of Launch Control in 10,000 miles doesn't sound excessive to me.

I didn't ask because the rules are in our user manuals. It doesn't state a limit, but does mention that it causes some wear and to wait few minutes between launches. It also mentions that LC will adjust to road conditions after first launch, so it is kinda encouraging at least try it twice.

The 4 launches were on the replacement tranny (well after break-in), not lifetime of the vehicle. All 4 where not done at the same time.

I still don't see that as excessive, and even if LC is too blame, 4 launches done properly should not damage a tranny, and if it does, should be covered under warranty. That's like $2K a launch. Also, they would have people at their dealership everyday with LC caused tranny problems.

Again that's a moot point because the whine developed before use of LC, just not sure how to prove that to them since I waited for an oil change to bring the car in to the dealer.

Dealership tried to convince me that is just a noise and won't fail, but I think the field rep is just being a cheap-skate since 2 trannys would be half the cost of the car.

[STR8-6IX]

Originally Posted by ballinisahabit

Wow I'm not sure where all this anger is coming from, but you are making some unfounded assumptions. Are you my field rep?

For the record, first transmission was fully broken in before car was ever launched. I'm not sure when the whine first developed, but I noticed it shortly after my first oil change at 5K miles.

I followed break-in on the replacement tranny on my own accord. My SA was useless when I asked him if there was anything I needed to know. He said first tranny was just a faulty part.

Also as mentioned in my post, the 2nd tranny started whining within the first 200-300 miles of getting the car back. Car had not been launched at that point, which is why I'm convinced LC is unrelated. First launch prob happened around 2K miles into the replacement.

I only waited to bring it back to the dealer since my oil change was coming up at 10K. Had I known I would face a problem, I would have never launched it until after dealer visit.

I don't know if I came across as an idiot in my post, but I can assure I know how to take care of my car. I would not be pursuing this if I abused the car, and risk having my entire warranty voided.

you clearly dont know how to take care of your car if you blew two transmissions in a row. 2000 miles is still way too early to be launching and very likely what escalated the failure of your unit.

any sort of hard revving on a new transmission could ruin it. how did you drive when you got the second transmission?

[donkey]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

you clearly dont know how to take care of your car if you blew two transmissions in a row. 2000 miles is still way too early to be launching and very likely what escalated the failure of your unit.

any sort of hard revving on a new transmission could ruin it. how did you drive when you got the second transmission?

So you work on transmissions then, what causes the tranny to fail (specific parts) by just hard revving it? Just curious

[jeffc83]

[Joe_E]

How much power is this transmission able to tolerate?

[simsimma777]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

you clearly dont know how to take care of your car if you blew two transmissions in a row. 2000 miles is still way too early to be launching and very likely what escalated the failure of your unit.

any sort of hard revving on a new transmission could ruin it. how did you drive when you got the second transmission?

Gently till about 1.5K on the replacement tranny. Then mix of casual and spirited driving. Car is always warmed up before building revs.

I'm not handling my car with white gloves, but its far from abuse justifying a warranty denial. I take care of my car. Again, I want to emphasize that the whine started about 200 miles in, LC was not used at that point.

I edited my earlier comment to add some links to others reporting this issue across a wide range of models. Would encourage you to take a look.

[STR8-6IX]

Originally Posted by ballinisahabit

Gently till about 1.5K on the replacement tranny. Then mix of casual and spirited driving. Car is always warmed up before building revs.

I'm not handling my car with white gloves, but its far from abuse justifying a warranty denial. I take care of my car. Again, I want to emphasize that the whine started about 200 miles in, LC was not used at that point.

I edited my earlier comment to add some links to others reporting this issue across a wide range of models. Would encourage you to take a look.

hm.. i dont understand what the problem could be. my ZF is operating perfectly fine at 115k KM

[White340]

Have you lawyered up? If they don't state any limits or clauses in their user manual regarding use of launch control, then i don't see how they can deny your claim for using it. If its that damaging to the car, just don't offer the feature, period.

Some cars which have this feature state the limit. I recall reading that the new NSX has to have its clutch replaced after xx number of launches. At least they are being clear about its use.

With respect to using it right away after the tranny was replaced, this again could be fixed by software if they really wanted you to break in the transmission before using it. Limiting its use until 1k or 2k or whatever transmission experts think is the proper break in period is an easy thing to code in.

[STR8-6IX]

Originally Posted by White340

Have you lawyered up? If they don't state any limits or clauses in their user manual regarding use of launch control, then i don't see how they can deny your claim for using it. If its that damaging to the car, just don't offer the feature, period.

Some cars which have this feature state the limit. I recall reading that the new NSX has to have its clutch replaced after xx number of launches. At least they are being clear about its use.

With respect to using it right away after the tranny was replaced, this again could be fixed by software if they really wanted you to break in the transmission before using it. Limiting its use until 1k or 2k or whatever transmission experts think is the proper break in period is an easy thing to code in.

so you're saying that ZF should be blamed for failing to mention anything about launch control? what is this, a 500HP supercar like the NSX? no.. its a 250,300,400 hp at most daily driver driven by the average person who will likely never launch the car for its whole life. how can you compare the NSX to an average BMW? two different cars with different purposes, different drivers with very different driving styles.. it doesnt make sense.

the break-in procedure for a transmission takes much longer then 1-2000 miles. this is likely why he blew his second transmission in a row.

[White340]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

so you're saying that ZF should be blamed for failing to mention anything about launch control? what is this, a 500HP supercar like the NSX? no.. its a 250,300,400 hp at most daily driver driven by the average person who will likely never launch the car for its whole life. how can you compare the NSX to an average BMW? two different cars with different purposes, different drivers with very different driving styles.. it doesnt make sense.

the break-in procedure for a transmission takes much longer then 1-2000 miles. this is likely why he blew his second transmission in a row.

I'm not comparing the NSX to the 340. I'm comparing two transmissions that have the same feature, but one of which has a disclaimer on its usage. If BMW thought no one would use it, then why would they have put it in the car to begin with? If no one would miss it, why not exclude it and never have to worry about having these warranty issues? It could also have saved them money on replacing his first transmission, no?

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

you clearly dont know how to take care of your car if you blew two transmissions in a row. 2000 miles is still way too early to be launching and very likely what escalated the failure of your unit.

any sort of hard revving on a new transmission could ruin it. how did you drive when you got the second transmission?

Definitely suspect...

Originally Posted by Joe_E

How much power is this transmission able to tolerate?

The answer is it depends.

The problem is a part of transmission reliability and failure rates relate to heat. Heat will kill your torque converter and transmission. This is fact.

If you look at the differences between transmissions and even incremental revisions such as the ZF 8HP45 and ZF8HP50, there's almost always changes into the heat exchanger/transmission cooling as each transmission has different heat production/cooling properties.

So when someone says, "My car has a tuned N55 with [x] power/torque and the transmission hasn't grenaded itself...", you have to understand their use case. If the most they do is 10-30 second pulls at WOT with that setup, the transmission may be fine. 10-30 seconds is not that much time to build up and may not overheat the entire system. However, if you're running your car at 10/10ths for 20-30 minute sessions at a HPDE or Race School, there's a very good chance that an aftermarket tuned setup would generate enough heat to damage or significantly reduce the life of the transmission.

[STR8-6IX]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Definitely suspect...



The answer is it depends.

The problem is a part of transmission reliability and failure rates relate to heat. Heat will kill your torque converter and transmission. This is fact.

If you look at the differences between transmissions and even incremental revisions such as the ZF 8HP45 and ZF8HP50, there's almost always changes into the heat exchanger/transmission cooling as each transmission has different heat production/cooling properties.

So when someone says, "My car has a tuned N55 with [x] power/torque and the transmission hasn't grenaded itself...", you have to understand their use case. If the most they do is 10-30 second pulls at WOT with that setup, the transmission may be fine. 10-30 seconds is not that much time to build up and may not overheat the entire system. However, if you're running your car at 10/10ths for 20-30 minute sessions at a HPDE or Race School, there's a very good chance that an aftermarket tuned setup would generate enough heat to damage or significantly reduce the life of the transmission.

I heard that the ZF is able to handle lots of torque (500 ft/lb) if i am correct, but the transmission is only tuned for the application it is used in. (eg, 250 ft/lb in a 328i)

so, if you run your transmission hard, an oil cooler will help protect it? would you also need to reflash your transmission for the extra power?

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

I heard that the ZF is able to handle lots of torque (500 ft/lb) if i am correct, but the transmission is only tuned for the application it is used in. (eg, 250 ft/lb in a 328i)

so, if you run your transmission hard, an oil cooler will help protect it? would you also need to reflash your transmission for the extra power?

The key is how you define "handle".

Like I said previously, if by "handle" you mean the transmission hasn't suffered a catastrophic failure with a couple short WOT pulls, then I guess the transmission has "handled" it.

However, that use case is significantly different from driving the car to its mechanical limit for 20 to 30 mins.

Will an oil cooler help protect it? Maybe. By how much... who knows, unless someone has done thorough testing.

Also, a reflash won't do much for the longevity of your transmission unless you're using software to address an engineering defect. It's already this late into the game that if BMW felt there was a software fix, it would have already been incorporated into the EGS flash for PsdZData.


My philosophy is if you think you're going to be be tracking your car, the total cost of doing it correctly the first time is usually less expensive than experimenting with unknowns, breaking something, and then trying to fix it.

In other words, it is far less expensive to purchase an F8X M3/M4 and track it than it is to purchase a F3X, mod it to try to keep up with an M3, experience a catastrophic failure that won't be covered by warranty, and then pay to have it fixed.

This is with the understanding that you're far more likely to push a car to its engineering envelope/mechanical limit at the track that you would be doing 10-20 second WOT pulls.

[simsimma777]

Originally Posted by White340

Have you lawyered up? If they don't state any limits or clauses in their user manual regarding use of launch control, then i don't see how they can deny your claim for using it. If its that damaging to the car, just don't offer the feature, period.

Some cars which have this feature state the limit. I recall reading that the new NSX has to have its clutch replaced after xx number of launches. At least they are being clear about its use.

With respect to using it right away after the tranny was replaced, this again could be fixed by software if they really wanted you to break in the transmission before using it. Limiting its use until 1k or 2k or whatever transmission experts think is the proper break in period is an easy thing to code in.

Haven't lawyered up yet, but spoke to my company's attorney and he advised to go through the BMW process first, then let him know if it doesn't work out. I'm waiting for the BMWNA rep to call me back after this latest news.

BTW, my car is completely stock (other than cosmetic stuff). They said the car hasn't thrown any errors. The car still drives fine, but the noise is very loud.

I understand 2 failures in a short period would invite extra scrutiny, but I think they went in with that bias and automatically assumed LC when they saw it was used, and didn't look any further. They haven't shown me a shred of proof how they can definitively say it was LC, and how they have ruled out other possibilities. Per the SA, this is what the field rep determined based on his experience.

Also I don't understand how the first failure wasn't related to LC, but the second one is.

Below is what the manual says regarding break-in and LC to clear up some misconceptions. That's how I knew what procedure to follow since my SA was useless in the info department. As noted, LC will be locked out if you try to use it too soon.




General information
Moving parts need time to adjust to one another
(break-in time).
The following instructions will help accomplish
a long vehicle life and good efficiency.
During break-in, do not use the Launch Control,
refer to page 74.
Engine, transmission, and axle drive
Up to 1,200 miles/2,000 km
Do not exceed the maximum engine and road
speed:
▷ For gasoline engine 4,500 rpm and
100 mph/160 km/h.
Avoid full load or kickdown under all circumstances.
From 1,200 miles/2,000 km
The engine and vehicle speed can gradually be
increased.

Following part replacement
The same break-in procedures should be observed
if any of the components above-mentioned
have to be renewed in the course of the
vehicle's operating life.



------



Steptronic Sport transmission:
Launch Control
The concept
Launch Control enables optimum acceleration
on surfaces with good traction.
Hints
Component wear
Do not use Launch Control too often;
otherwise, this may result in premature wear of
components due to the high stress placed on
the vehicle.◀
Do not use Launch Control during the break-in,
refer to page 152, period.
To increase vehicle stability, activate DSC
again as soon as possible.
An experienced driver may be able to achieve
better acceleration values in DSC OFF mode.
Requirements
Launch Control is available when the engine is
warmed up, that is, after uninterrupted driving
of at least 6 miles/10 km.


Before using Launch Control, allow the transmission
to cool down for approx. 5 minutes.
Launch Control adjusts to the surrounding
conditions, e.g., wet pavement, when used
again.

[VCuomo]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

... the break-in procedure for a transmission takes much longer then 1-2000 miles. ...

Not according to the BMW User Manual (it states 1,200 miles).

What is your source?

[tlow98]

Originally Posted by VCuomo

Not according to the BMW User Manual (it states 1,200 miles).

What is your source?

His source is he's 18, and while I don't like to count people out based on their age, in this case it seems to cover the overall issue.

[Wires]

The ZF comes in various torque variants. The one in the 340 is designed to handle 450 ftlbs at the input shaft. They have lower torque units as well as higher torque units (ending up in the Dodge trucks for example).

A flaw in the transmission housing can cause re-occurring failures, and has nothing to do with the user. If they pull the same transmission, and just fix the innards, it's possible to have another reoccurring failure. Mind you, abuse could have put a twist in the housing (unlikely but still possible). If the tranny was swapped for new, then it's purely a user issue.

That being said, if you want to substantially reduce the life of any auto transmission, use launch control. If basically puts the transmission in 1st and reverse at the same time. It's now locked, and cannot spin. When you rev up the engine, the torque converted crosses it's low engagement RPM, and starts to slip heavily. That heats the crap out of the oil and puts huge strain and pressure on the torque converter. Releasing the brake releases the reverse gear, and you get a huge torque input on the transmission.

Nothing about LC is remotely friendly to the transmission or driveline. Sure, it might be fun to do, but it is really hard on it, and perpetual use will definitely cause you premature transmission failures.

[STR8-6IX]

Originally Posted by Wires

The ZF comes in various torque variants. The one in the 340 is designed to handle 450 ftlbs at the input shaft. They have lower torque units as well as higher torque units (ending up in the Dodge trucks for example).

A flaw in the transmission housing can cause re-occurring failures, and has nothing to do with the user. If they pull the same transmission, and just fix the innards, it's possible to have another reoccurring failure. Mind you, abuse could have put a twist in the housing (unlikely but still possible). If the tranny was swapped for new, then it's purely a user issue.

That being said, if you want to substantially reduce the life of any auto transmission, use launch control. If basically puts the transmission in 1st and reverse at the same time. It's now locked, and cannot spin. When you rev up the engine, the torque converted crosses it's low engagement RPM, and starts to slip heavily. That heats the crap out of the oil and puts huge strain and pressure on the torque converter. Releasing the brake releases the reverse gear, and you get a huge torque input on the transmission.

Nothing about LC is remotely friendly to the transmission or driveline. Sure, it might be fun to do, but it is really hard on it, and perpetual use will definitely cause you premature transmission failures.

whoever uses launch control all the time should try it on a manual car and feel the stress through the shifter and clutch just to get an idea of what they are doing to their driveline..

I've used launch control a couple times before, and will never do it again. I havent in a while anyways.

the thing about ZF's is that they tend to feel a little gutless in the first two gears. third onwards you really feel the torque, so I tend to accelerate mainly in the higher gears these days.

[EvenKeel]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

you clearly dont know how to take care of your car if you blew two transmissions in a row. 2000 miles is still way too early to be launching and very likely what escalated the failure of your unit.

any sort of hard revving on a new transmission could ruin it. how did you drive when you got the second transmission?

You're full of it....and your assertions are baseless. Now go back to bashing the OP.

[STR8-6IX]

Originally Posted by EvenKeel

You're full of it....and your assertions are baseless. Now go back to bashing the OP.

breaking two transmissions in a row exactly the same way is an assertion in itself.

[LT87]

Hi guys, new member here a new a first time BMW owner.

Wanted to open a new thread but it seems I don't have enough privileges.

To make it short I bought about 10 days ago a BMW F30 320ed 2013 with almost 60k miles.

Until tonight everything was fine, when I started hearing this sound coming out of gearbox when I shift from parking to D, or D to N and vice versa. From N to R it's okay. So problem seems to be the D.

I have no idea what it might be, and can't go to the dealer until Monday.

Can you guys help me out?

I recorded the sound with my phone: