[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by RPM90

If I want a "sport" 3 series, then it should come fully tuned as a sport 3 series with the sport package.
Those who want a softer and more comfy 3 series or BMW can simply get the non sport version.
That way we all get what we like as a default when firing up the engine and going.

Meh, disagree. A big reason I bought the car was because I wanted the adjustable suspension. When I'm driving on GW Parkway or in most parts of DC, I leave it in Comfort, it's like driving on the surface of the moon.

My previous car (Infiniti G35S) had the sport suspension and it could, at times, be absolutely punishing on shitty city streets. I like being able to toggle modes.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Meh, disagree. A big reason I bought the car was because I wanted the adjustable suspension. When I'm driving on GW Parkway or in most parts of DC, I leave it in Comfort, it's like driving on the surface of the moon.

My previous car (Infiniti G35S) had the sport suspension and it could, at times, be absolutely punishing on shitty city streets. I like being able to toggle modes.

"Adjustable" or "adaptive" suspensions have nothing to do with "driver modes".
Adaptive suspensions have been used for years using various methods.
And on those cars the suspensions did their work without the driver needing to input. If there was a selection, the driver could select a softer or harder damping.

The G35 was never regarded as having a nicely tuned suspension such as the E46 and E90.

The current trend is more marketing fluff to sell more cars and/or to be in fashion with competitors. It's very much "monkey see, monkey do".
"driver modes" are common place such that even non performance cars have "modes", which is plain silly. But, it gives the buyer a sense of "sport" when selecting that mode.

Former BMW suspensions, especially sport variants, were highly regarded for their ability to work on different surfaces at different speeds with a seemingly innate ability to know if the driver is just cruising along or attacking some turns. Those were passive systems and they worked great.
My E46 sport suspension was much better than the sport and adaptive suspension in my first F30, and the E46 had only ONE mode, which was sport sedan.
My LCI 340i also has the adaptive dampers and it's much better tuned this time around. I highly recommend it.
Again, the adaptive dampers can easily perform outside of "driver modes".
An Msport doesn't need a "comfort" mode, and certainly not an "Eco" mode.

Why get a sport/Msport or track pack and then drive in Eco?
Silly gimmick, but then my opinion is but a fart in a wind storm of de reiguer marketing to sell cars.

[goj]

Originally Posted by the_phew

Objectively, the F3x is very impressive. In excels in any handling/performance/efficiency metric against comparable vehicles.

It is severely lacking in the subjective "driving feel" area, and not by accident. BMW obviously knows how to make communicative steering (for instance), but they choose not to. That's what makes me upset; that they can, but they don't.

I don't disagree with you, I wish the couple of degrees on center were more connected in the steering. But there is so much that makes it a good drivers car.
51/49 balance for RWD
Manual Transmission
Silky inline 6
Rear axle position that is superb (ties into the balance on the you can really control the rear end nicely with throttle approaching the limit)
And on the LCI, the adaptive suspension, that's all I have significant experience with.

It's easy to point out the steering and say it's disconnected, again I too wish it was improved more but when you deep dive into it, even if it's not the best "drivers car" in the class it's still a damn good one

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by the_phew

The new Camaro is a marvel. Steering, exhaust, manual transmission action, throttle, chassis feedback; all of these things are tuned for driving engagement, and yet it manages to have a more comfortable/planted ride than the F30. And the interior tech/luxury surpasses the F30 (ventilated seats, better HUD, available perforated two-tone leather, etc) and is nearly on par with the F80.

I just wish they could package all that goodness in a car with four doors, actual windows, a back seat, and a trunk. The current Chevy SS is almost there, but it looks like a rental Malibu and is based on the older Zeta platform. The ATS is also close, but they whiffed on the gauge cluster, powertrain combos, CUE, and the backseat.

At the turn of the millenium, GM made overweight sleds with solid plastic interiors, and BMW made the Ultimate Driving Machine. Now BMW makes a better Buick than Buick, and GM makes a better BMW than BMW.

I couldn't have written this better myself...I completely agree!

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Meh, disagree. A big reason I bought the car was because I wanted the adjustable suspension. When I'm driving on GW Parkway or in most parts of DC, I leave it in Comfort, it's like driving on the surface of the moon.

My previous car (Infiniti G35S) had the sport suspension and it could, at times, be absolutely punishing on shitty city streets. I like being able to toggle modes.

Let's don't kid ourselves (I have basically the exact care you have (except 6MT) with DHP)...toggling modes between Comfort and Sport is about as imperceptible as they come regarding suspension harshness. I've worked and worked numerous times over multiple road surfaces while switching modes to identify, without question, the "softness" of Comfort vs. the "firmness" of Sport, and have yet to be wowed.

I think some of that has to do with the "adaptive" aspect of DHP (that regardless of "mode" it is adapting), but it's not the great ride panacea that one might assume.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by InControl

Size is a big factor why the e9x is a bwtter handler over f3x. Keep in mind bmw is coming out with a 2 series touring, 4 door version, rwd, and upgraded 4 and 6 pots with lightly reduced weight should drive better than a 4 door camaro, and definitely will fewl more upscale. They gotta do something with the tail lights and rear proportions.

The F30 is only 4" longer than the E90 and weight is nearly identical. The difference is that the E90 rode poorly so BMW softened the chassis. But the true issue is the lifeless EPS.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by RPM90

"Adjustable" or "adaptive" suspensions have nothing to do with "driver modes".
Adaptive suspensions have been used for years using various methods.
And on those cars the suspensions did their work without the driver needing to input. If there was a selection, the driver could select a softer or harder damping.

The G35 was never regarded as having a nicely tuned suspension such as the E46 and E90.

It's won several comparison competitions vs. the 335i E90 especially early on in it's life cycle (talking about the V36 generation).

The current trend is more marketing fluff to sell more cars and/or to be in fashion with competitors. It's very much "monkey see, monkey do".
"driver modes" are common place such that even non performance cars have "modes", which is plain silly. But, it gives the buyer a sense of "sport" when selecting that mode.

I suppose all it does is change throttle response, steering weight, and if you have an AT, shift patterns. It's not that big of a deal IMO.

Former BMW suspensions, especially sport variants, were highly regarded for their ability to work on different surfaces at different speeds with a seemingly innate ability to know if the driver is just cruising along or attacking some turns. Those were passive systems and they worked great.
My E46 sport suspension was much better than the sport and adaptive suspension in my first F30, and the E46 had only ONE mode, which was sport sedan.
My LCI 340i also has the adaptive dampers and it's much better tuned this time around. I highly recommend it.
Again, the adaptive dampers can easily perform outside of "driver modes".
An Msport doesn't need a "comfort" mode, and certainly not an "Eco" mode.

Why get a sport/Msport or track pack and then drive in Eco?

That's true, again it doesn't really bother me as much as I don't really care but to each his own.

I drive in Eco everyday, when I'm sitting in traffic I throw it in Eco. I could drive just as economically myself if I tried, but I don't care to try so I just have the car do it for me.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

Let's don't kid ourselves (I have basically the exact care you have (except 6MT) with DHP)...toggling modes between Comfort and Sport is about as imperceptible as they come regarding suspension harshness. I've worked and worked numerous times over multiple road surfaces while switching modes to identify, without question, the "softness" of Comfort vs. the "firmness" of Sport, and have yet to be wowed.

I think some of that has to do with the "adaptive" aspect of DHP (that regardless of "mode" it is adapting), but it's not the great ride panacea that one might assume.

I can feel the difference, it's not night and day, but it's there. Hell even in Sport mode, the car is still not as jarring as my G was.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by st3v

Cons would include visibility. I was always afraid I would hit a car changing lanes.

It does force you to set up your mirrors correctly, remembering that somewhere around 98% of people think they should be able to see the rear of their car in their SIDE mirrors. You adapt, but setting up the mirrors correctly is critical in this car (vs. other ones where you can get away with stetting them up like most people do). Otherwise, you become hyper-careful when backing up and maneuvering in the parking lot, but going slow there was never a problem for me. Probably the best place to go slow anyway.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

Let's don't kid ourselves (I have basically the exact care you have (except 6MT) with DHP)...toggling modes between Comfort and Sport is about as imperceptible as they come regarding suspension harshness. I've worked and worked numerous times over multiple road surfaces while switching modes to identify, without question, the "softness" of Comfort vs. the "firmness" of Sport, and have yet to be wowed.

I think some of that has to do with the "adaptive" aspect of DHP (that regardless of "mode" it is adapting), but it's not the great ride panacea that one might assume.

I notice a big difference, although I'm pretty sensitive to suspension. I also noticed a few things: At first, in the first few weeks, there wasn't a big difference and it seemed the shocks were breaking in (bushings, shim flex, etc). As time went on, it was more discernible (in the first few days/weeks). When I switched out the god-awful run-flats, it was even more discernible.

Of course, with less travel-to-wheelsize ratio, my Camaro SS felt a lot better, it wasn't that the car was "softer" going over bumps, but the shocks were better and absorbed stuff better. Hard to explain, but anyone who is familiar with suspension knows that 4" of quality suspension beats 6" of crap suspension. The SS was much better quality than my current BMW, and at high speeds in the rough, it was composed and didn't get thrown around (damping rates). IMO, GM knows what they are doing with chassis and suspension. BMW? They are kind of confused. We'll see how my new swaybars work out tomorrow

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by chaudhrysn

I actually didn't enjoy the mustang GT as much as the Camaro. It felt cheaper inside and out but I don't remember if it was the base or premium GT.

In the end, it just comes down to how much you really enjoy the car. I had a blast driving the Camaro. But my 335 puts a smile on my face every time I start her up and drive, so I don't see myself switching for the time being.

I drove a new GT with track pack. Looked great and I really liked the steering actually. I thought it was a bargain. Hard not to dream of a GT350

[jgoens]

Sounds like a few people need to go trade in their BMW's for a Camaro. Don't see how it makes any sense comparing a muscle car to a sports sedan. And a 600 hp car compared to a 300 hp? A review of a car is good as a general impression of a vehicle out there, but a compare from a different category, I don't get it. Why not compare a Porsche Cayenne to a 340 while were at it.

[MO_23]

I would never trade in my 435i for an american car, the looks and exclusivity do it for me.. However i have been considering the new Corvette.. Its such a nice car with great reviews as well. These cars aren't truly american anymore anyways, new mustang looks very "german" as a lot of my muscle car lover friends have put it.

Ive never been a fan of the 3 series or the Camaro or any american car but ive always loved the Chevy Vette, especially the new one. Just has an old man vibe to it tho - maybe cuz every corvette around here is driven by ppl 50+.

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by jgoens

Sounds like a few people need to go trade in their BMW's for a Camaro. Don't see how it makes any sense comparing a muscle car to a sports sedan. And a 600 hp car compared to a 300 hp? A review of a car is good as a general impression of a vehicle out there, but a compare from a different category, I don't get it. Why not compare a Porsche Cayenne to a 340 while were at it.

Forums like this are "generally" filled with enthusiasts, so posts about performance cars are to be expected (though I concur a Camaro comparison to F30 3 series sedans is more than a stretch).

I for one am no respecter of brands...and appreciate posts with respect to other performance oriented cars, especially those that have nailed the driving formula, which by all accounts GM is achieving while BMW is abandoning (save for maybe the M2 and the M4 GTS).

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by MO_23

I would never trade in my 435i for an american car, the looks and exclusivity do it for me.. However i have been considering the new Corvette.. Its such a nice car with great reviews as well. These cars aren't truly american anymore anyways, new mustang looks very "german" as a lot of my muscle car lover friends have put it.

Ive never been a fan of the 3 series or the Camaro or any american car but ive always loved the Chevy Vette, especially the new one. Just has an old man vibe to it tho - maybe cuz every corvette around here is driven by ppl 50+.

^ This post just made me dizzy...

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by MO_23

These cars aren't truly american anymore anyways...

I don't even know what this means...but regardless, I get that the recent history of most American manufacturers leaves a bit to be desired, but you almost act like you're glad that it isn't supposedly American, and that's a reason you would buy it....and you're from New York?

[MO_23]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

I don't even know what this means...but regardless, I get that the recent history of most American manufacturers leaves a bit to be desired, but you almost act like you're glad that it isn't supposedly American, and that's a reason you would buy it....and you're from New York?

So if I'm from NY i have to love American cars? lol okay i guess

If you keep reading on it meant looks wise. I have colleagues who are die hard muscle car lovers and hate the new mustang and camaro look. I did say right after "new mustang looks very "german" as a lot of my muscle car lover friends have put it."

I apologize if it came off if I'm going to only buy the corvette cuz it doesnt look american..didn't mean for it to come off that way. Always have loved every generation of the vette - just has a "old mans car" vibe to it.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by MO_23

I would never trade in my 435i for an american car, the looks and exclusivity do it for me.. However i have been considering the new Corvette.. Its such a nice car with great reviews as well. These cars aren't truly american anymore anyways, new mustang looks very "german" as a lot of my muscle car lover friends have put it.

Ive never been a fan of the 3 series or the Camaro or any american car but ive always loved the Chevy Vette, especially the new one. Just has an old man vibe to it tho - maybe cuz every corvette around here is driven by ppl 50+.

Wat?

How the hell does it look German and why is German in quotes? And how can you say you're not a fan of the 3 Series when you pretty much are driving a two door 3 Series?

[snowghost]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Some of you seem to think that BMW should provide as much power as these sports car just because they are BMW and cost more.

When I got my first BMW it was a 2003 325i 6spd sport.
It has something like 187hp. It less than the 2000 Mits Eclipse I had just sold, which rated at 200-205hp. Even my 1990 Laser/Eclipse turbo came with 190hp stock and had a good deal more after I upgraded the turbo, boost, and exhaust.

There have always been cars with more power than a higher cost BMW.
It wasn't until the first 3.0 twin turbo that BMW finally built a non M 3 series that had a very good amount of power, and could actually keep up with some much lower cost sports cars, like the previous gen Mustang and Camaro.

But, that's not what a 3 or even 4 series is about. It's about balance between power, handling, refinement, and to some extent near luxury.
BMW hasn't dropped the ball because other cars offer more power for less money, because that has been true for a very long time.
The problem with BMW is they lost their edge in the steering, handling and ride areas.

The suspension balance that BMW used to achieve used to be the envy of other car makers. BMW could make a true SPORT sedan feel like it was a 2 door sports car.
And that famous steering was sublime, telepathic with plenty of road and tire feel without reporting too much to distract the driver from a longer less busy ride.
The sport suspensions were/are compliant for daily use, but when pushed they held firm and level.

Unfortunately, much of that was lost when BMW created the F30. This was the 3 series that became the platinum selling album however as it was the most commercial 3/4 series BMW has made. They wanted higher sales volume and the F30 gave that to them. The softening of the 3/4 brought more buyers, but left the enthusiasts disheartened.
Luckily the LCI has addressed the steering and suspension as those areas are noticeably better than pre LCI. Still, BMW has work to do to get back to where there was magic in driving a BMW sport sedan.

Some say it's the size, but I disagree. When I had my E90 3 series during the same time period the 5 and 7 were still great driving and handling cars as well equipped in sport trim. I want a 2 series sized sedan, but that's because the 3/4 has become just a bit too big. Still, a 2 series based sport sedan should be a great driving car, but that should be no reason to not have a great driving 3/4 series as well.
Right now the F30 is sized at the limit imo. The next one should work on losing weight, and improving, and returning the steering feel, accuracy, firm control along with compliant ride. And lose all the dam push button "modes".
If I want a "comfort" 3 series, then I wouldn't get an Msport or track package.
If I want a "sport" 3 series, then it should come fully tuned as a sport 3 series with the sport package.
Those who want a softer and more comfy 3 series or BMW can simply get the non sport version.
That way we all get what we like as a default when firing up the engine and going.

That's funny man. I had a Mitsubishi Turbo Eclipse and then an E39 530i and 2002 E46 325i before an E46 M3 6MT. I agree with pretty much all the above.

The F30 335i M Sport with Adaptive Suspension is a good start. I added Dinan springs and Shockware. That combination makes me not miss the M3 so much. Handles very flat in curves and the suspension flexibility, Comfort or Sport is a nice touch.

[jgoens]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Wat?

How the hell does it look German and why is German in quotes? And how can you say you're not a fan of the 3 Series when you pretty much are driving a two door 3 Series?

+1

[CalCarNut]

I got lost after the Corvette and 'these cars' don't look 'American' anymore...I think I lost consciousness or fell asleep or brain exploded somewhere around there.

[dcastx]

is everyone forgetting about the quality of components? ford uses zip ties in the design of their shift backets for crying out