[CHCCubs]

Originally Posted by hinckley

You've got to be careful and do your homework.

Audi's "S-Line" is comparable to BMW's "Sport Line". It's all appearance. If you truly are interested in driving dynamics with AWD, you're comparing the BMW 335 xDrive with the optional DHP, and the Audi S4 with the optional rear sport diff. That's the true head-to-head comparo and the one I'd like to see.

I agree, I don't have any experience with the S4, but would assume it would be an improvement over the regular A4.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by 300hp

The extra weight is significantly outgunned by the added traction brought by the xdrive system.

Originally Posted by RPM90

Not sure why you're bringing up braking as which wheels are driven have no real affect on braking. So I don't know what you mean when you write that "..the effect is inconsequential...". I didn't compare braking in regard to AWD and RWD. I simply mentioned that wheel drive has no effect on braking. Maybe that's what you are agreeing with? I can't tell.

In any road surface or traction condition braking is directly affected by the tires and their available grip.
AWD doesn't improve that nor weaken brake ability.

In terms of "handling", as I said I prefer BMW's RWD to it's Xdrive in good traction conditions. You made a comment about Xdrive understeering less and that RWD under steers more. Not sure where you're getting that from, but please list the reference as I'd love to read how the writer and tester concluded that.

In traction limited conditions AWD can help handling due to ability of the front and rear tires to drive the car out of corner. This is why rally cars are amazing in traction limited conditions and dominate rally racing as RWD cars can't compete very well.

Not sure what you're getting at with the gas tank level, other than something to do with over all weight I guess.

+1. The key part is bolded. In traction limited conditions, perhaps the AWD. In situations where traction is now limiting, RWD.

Originally Posted by hinckley

You've got to be careful and do your homework.

Audi's "S-Line" is comparable to BMW's "Sport Line". It's all appearance. If you truly are interested in driving dynamics with AWD, you're comparing the BMW 335 xDrive with the optional DHP, and the Audi S4 with the optional rear sport diff. That's the true head-to-head comparo and the one I'd like to see.

The Audi's Quattro in the S4 is the superior AWD system hands down. As I understand it, the xDrive is only able to shift power between the front and rear axles. The S4 Quattro with the sport differential is a true (not brake induced) vectoring AWD system.

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

So what physical parts/components are different between the M Sport suspension and the standard/X-drive, and is it something that could be reasonably swapped out after hand? ...acknowledging that DHP dampers would be the same with that package.

The entire front end is different: cross-member/cradle, locating links, steering rack, etc. Sway bar might be the only common thing up there.

[fourseriesfan]

I've read all of this thread and a few others like it. I can appreciate that most of the posts are geared towards the 3-series. How about the 4-series?

I don't know enough about the suspension differences between the (pre-LCI) 3-series and the 4-series. Is there a strong consensus regarding the Adaptive M Suspension on the 4-series xDrive?

In particular, I'm looking at the 2016 standard 428i xDrive Coupe (which now has some of the previous Sport Line bits as standard).

[itrocks4u]

Originally Posted by fourseriesfan

I've read all of this thread and a few others like it. I can appreciate that most of the posts are geared towards the 3-series. How about the 4-series?

I don't know enough about the suspension differences between the (pre-LCI) 3-series and the 4-series. Is there a strong consensus regarding the Adaptive M Suspension on the 4-series xDrive?

In particular, I'm looking at the 2016 standard 428i xDrive Coupe (which now has some of the previous Sport Line bits as standard).

I think the adaptive suspension on 3 and 4 are pretty much the same.

[BimmerBoomer]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Although I really would like an M3, I sort of know that what I have is probably better for most situations. I'm 64 and don't have access to a track anywhere close. And certainly, when the rains are coming down sideways, I do feel a little more secure with AWD. Yes its not as pure a driving experience as a beautifully set up RWD M3 but, well, I'm just not that quick anymore.

Perhaps because we're the same age, I largely agree - although I preferred my 2010 M3 with Pilot Super Sports in the wet to my 435i xDrive with runflats (high performance Pirellis, summer and winter). But that's a tire thing. The times have changed as well. I could really use a lot of the performance of my E36 and E46 M3s on the street when the appropriate occasion arose. But the higher performance limits of the current cars and the current legal and law enforcement environment are such that I see little point in owning a real sports car.

[fourseriesfan]

Originally Posted by fourseriesfan

I've read all of this thread and a few others like it. I can appreciate that most of the posts are geared towards the 3-series. How about the 4-series?

I don't know enough about the suspension differences between the (pre-LCI) 3-series and the 4-series. Is there a strong consensus regarding the Adaptive M Suspension on the 4-series xDrive?

In particular, I'm looking at the 2016 standard 428i xDrive Coupe (which now has some of the previous Sport Line bits as standard).

Originally Posted by itrocks4u

I think the adaptive suspension on 3 and 4 are pretty much the same.

My bad, that's not quite what I'm asking.

I have seen numerous posts where people basically say, "If you get xDrive, you should get Adaptive."

Is this true for the 4-series as well?

(I ask because it has a "different" base suspension afaik.)

[WilliCO]

My xDrive DHP F10 535 handles nowhere near as well as my RWD E60 545 did. Obviously there are a lot more variables there than drive specification, but I thought I'd throw it out there for fun.

Now a more useful comparison -

Last summer I attended the Un4gettable driving event, where I drove a RWD 428 back to back with an xDrive 435. One right after the other. The 428 was an M-Sport model and therefore had the mechanical sport suspension. I think the 435 had DHP; it was the tricked-out M Performance one they had on their tour.

The difference in weight between the two engines may have played a role.

After driving my heavy, bouncy-nosed 535 for a year at that point, the RWD 428 was a revelation. It felt like a BMW is supposed to feel, and a lot like my 545 did. It had a certain sense of eagerness; like it wanted to run just a little faster than I did. The front end felt very taut; almost jiggly but not in a bad way. This is hard to describe other than to say that it felt like a sport sedan.

The 435 was fast, but I swear I felt the AWD system bogging down the experience. Couldn't put my thumb on it, but it was there. It felt more nimble than my 535, but not nearly as nimble as the 428. There was an Audi S5 there as well; when I drove that one it felt more like the 435 than the 428, which led me to believe that there is something about the way an AWD car feels in the front end - weight, torque, etc. - that makes them all feel a little ponderous.

Whenever I'm over on the Porsche forums, most of those guys even say that the only way to get the true 911 experience is with the RWD models; the "4" models have it in a diluted way.

So, setting aside the arguments about winter driving and snow tires, there may be something to the "purity of feel" RWD argument we always seem to hear. My experience seems to support it.

The only thing to do is drive a RWD and an xDrive variant of the same car, back-to-back on the same day. Sadly, I'm aware of very few dealers who could offer that experience. Definitely nobody in Denver.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by WilliCO

My xDrive DHP F10 535 handles nowhere near as well as my RWD E60 545 did. Obviously there are a lot more variables there than drive specification, but I thought I'd throw it out there for fun.

Now a more useful comparison -

Last summer I attended the Un4gettable driving event, where I drove a RWD 428 back to back with an xDrive 435. The 428 was an M-Sport model and therefore had the mechanical sport suspension. I think the 435 had DHP; it was the tricked-out M Performance one they had on their tour.

The difference in weight between the two engines may have played a role.

After driving my heavy, bouncy-nosed 535 for a year at that point, the RWD 428 was a revelation. It felt like a BMW is supposed to feel, and a lot like my 545 did. It had a certain sense of eagerness; like it wanted to run just a little faster than I did.

The 435 was fast, but I swear I felt the AWD system bogging down the experience. Couldn't put my thumb on it, but it was there. It felt more nimble than my 535, but not nearly as nimble as the 428. There was an Audi S5 there as well; when I drove that one it felt more like the 435 than the 428, which led me to believe that there is something about the way an AWD car feels in the front end - weight, torque, etc. - that makes them all feel a little ponderous.

Whenever I'm over on the Porsche forums, most of those guys even say that the only way to get the true 911 experience is with the RWD models; the "4" models have it in a diluted way.

So, setting aside the arguments about winter driving and snow tires, there may be something to the "purity of feel" RWD argument we always seem to hear. My experience seems to support it.

The only thing to do is drive a RWD and an xDrive variant of the same car, back-to-back on the same day. Sadly, I'm aware of very few dealers who could offer that experience. Definitely nobody in Denver.

It's funny you say this. I tracked an M235i, M2, M5, M6, 640i xdrive, 650i xdrive and 750i xdrive all at the same event. The event itself lasted about 4-5 hours. We auto crossed the M cars and we tracked the xdrive while chasing an experienced driver in a M5/6 at speeds that maxed out at about 150 mph.

I will say this I have never driven a 428i but I can't imagine the experience is close to driving an M235i. Especially when you factor in sound effects.

After that eventful day and getting back to my 335i xdrive with dhp, I would respectfully disagree that driving an xdrive is ponderous. I enjoyed taking the 6 series xdrives on some tight turns. We were not allowed to disengage traction control but even then those cars were fun to drive hard.

My favorite car after that day was the M6. Maybe I like them big



Edit
Just realized I have an M2 as on the list of cars I tracked, that would be a lie since the car is not out yet, lol. That car was not included and disregard that part since it's a typo

[WilliCO]

Originally Posted by 300hp

It's funny you say this. I tracked an M235i, M2, M5, M6, 640i xdrive, 650i xdrive and 750i xdrive all at the same event. The event itself lasted about 4-5 hours. We auto crossed the M cars and we tracked the xdrive while chasing an experienced driver in a M5/6 at speeds that maxed out at about 150 mph.

I will say this I have never driven a 428i but I can't imagine the experience is close to driving an M235i. Especially when you factor in sound effects.

After that eventful day and getting back to my 335i xdrive with dhp, I would respectfully disagree that driving an xdrive is ponderous. I enjoyed taking the 6 series xdrives on some time turns. We were not allowed to disengage traction control but even then those cars were fun to drive hard.

I really do think all of this depends a lot on personal bias and very much on the car you get out of right before you get into whatever it is you test drive. I stepped out of my 535, walked no more than 20 steps, and sat down into the 428. So, probably, my perception was more about the difference between the 535 and the 428 than it was truly about what makes the 428 the car it is.

Also - all these platforms appear to be differently engineered. By now I think we all agree that they made the 5 series pretty soft this time around. I believe, based on what Dunderhi has written and on my own brief test of a 640 xDrive, that their suspensions are fundamentally different than a 5 series. Same with a 2 series and a 3, probably.

The M235i you drove - was it a RWD or xDrive model? Kinda, I'd like to hear a lot of people say that the xDrive model is awesome. It would be an interesting choice for my next.

[tjlees]

Originally Posted by 300hp

It's funny you say this. I tracked an M235i, M2, M5, M6, 640i xdrive, 650i xdrive and 750i xdrive all at the same event. The event itself lasted about 4-5 hours. We auto crossed the M cars and we tracked the xdrive while chasing an experienced driver in a M5/6 at speeds that maxed out at about 150 mph.

I will say this I have never driven a 428i but I can't imagine the experience is close to driving an M235i. Especially when you factor in sound effects.

After that eventful day and getting back to my 335i xdrive with dhp, I would respectfully disagree that driving an xdrive is ponderous. I enjoyed taking the 6 series xdrives on some time turns. We were not allowed to disengage traction control but even then those cars were fun to drive hard.

+1
Just driven the really twisty roads to Oban, Scotland at speed! Sweet the 335 is not ponderous. It felt balanced, able to absorb the pot holed Scottish roads with ease. The handling through the EPS was good but isolated, the turn in confidence inspiring, the direction switches good!

It's no trackday car especially in the feedback and feel department but on the road its a weapon. In the Scottish sunshine (rain) the 335 xdrive on 19s lets go in a progressive way, where as my trackday would have just snapped into violent oversteer.

Must have been a good session in the 335, SWMBO was covering her eyes with the map

[300hp]

Originally Posted by WilliCO

I really do think all of this depends a lot on personal bias and very much on the car you get out of right before you get into whatever it is you test drive. I stepped out of my 535, walked no more than 20 steps, and sat down into the 428. So, probably, my perception was more about the difference between the 535 and the 428 than it was truly about what makes the 428 the car it is.

The M235i you drove - was it a RWD or xDrive model? Kinda, I'd like to hear a lot of people say that the xDrive model is awesome. It would be an interesting choice for my next.

This was a year or 2 ago so it was the rwd model since the xdrive M235s came out this year.

I think it's about perception honestly and which car you are coming from also makes a huge difference on the experience and conclusions you draw.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by tjlees

+1
Just driven the really twisty roads to Oban, Scotland at speed! Sweet the 335 is not ponderous. It felt balanced, able to absorb the pot holed Scottish roads with ease. The handling through the EPS was good but isolated, the turn in confidence inspiring, the direction switches good!

It's no trackday car especially in the feedback and feel department but on the road its a weapon. In the Scottish sunshine (rain) the 335 xdrive on 19s lets go in a progressive way, where as my trackday would have just snapped into violent oversteer.

Must have been a good session in the 335, SWMBO was covering her eyes with the map

We have the same set up with the 19s, I wish I could take it into the triple digits for a prolonged time, our speed limits here suck

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by WilliCO

The M235i you drove - was it a RWD or xDrive model? Kinda, I'd like to hear a lot of people say that the xDrive model is awesome. It would be an interesting choice for my next.

I'm all but certain that the 235xi is the only model in the BMW lineup that doesn't delete the sport suspension because of xdrive. That's definitely a good thing.

Interestingly, it was slower in all performance categories than its RWD counterpart by recent C&D testing.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

I'm all but certain that the 235xi is the only model in the BMW lineup that doesn't delete the sport suspension because of xdrive. That's definitely a good thing.

Interestingly, it was slower in all performance categories than its RWD counterpart by recent C&D testing.

Yes but in all fairness though that M235i was also slower than the 435i xdrive sans ppk on all seasons. I think something was wrong with that m235 test drive

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Yes but in all fairness though that M235i was also slower than the 435i xdrive sans ppk on all seasons. I think something was wrong with that m235 test drive

Seriously, that 300 hp 435xi was moving....13 flat @107...same exact numbers they got from the most recently tested S5.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

Seriously, that 300 hp 435xi was moving....13 flat @107...same exact numbers they got from the most recently tested S5.

Yeah, it hauled ass on that day. I thought it was 13.3/4s@107. It's the 107 that was quite impressive for me. That means with ppk 108-109 should be possible.

And people say the added traction on xdrives has no advantages on the dry pavement. I am yet to see a rwd F3x trap a 107. The highest I have seen is 105

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Yeah, it hauled ass on that day. I thought it was 13.3/4s@107. It's the 107 that was quite impressive for me. That means with ppk 108-109 should be possible

Yeah, 13.1.... 108-109 is definitely doable with the extra 35. Drivetrain loss with AWD what???

[300hp]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

Yeah, 13.1.... 108-109 is definitely doable with the extra 35. Drivetrain loss with AWD what???

Wow it did a 13.1@107!!!!



That's the same as the C400 with 329hp and 350 tq

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by CHCCubs

I was at that event as well (near Pearson Airport) and came away with similar impressions. A lot of folks seem to complain about the overly light steering feel of the F30, but from my impressions of the A4 at that event, it is much lighter than the F30 and just about every car in its class as well.

Same event. With the Audi I took out 2 cones and (almost) an overzealous organizer who decided to dash toward a speeding car because she got a little too ODC about the way the cones were organized. My pants were still dry but I got a 'talking to'. When I said I had tried to match the A4 and 328 speed the guy (named Guy?) said that he had the same problem.

It was a great event. I really loved that 335is though. I'd probably be sleeping in that car had I bought it but for the first few weeks it'd be awesome.

[creepy coupe]

I recently borrowed a 435d for the weekend and can honestly say I didn't know it was Xdrive for 95% of the time. Now that BMW have taken to using electro assisted steering I think the BMWness has gone to some extent.

[ska///235i]

Originally Posted by creepy coupe

I recently borrowed a 435d for the weekend and can honestly say I didn't know it was Xdrive for 95% of the time. Now that BMW have taken to using electro assisted steering I think the BMWness has gone to some extent.

Agree

My 428gc xdrive doesnt feel like a 4wd. I had a 2006 e90xi and that you can feel it....every bit of it