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      07-07-2013, 02:23 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longwong View Post
Man JV how much time do you spend online? Your posts are like novels and all defending the 328. Its entry level man-live with it. The 328 is bmw's econobox with decent performance. It has no performance bred intent and is not really an enthusiasts model. The last e90 328 was accepted widely as a better car for anyone who drives cars. Its ok. When you step up past entry level than I could see the fury but relax man. Enjoy the 35 mpg that the car was designed for and stop worrying that you are outperforming every other true drivers bmw
You added nothing new. My long NOVEL must have been lost on you-you didn't get the point.

Now, walking around like some elitist because what, you have an S65 and a proper LSD in your car and an inflated price tag-you are now elevated to talk down to everyone else here? Guess what, you have a 3 series too. Guess what, My car has an M badge, an LSD, lots of power too, but I know where it's routes are-yep, a normal production model just like the M3 has always been, based on the plebeian 3 series. Get your head out of your own ass where you claim it smells so great before pointing a finger at me that I am making out the 328 to be something more than any other BMW in the FORUM TO WHICH IT BELONGS.

Move along, focus on the car. Your hard on making it about me is not flattering to anyone, especially yourself.
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      07-07-2013, 02:25 PM   #222
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Words like Engaging and Focused are very debatable and suggestive. your whole statement is disputable. Thanks for giving us the final new revalation, Now that you have clarified everything we can put this to rest, thanks for doing that, your the man!

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Originally Posted by Propagator View Post
Jesus, 10 pages of bickering over this again?!?

I belatedly found this short comparo through the truth about cars, and logged on to see what others have to say about it. Naturally, I went to the E90 forum, since this is something E90 owners would like to hear about. Nothing there. So I came here to see if it's been posted just in case, and boom, a freaking thread explosion.

What is there left to argue? The facts are clear. The F30 is more comfortable, more livable, more efficient, but less engaging and less focused than the E90. The only disputable thing I can think of is the styling, and maybe the interior material. The rest is PURELY PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

All this BS about whether the 3 series is a sports car or not is just utter juvenile nonsense. Everything's a spectrum. The 3er used to sit on the sportier edge of that spectrum, and over the years has migrated towards the comfort/practicality end. It just so happens that the F30 is a fairly big leap in that migration compared to the E90. (For those that say the E90 was hated relative to the E46 when it came out, show me a review from 7 years ago that complains about the E90 being less engaging than the E46. Yes, people hated the styling initially, and it did get bigger and heavier, but very few complained about the E90 being softer than the E46.)

So if that migration is a good thing for you, great, enjoy the F30. If not, that's fine too, you'll just have to hold onto your E90 longer and hope that the new 2er will be more engaging. Isn't this all there is to this endless argument?
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      07-07-2013, 03:15 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Propagator View Post
The facts are clear. The F30 is more comfortable, more livable, more efficient, but less engaging and less focused than the E90.
How can that be a "fact" when the E90 328i I test-drove in 2011 was slow, mushy, and boring to drive, enough so for me to write off BMW altogether as hype rather than the "Ultimate Driving Machine?" Perhaps it's more "opinion" than fact. The A4 I drove at the same time was more fun to drive. (But not enough for me to purchase one - so I was still looking for car when the F30 came out, which I liked enough to custom order.)
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      07-07-2013, 03:27 PM   #224
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If you had driven BMW's like myself for more then a decade and had more experience behind a E9x or E46 models you might have understood what I am talking about a bit more.

Some of the main issues come from it feeling a bit more soft core specially when it comes to steering feel and feed back. The inline-4 turbo sounds a bit more crude specially at start up and at idle. It is also not as free revving and silky smooth. The noises it makes leaves a bit to be desired. Also, I find the interior plastic a bit cheaper feeling.

However, I can understand why you would prefer the F30 328i over E90 328i. The power and overall performance of the inline-4 turbo makes a compelling argument for itself. The MPG improvement is another plus with improved transmission offering of 8-speed. A lil more room in rear.

However, you have to realize all those advantages are not found in the F30 335i except for a lil more room in the rear. Other then that lil room the E9x 335is is far superior in driving dynamics and performance compared to the F F30 335i M sport.

So when I am talking I am not just talking of 328i offering but rather talking about as a whole F30 328i/335i.





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Originally Posted by elistan View Post
Or perhaps the opposite? Going into a purchase decision with never ever having driven a BMW before in my life - I found the F30 328i to be much more exciting to drive than the E90 328i. I drove an E90 and found it so blah that I wrote off BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine" as just so much hype. Then I drove an F30 a year later and put a deposit down. YMMV obviously, but keep in mind that E90 owners can have just as much purchase based bias blinders as F30 owners.

(In case you're curious, this preference for the F30 over the E90 for driving dynamics comes from a guy who has autocrossed cars like an Elise, Boxster S and S2000, and has tracked vehicles like a 944, S2000 and CBR600RR. That's not an appeal to authority, it's just to give an indication of what sort of cars I enjoy. I like driving the F30 so much I'm itching to do a track day with it but that's not what I got it for so I'm keeping the temptation in check.)

(Oh, and honestly, both the E90 and F30 are so freakin' quiet anyway that while I can understand somebody's preference for an I6 over an I4 [my favorite is an air-cooled flat-6, fwiw] I don't care one whit for that preference. They're both essentially silent to me. I wish the N20 had more of that NVH so I could better feel/hear what it's doing. It needs solid motor mounts or an ETD or something. And a much louder exhaust and intake, although I know the turbo quiets those down a little bit. Or one of those sound induction tubes from the intake to the cabin. Or heck, even the fake stereo noise the M5 does.)
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      07-07-2013, 03:41 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
If you had driven BMW's like myself for more then a decade and had more experience behind a E9x or E46 models you might have understood what I am talking about a bit more.

Some of the main issues come from it feeling a bit more soft core specially when it comes to steering feel and feed back. The inline-4 turbo sounds a bit more crude specially at start up and at idle. It is also not as free revving and silky smooth. The noises it makes leaves a bit to be desired. Also, I find the interior plastic a bit cheaper feeling.

However, I can understand why you would prefer the F30 328i over E90 328i. The power and overall performance of the inline-4 turbo makes a compelling argument for itself. The MPG improvement is another plus with improved transmission offering of 8-speed. A lil more room in rear.

However, you have to realize all those advantages are not found in the F30 335i except for a lil more room in the rear. Other then that lil room the E9x 335is is far superior in driving dynamics and performance compared to the F F30 335i M sport.

So when I am talking I am not just talking of 328i offering but rather talking about as a whole F30 328i/335i.

Some things are objective and some things subjective.

When the Lightning Lap was done last year, they had a NON MSport F30 335 with 19's and said great things about it and the time was the same for the years before where they did a lap in the E92 335is. Now keep in mind, there is not yet an equivelant to the IS, but in Canada they are selling for '14 an 335 with the PPK, exhaust, brakes, etc-kind of an F30 335is if you will. So for the new car in non top of the performing guise can equal the previous top of the line performing model(not including the M3), it should indicate there is improvement at work in how the car drives. Especially since the IS has the N54(with even more power in IS tune) which many support has more power than the N55 of the F30.

Now we are not talking about what the steering felt like between those two cars being lapped. That is very hard to quantify as it's opinion. But those lap times are far more concrete.

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      07-07-2013, 03:45 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
However, I can understand why you would prefer the F30 328i over E90 328i. The power and overall performance of the inline-4 turbo makes a compelling argument for itself. The MPG improvement is another plus with improved transmission offering of 8-speed. A lil more room in rear.

However, you have to realize all those advantages are not found in the F30 335i except for a lil more room in the rear. Other then that lil room the E9x 335is is far superior in driving dynamics and performance compared to the F F30 335i M sport.
You sure about that? No 8-speed in the 335i?

How much do you really know?
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      07-07-2013, 03:51 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by dinonz View Post
You sure about that? No 8-speed in the 335i?

How much do you really know?
In fact, the test I posted above has the Lightning Lap of the F30 335 8spd auto at 3:13.2, and the E92 335is with a more "sporting" 7spd DCT at 3:13.8.

I did not hear any mention of the terrible steering. To make a confident lap, one would think you would rely very much on the steering.

That was '12.

Now for '13, supplied for the same test-BMW can offer an MSport with all kinds of MP goodies like, brakes, wheels, suspension, PPK, exhaust, more in line with what the E92 335 is had as a top of the line sport model. Do we really think there won't be any further improvement in lap times?
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      07-07-2013, 03:54 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
If you had driven BMW's like myself for more then a decade and had more experience behind a E9x or E46 models you might have understood what I am talking about a bit more.

Some of the main issues come from it feeling a bit more soft core specially when it comes to steering feel and feed back. The inline-4 turbo sounds a bit more crude specially at start up and at idle. It is also not as free revving and silky smooth. The noises it makes leaves a bit to be desired. Also, I find the interior plastic a bit cheaper feeling.

However, I can understand why you would prefer the F30 328i over E90 328i. The power and overall performance of the inline-4 turbo makes a compelling argument for itself. The MPG improvement is another plus with improved transmission offering of 8-speed. A lil more room in rear.

However, you have to realize all those advantages are not found in the F30 335i except for a lil more room in the rear. Other then that lil room the E9x 335is is far superior in driving dynamics and performance compared to the F F30 335i M sport.

So when I am talking I am not just talking of 328i offering but rather talking about as a whole F30 328i/335i.
The E9x 335is should not be compared to the M sport F30, since there is no F30 335is yet introduced.

The closest comparison today would be to compare a M-Sport/Sport F30 with PPK + M Perf suspension +M Perf Exhaust to the E9x 335is. Yes, the F30 will be more expensive but then that is anyway the general trend with all BMWs for some time.

Based on what I've "read", I assume that the F30 will match the E9x 335is in almost all aspects except steering which is kinda disappointing but then as a consolation, you do gain in many other non-performance related aspects like better cup holders, rear view camera, more space, better mpg, HUD which is awesome, and actually quite a lot much more in gizmos and features.
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      07-07-2013, 03:57 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
The E9x 335is should not be compared to the M sport F30, since there is no F30 335is yet introduced.

The closest comparison today would be to compare a M-Sport/Sport F30 with PPK + M Perf suspension +M Perf Exhaust to the E9x 335is. Yes, the F30 will be more expensive but then that is anyway the general trend with all BMWs for some time.

Based on what I've "read", I assume that the F30 will match the E9x 335is in almost all aspects except steering which is kinda disappointing but then as a consolation, you do gain in many other non-performance related aspects like better cup holders, rear view camera, more space, better mpg, HUD which is awesome, and actually quite a lot much more in gizmos and features.
Canada's '14 MPerformance 335 MSRPs for I think $61-64k, it is very much a similar concept to what the E92 IS or even what the E46 ZHP was.

My hope is that if it does well, it finds it's way here. It would be a good candidate to go head to head with the Audi S4.
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      07-07-2013, 04:33 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
If you had driven BMW's like myself for more then a decade and had more experience behind a E9x or E46 models you might have understood what I am talking about a bit more.
You said you believe F30 owners' preference for their F30's feel is due to "purchase based bias blinders." With your more-than-a-decade experience driving BMWs other than the F30, can you admit to yourself that you too might have some purchase based bias blinders? All I can tell is that having never driven a BMW before, the E90 was dull and the F30 was exciting. There's no bias there, no preconceived notion of what a BMW should be. Who best to compare the two cars?



Quote:
Some of the main issues come from it feeling a bit more soft core specially when it comes to steering feel and feed back.
I do understand that people prefer the E90 steering feel, but for me personally that's about 5% of what a car is worth - the engine, transmission and handling are a whole lot more important.

Quote:
The inline-4 turbo sounds a bit more crude specially at start up and at idle. It is also not as free revving and silky smooth. The noises it makes leaves a bit to be desired. Also, I find the interior plastic a bit cheaper feeling.
The dang engine is so quiet that it's essentially silent to me in the cabin with the windows up at start up and at idle. The only people that hear it are people outside the car and frankly I don't care what they think of the sound. I also come from a long line of 4 cylinder sports cars (S2000, 944, Integra GSR, CBR600RR) so neither the 4 cylinder specific sound nor the NVH are a bother to me.

That's a case, I think, of the car being different but not inferior, however having decades of experience driving BMWs means that that difference is by default inferior to you.

Funny enough, if you find somebody with more than TWO decades of BMW experience, you might find somebody who used to own an E30 M3, last produced 21 years ago in 1992 as far as I know. Which incidentally had a four-cylinder engine - so go back far enough and we come full circle to the F30 328i's four-cylinder being more of a "true" BMW engine.

Regarding the interior, I was immediately put off by the E90 when I sat in it. It looked like a sea of cheap plastic to me - specifically the top and front of the dash. It looks plain and boring. I still get that feeling when I see pics of that interior.

Quote:
However, I can understand why you would prefer the F30 328i over E90 328i. The power and overall performance of the inline-4 turbo makes a compelling argument for itself. The MPG improvement is another plus with improved transmission offering of 8-speed. A lil more room in rear.
Agreed.

Quote:
However, you have to realize all those advantages are not found in the F30 335i except for a lil more room in the rear. Other then that lil room the E9x 335is is far superior in driving dynamics and performance compared to the F F30 335i M sport.

So when I am talking I am not just talking of 328i offering but rather talking about as a whole F30 328i/335i.
For what its worth I never considered a 335i. My budget was $40k, and while the CA had me drive a CPO E90 335i when I drove the F30 328i and I could certainly feel the extra horsepower of the 3.0 engine, it wasn't faster enough to overcome the advantages (to me) of a new car which is fast enough to be fun, plus handles really well and looks better inside and out.

Having taken the F30 canyon carving in the Colorado Rockies I can attest that it lives up to being a fun to drive car.
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      07-07-2013, 04:39 PM   #231
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It is completely fair to compare an out going E92 335is with all new F30 335i. Much like it would be to compare E46 330i ppk (ZHP) to all new then E9x 335i. You have to be kidding me when you say not to compare them. An all new generation cars best example can't be compared to a previous generations best example while both are being offered for sale simultaneously. On top of that the previous generation car is not only superior but also cheaper. The gas mileage advantage is almost negligible between a E92 335i vs F30 335i.


Also, It is for reason they say do not Assume. Because F30 335i M sport would get its behind handed to it in a head to head comparison of performance on track or off track against the E92 335is.

Even though the useless gizmos matters not so much to me compared to the performance and driving feel. Lets talk about them. The so called gizmos that you claim give F30 335i some sort of superiority do not come for free. The new F30 335i does not offer anything standard over the standard gizmos you can have in a 2013 E92. In fact you can probably get most everything offered in 2013 F30 on 2013 E92 for cheaper. As dealers are more willing to make better deals on 2013 E92/E93. That is despite the fact that traditionally coupes are more expensive then sedans.

Only advantage I find the F30 platform offer is a slight bit more rear seat room at the expense of cheaper feeling plastic used every where on dash and interior.

2013 E92 335is over 2013 335i any day. My question is what has BMW been doing for 7 years when the all new car does not offer any break through in performance over the 2013 version of an older generation car. At least give that poor F30 335i some power upgrade and modify the software of that crappy electric steering wheel. Otherwise at least give all those use less gizmos for free to unload that same ol stale package wrapped in newer body style.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
The E9x 335is should not be compared to the M sport F30, since there is no F30 335is yet introduced.

The closest comparison today would be to compare a M-Sport/Sport F30 with PPK + M Perf suspension +M Perf Exhaust to the E9x 335is. Yes, the F30 will be more expensive but then that is anyway the general trend with all BMWs for some time.

Based on what I've "read", I assume that the F30 will match the E9x 335is in almost all aspects except steering which is kinda disappointing but then as a consolation, you do gain in many other non-performance related aspects like better cup holders, rear view camera, more space, better mpg, HUD which is awesome, and actually quite a lot much more in gizmos and features.
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      07-07-2013, 04:47 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post

Also, It is for reason they say do not Assume. Because F30 335i M sport would get its behind handed to it in a head to head comparison of performance on track or off track against the E92 335is.
Your opinion, or should we go with actual testing? (note, this is a Sport w/optional 19's, lacking the better brake pads of the MSport).



3:13.2



3:13.8

So again, there is opinion and fact.

The older car, with a higher state of factory tune, a higher as tested price, and other more sporting bits befitting the higher spec model was out performed on a track. The E92 also had the higher performing 7spd DCT clutchless manu/auto vs the traditional 8spd tq converter auto of the F30. Where was the mention of that terrible steering in the F30 you keep going on about, you would think a driver on a road course would curse it from the first turn.
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      07-07-2013, 04:57 PM   #233
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Get a another hobby Viggo Mortensen
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      07-07-2013, 05:00 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by normandy7 View Post
Get a another hobby Viggo Mortensen
You first :P

I am where I belong. Cars have been my hobby since I was 5.

I don't go around to other venues hoping everyone wants to hear my damn opinions.
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      07-07-2013, 05:08 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post


3:13.2
Interesting comments about the F30 right there at the beginning.

Quote:
This is one of the most natural feeling, athletic sedans on the market and really at this event, I mean you get into it and it feels small and light and agile and everything that a BMW is supposed to be. Although BMW may build electric cars and do goofy GPS systems and madden us with annoying controls, as long as they build a 3 series that is this good and this comfortable on a track we'll forgive them for everything else.
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      07-07-2013, 05:24 PM   #236
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Think this came up on another thread a while back,but looks like a 335i coupe did VIR in Feb 2007 in 3:10.5 Don't know how much of a weight difference there was between coupe and sedan, but suspect the coupe had a MT.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...2-class-page-4
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      07-07-2013, 05:46 PM   #237
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Get a another hobby Viggo Mortensen
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      07-07-2013, 05:49 PM   #238
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You keep spouting these opinions and trying to pass them off as fact. You are loosing credibility every post! (not that you had much to start with.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
It is completely fair to compare an out going E92 335is with all new F30 335i. Much like it would be to compare E46 330i ppk (ZHP) to all new then E9x 335i. You have to be kidding me when you say not to compare them. An all new generation cars best example can't be compared to a previous generations best example while both are being offered for sale simultaneously. On top of that the previous generation car is not only superior but also cheaper. The gas mileage advantage is almost negligible between a E92 335i vs F30 335i.


Also, It is for reason they say do not Assume. Because F30 335i M sport would get its behind handed to it in a head to head comparison of performance on track or off track against the E92 335is.

Even though the useless gizmos matters not so much to me compared to the performance and driving feel. Lets talk about them. The so called gizmos that you claim give F30 335i some sort of superiority do not come for free. The new F30 335i does not offer anything standard over the standard gizmos you can have in a 2013 E92. In fact you can probably get most everything offered in 2013 F30 on 2013 E92 for cheaper. As dealers are more willing to make better deals on 2013 E92/E93. That is despite the fact that traditionally coupes are more expensive then sedans.

Only advantage I find the F30 platform offer is a slight bit more rear seat room at the expense of cheaper feeling plastic used every where on dash and interior.

2013 E92 335is over 2013 335i any day. My question is what has BMW been doing for 7 years when the all new car does not offer any break through in performance over the 2013 version of an older generation car. At least give that poor F30 335i some power upgrade and modify the software of that crappy electric steering wheel. Otherwise at least give all those use less gizmos for free to unload that same ol stale package wrapped in newer body style.
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      07-07-2013, 06:12 PM   #239
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JV you answered my questions. You spend way to much online defending your car online. JV I am not on here writing paging writing about my m3. If you think its overpriced and not a worthy car I could care less. The fact you write books upon books defending a 328 doesn't seem a bit odd to you ?

Ill go enjoy my m3 and enjoy your entry-level luxury sedan and let's call it a day.

E90 m-sport packaged car is just night and day difference. This was a plain non-sport e90 and it still won the battle as a drivers car. What is there left to argue. Put an is or m sport e9x 328 or 335 and who in their right mind would say the f30 is a better drivers car?

Oh yes-JV but besides him who?
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      07-07-2013, 06:31 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
Think this came up on another thread a while back,but looks like a 335i coupe did VIR in Feb 2007 in 3:10.5 Don't know how much of a weight difference there was between coupe and sedan, but suspect the coupe had a MT.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...2-class-page-4

Yeah, I noticed that.

I mean in '07 we are still talking E92 on 19" wheels with an N54 and the '11 car is still an E92 on 19" wheels with the fast shifting DCT and higher tune N54. Why was the '07 faster, dunno. Could be weather, driver, extra strong example. But that line of reasoning can negate half the arguments we are having right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longwong View Post
JV you answered my questions. You spend way to much online defending your car online. JV I am not on here writing paging writing about my m3. If you think its overpriced and not a worthy car I could care less. The fact you write books upon books defending a 328 doesn't seem a bit odd to you ?

Ill go enjoy my m3 and enjoy your entry-level luxury sedan and let's call it a day.

E90 m-sport packaged car is just night and day difference. This was a plain non-sport e90 and it still won the battle as a drivers car. What is there left to argue. Put an is or m sport e9x 328 or 335 and who in their right mind would say the f30 is a better drivers car?

Oh yes-JV but besides him who?

Dude, you are all over the place.

You are the one who began the need to remind me that I have a base 3 series. Like you are the word of god, showing us the light. You keep forgetting I have TWO CARS. Half the things I say, you are assuming I mean the F30 when I am meaning the E36/7 which is an M car just like your M3, and again, based on a lower production model.

I have not driven my F30 which in no way do I say is god's gift in two weeks. Wanna no why? It's my DD I use in winter and bad weather. The E36/7 is my car of choice 9x out of 10, makes me forget the F30 exists to be honest.

My point was, if you READ, is that for you to speak high and mighty about how base and low end the 3 series is, seems to make light of the fact that your M3 is based on a low level 3 series just like it always has.

Are you one of those kids who had a SRT-4 who would get real nasty and tell you how it wasn't a Neon?

You just don't get.

In the F30 forum, there is nothing out of place for me to write about what I like and what I don't like about the car I drive. It's only obnoxious if I were to write it as perfect and ignore it's faults, but I don't. I know it's faults and then I try and correct them with aftermarket parts as best I can.

Why does that have to mean, according to YOU-I am defensive about my car or it's about me?

I am doing it in the F30 forum. Get that through your head. That is it's rightful place. YOU are the one coming into the F30 forum to tell me I am wrong, need a hobby etc. I don't come into your house and take a shit on your carpet lol.

It's a Sunday night, my wife is watching a shitty reality series, it's hot as hell out so I am too lazy to work on the house. I am going to post the shit out of this board when an asshole like you feels the need to make a car forum personal. K-thanks-bai
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      07-07-2013, 07:04 PM   #241
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Anybody in an F30 care to race? Straightline, road course, autox? Your choice... bring any mods you like. And I don't mean race back home from the store with a trunk full of groceries...
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      07-07-2013, 07:09 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Anybody in an F30 care to race? Straightline, road course, autox? Your choice... bring any mods you like. And I don't mean race back home from the store with a trunk full of groceries...
I think this would be a good race, both of you guys should be high 11/low 12 sec cars with similar bolt ons.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=829787
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