[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Ghetto2315

So what is the difference between M Adaptive Suspension and M Dynamic Damper Control on the new F8X M3/M4? Or am I an idiot??

Not only are you not an idiot, but indeed this question is burning in the minds of pretty much the entire prospective M3/M4 buying community at this very moment.

Here's what we know as far as how BMW brands the active suspension today:

F3x Series: Adaptive M Suspension
F1x Series: Dynamic Damper Control
F1x M: M Dynamic Damper Control

Now, according to the launch car ordering guide, the F8x has optional "Adaptive M Suspension" as well. So logically, the M Dynamic Damper Control terminology does not apply to the F8x. But, as you no doubt know, it did appear in some official documents from BMW released last week that were full of errors and inconsistencies. So that is likely an error too.

The bigger question here might just be: why is BMW branding the technology different for different vehicles? Does that mean that the hardware in the 3 is different from that in the 5? Probably. But exactly what is different? And, do the M counterparts borrow that hardware and merely adjust the software for the M chassis, or is the M hardware different as well?

[kenwelch]

These are two links that might help with additional information:
Video (with some technical description included at .42 seconds in):
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759602
Forum:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...7&postcount=44

[n55x3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Not only are you not an idiot, but indeed this question is burning in the minds of pretty much the entire prospective M3/M4 buying community at this very moment.

Here's what we know as far as how BMW brands the active suspension today:

F3x Series: Adaptive M Suspension
F1x Series: Dynamic Damper Control
F1x M: M Dynamic Damper Control

Now, according to the launch car ordering guide, the F8x has optional "Adaptive M Suspension" as well. So logically, the M Dynamic Damper Control terminology does not apply to the F8x. But, as you no doubt know, it did appear in some official documents from BMW released last week that were full of errors and inconsistencies. So that is likely an error too.

The bigger question here might just be: why is BMW branding the technology different for different vehicles? Does that mean that the hardware in the 3 is different from that in the 5? Probably. But exactly what is different? And, do the M counterparts borrow that hardware and merely adjust the software for the M chassis, or is the M hardware different as well?

I've been thinking about this a lot over the past week or so too as I'd like to get into a new M3.

I wonder if M Dynamic Damper Control in non adjustable by the driver (thought I saw this was standard on every F8X model). The car will still monitor the road and react to changes etc, but the driver can't explicitly define comfort vs sport. It will still get stiff when you drive it hard but it decides when and where to adjust the dampening?? While the Adaptive M Suspension will still be similar to the M DDC, the optional suspension will allow drivers to select comfort, sport, track etc??

Definitely excited to hear how these suspensions play out on the F8x line.

[W12x]

Originally Posted by Racer20

I agree. That and the Cadillac ATS are the best semi-active damping cars I've driven. I was pretty impressed with my short stint in a new 650i as well, but I didn't get it on bumpy roads. I've heard the 5 series isn't as good.

The Caddy/GM cars handle bumpy roads very well, I have driven cars with complete 2nd Gen MRC (magnetic ride control) like CTS-V and C6 Z06, and cars with complete or simplified 3rd Gen MRC like Camaro ZL1, ATS, and XTS.

The difference between MRC's Sports Mode and Touring Mode is pretty big, way more noticeable than the EDC's Soft and Sport. And the Sports Mode, once coupled with GM's PTM, is unbelievable. There is a reason why these MRC systems are on Ferraris.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by kenwelch

These are two links that might help with additional information:
Video (with some technical description included at .42 seconds in):
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759602
Forum:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...7&postcount=44

Thanks for the extra info. As I mention, the Sachs system in the E92 M3 is a bit different than the typical external solenoid based systems like The F30 has.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by n55x3

I wonder if M Dynamic Damper Control in non adjustable by the driver (thought I saw this was standard on every F8X model).

Right, that's what I was referring to above. The only piece of documentation that has mentioned the M DDC being standard (or even available at all, for that matter) for the F8x was that error-filled show-stand info released last week. So we can't trust it. It also claimed things like a 10.2" iDrive screen, 20-way power seats, and Alcantara head liner - all M5/M6 features but not M3/M4 features.

The car will still monitor the road and react to changes etc, but the driver can't explicitly define comfort vs sport. It will still get stiff when you drive it hard but it decides when and where to adjust the dampening?? While the Adaptive M Suspension will still be similar to the M DDC, the optional suspension will allow drivers to select comfort, sport, track etc??

Possibly, but not likely in my opinion. It seems to me this would be an extra investment for BMW that would be wasted on people who'd rather just have the passive suspension at that point. Plus, everywhere else the term Dynamic Dampener Control (notice the word "Control" there, btw) is used it means that the system is user-adjustable.

Definitely excited to hear how these suspensions play out on the F8x line.

I'm curious at the least. Frankly, I don't understand why BMW decided to brand the F3x system Adaptive *M* Suspension. It should have been just "Adaptive Suspension", and then the M could have been used for just the F8x. This would make it similar to the DDC vs. M DDC terminology for the 5/6 and M5/M6 respectively.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Frankly, I don't understand why BMW decided to brand the F3x system Adaptive *M* Suspension. It should have been just "Adaptive Suspension", and then the M could have been used for just the F8x..

Agreed... Or at best, "Adaptive Sport Suspension" would have made sense within the F30 lineup.

[Rinzler007]

Nice write up!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Racer20

Here's the next chapter:

First, some backgroud

Stiffer and softer aren't really that meaningful when you're talking about a whole suspension system. The reason stiffer is better is that a pair of tires (left and right or front and rear) works better when the weight on them is equal. When you transfer weight between the two, as in body roll, brake dive, or squat, you ALWAYS sacrifice grip.

All else equal, a stiffer suspension resists weight transfer better than a softer one, and less weight transfer means high total traction capacity between all 4 tires.

I fully agree on the principle that less weight transfer means more total grip, but I am a bit puzzled by the above statement.

I also understand that there is some weight transfer due to roll, dive and squat due to the Cg moving about the roll/dive/squat centers. But I have always understood that this later weight transfer is relatively minimal to the point of being negligible compared to the weight transfer caused by acceleration/traction forces. The weight transfer is what causes the roll, not the other way around (except for the small aforementioned amount).

My understanding is that, in transient mode, while the suspension is taking a set, a stiffer damper will resist (slow down) the roll process but the weight transfer still occurs. If the acceleration/traction forces are sustained long enough, the suspension eventually takes a set and at that point the damper stiffness is irrelevant to how much the car rolls and the weight transfer is still mostly dependent on the traction/acceleration forces. Same logic applies to longitudinal acceleration/traction and dive/squat. If you mean stiffer suspension through stiffer springs, yes I agree, there will be less roll, but not less weight transfer. But spring rates are not altered by variable dampers.

Thoughts?

BTW, great write-up. It was a very interesting read .

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Not only are you not an idiot, but indeed this question is burning in the minds of pretty much the entire prospective M3/M4 buying community at this very moment.

Here's what we know as far as how BMW brands the active suspension today:

F3x Series: Adaptive M Suspension
F1x Series: Dynamic Damper Control
F1x M: M Dynamic Damper Control

Now, according to the launch car ordering guide, the F8x has optional "Adaptive M Suspension" as well. So logically, the M Dynamic Damper Control terminology does not apply to the F8x. But, as you no doubt know, it did appear in some official documents from BMW released last week that were full of errors and inconsistencies. So that is likely an error too.

The bigger question here might just be: why is BMW branding the technology different for different vehicles? Does that mean that the hardware in the 3 is different from that in the 5? Probably. But exactly what is different? And, do the M counterparts borrow that hardware and merely adjust the software for the M chassis, or is the M hardware different as well?

On the F8X Canadian ordering guide, there is only one option:

"2VF Adaptive M suspension"

There is no other mention about the suspension in either the standard or optional features.

EDIT:

From the Canadian Product Planning Bulletin:

An Adaptive M Suspension is also available as optional, allowing the driver to choose between three settings to adapt to all driving conditions and preferences: COMFORT, SPORT, and SPORT+.

[mkoesel]

Yep, and that jibes with the launch car ordering information for the US as I say. Other regions too.

Though we should not read too much into the branding, it just adds that extra question of why the name is the same for the F3x and F8x while they made a distinction with the F1x 5/6 vs. F1x Ms.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

On the F8X Canadian ordering guide, there is only one option:

"2VF Adaptive M suspension"

There is no other mention about the suspension in either the standard or optional features.

EDIT:

From the Canadian Product Planning Bulletin:

[FotiosF90M5]

Originally Posted by fotios335i

Dinan springs and bump stops going on my adaptive suspension right now. I'll update how it feels later today. Hopefully.

I don't have time yet to get into it but the dinan springs and stops are more impressive than I hoped for. I think Steve dinan is just like us with cars and it shows in the product. They work perfect with the adaptive suspension or regular I would assume as well. Difference isn't night and day, just perfect. Perfect drop ( really is) and perfect change in performance. Not a ton but just right. It's like he drove it for a while, sat and thought exactly what it needs then did it. It's like someone took a scalpel and trimmed away all the fat on the f30. Immediate turn in, no float, barely any roll, great compression and rebound, the list goes on. I can't say enough. I really think he's a car Genius. Exactly what I would've done if I had the money and means. so happy. Review to come. Not only back to e90 feel just a whole lot better believe it or not. Real BMW feel.

[dirksterzel]

From the German price list for the M3 for 2VF:
"Adaptives Fahrwerk
M spezifische Ausprägung inklusive Leichtbau. Dämpfersteuerung über Fahrdynamikschalter sowie sportlicherer Fahrwerkauslegung bei gleichzeitiger Wahrung des Fahrkomforts"

Free translation:
"Adaptive Chassis
M specific characteristics including lightweight construction. Damping control with driving mode switch and a sporty suspension while keeping the driving comfort"

Marketing speach without a lot of information

EDIT: costs: € 1900

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by fotios335i

I don't have time yet to get into it but the dinan springs and stops are more impressive than I hoped for. I think Steve dinan is just like us with cars and it shows in the product. They work perfect with the adaptive suspension or regular I would assume as well. Difference isn't night and day, just perfect. Perfect drop ( really is) and perfect change in performance. Not a ton but just right. It's like he drove it for a while, sat and thought exactly what it needs then did it. It's like someone took a scalpel and trimmed away all the fat on the f30. Immediate turn in, no float, barely any roll, great compression and rebound, the list goes on. I can't say enough. I really think he's a car Genius. Exactly what I would've done if I had the money and means. so happy. Review to come. Not only back to e90 feel just a whole lot better believe it or not. Real BMW feel.

Thanks Fotios335i, that is VERY encouraging. This is the first indication I've seen on the forum that the set-up does what it's supposed to do. I'm very much looking forward to reading a full review. I'd start a new thread if I were you.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by fotios335i

I don't have time yet to get into it but the dinan springs and stops are more impressive than I hoped for. I think Steve dinan is just like us with cars and it shows in the product. They work perfect with the adaptive suspension or regular I would assume as well. Difference isn't night and day, just perfect. Perfect drop ( really is) and perfect change in performance. Not a ton but just right. It's like he drove it for a while, sat and thought exactly what it needs then did it. It's like someone took a scalpel and trimmed away all the fat on the f30. Immediate turn in, no float, barely any roll, great compression and rebound, the list goes on. I can't say enough. I really think he's a car Genius. Exactly what I would've done if I had the money and means. so happy. Review to come. Not only back to e90 feel just a whole lot better believe it or not. Real BMW feel.

Awesome...

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by DVC

Awesome...

DVC, where are you at with the install?

[DVC]

At the moment, the springs are still sitting in the box. With all the snow/ice every couple of days, I have the car high and dry (and freshly detailed) tucked away in the garage. As soon as the weather breaks for a couple of days, I will get the springs installed ASAP... the wait is killing me.
As for what shop I'll go to for the install, I haven't decided for sure yet. I've called a few places in Northern NJ - some want too much $$, one hasn't called me back. I'm hoping to find someplace good with reasonable prices to work with, as I'm sure I'll be a regular customer there over the years.

[stevehecht]

I'm fortunate, I have a certified Dinan installer a few miles down the road. It's an indie shop too!

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by fotios335i

I don't have time yet to get into it but the dinan springs and stops are more impressive than I hoped for. I think Steve dinan is just like us with cars and it shows in the product. They work perfect with the adaptive suspension or regular I would assume as well. Difference isn't night and day, just perfect. Perfect drop ( really is) and perfect change in performance. Not a ton but just right. It's like he drove it for a while, sat and thought exactly what it needs then did it. It's like someone took a scalpel and trimmed away all the fat on the f30. Immediate turn in, no float, barely any roll, great compression and rebound, the list goes on. I can't say enough. I really think he's a car Genius. Exactly what I would've done if I had the money and means. so happy. Review to come. Not only back to e90 feel just a whole lot better believe it or not. Real BMW feel.

I listened to The Smoking Tire podcast where they interviewed Steve Dinan the other day. I was impressed with his approach to his business . . . more than any other aftermarket company I'm familiar with. I'm glad you like your springs, and I don't doubt that Dinan took the time to get them right.

[BMWintoxication]

Originally Posted by DVC

Agreed... Or at best, "Adaptive Sport Suspension" would have made sense within the F30 lineup.

ZHP, DTC, EDC, and now A-S-S. woohooo!! LOL

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by DVC

At the moment, the springs are still sitting in the box. With all the snow/ice every couple of days, I have the car high anjd dry (and freshly detailed) tucked away in the garage. As soon as the weather breaks for a couple of days, I will get the springs installed ASAP... the wait is killing me.
As for what shop I'll go to for the install, I haven't decided for sure yet. I've called a few places in Northern NJ - some want too much $$, one hasn't called me back. I'm hoping to find someplace good with reasonable prices to work with, as I'm sure I'll be a regular customer there over the years.

I have done spring installs at EuroTire and Redline Speed Worx did my F30.

[antastik]

Hey Racer20, very interesting subject.
By the way, I have the adaptive suspension system on the BMW F20 and I was wondering whether it is the same as F30. More in general, as far as you know, is this system of the kind that has a dedicated ECU?
The reason for asking is that some suppliers, including Tenneco, use the term adaptive also for simplified suspension systems that have a limited electronic onboard the damper and no dedicated ECU.
Thank you very much