[Golden Arrow]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

The E90 was kicking the newer A4's butt even in it's last year. And the C class never had a chance. The F30 was soft to start with and barely won comparos due to it's overall utility. If the ATS used better interior materials and had the drivetrains better sorted it would have destroyed the F30 in those initial comparison tests.

That was 2011. Different market, different cars.

CUE has been a problem for Cadillac/GM since day one. Android Auto and Apple Car Play will help when they debut.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Golden Arrow

That was 2011. Different market, different cars.

CUE has been a problem for Cadillac/GM since day one. Android Auto and Apple Car Play will help when they debut.

We are talking about driving dynamics. The E90 even to the end was better than it's competitors. The market is not different. It's BMW who has aimed the F30 for a different market and the result is a car that loses tests in the enthusiast mags. Yet they still use the Ultimate Driving Machine tag.

I don't mean to characterize the F30 as a bad car, it's not. It just is no longer the enthusiast's top choice. And that is a real shame.

[Golden Arrow]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

We are talking about driving dynamics. The E90 even to the end was better than it's competitors. The market is not different. It's BMW who has aimed the F30 for a different market and the result is a car that loses tests in the enthusiast mags. Yet they still use the Ultimate Driving Machine tag.

I don't mean to characterize the F30 as a bad car, it's not. It just is no longer the enthusiast's top choice. And that is a real shame.

I agree, it is a shame. Thankfully, we have the 2-series...for now.

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by Thumper333

Ugly duckling? Man, it looks drop dead gorgeous to me.

And what about the REAR (which is what everyone will be seeing anyway LOL)




This car looks just MEAN, like a Pulp era jet fighter or high tech Howard Stark inspired 'future car'.

Reliable enough to lease with full warranty. I wouldn't want to OWN one, that's for sure.

BBBBOOOORRRIIIINNNGGGGGGG

There is no shortage of "fast" saloon's over here, the pool is crowded with their standardized shapes and offerings. For most the choice comes to a coin toss or a brand image loyalty. If I am spending that much money on a car I want to stand OUT, not blend with the crowd of gray 4 doors. The Alfa, and to a lessor extent the Jag, break free of this mold by being vast departures from the norm. The RS4 would be AWD and that sets it apart from the other offerings, but the Alfa is supposed to have AWD too........

They need to give us the Avants. I already told my dealer I was on the books for a RS3 Sportback, but if they only give us American's the lame sedan, I'm jumping ship to the Alfa or maybe the Jag. If they gave us the RS4 Avant I would snap one up in a heartbeat but I know there's no CHANCE of an Avant over here, the Sportback would be the best we could do.

I get why they don't sell the standard wagons over here, they won't sell to the brain washed masses. but the RS cars are already small sales number cars....the only people buying an RS are enthusiasts anyway, and enthusiasts are the biggest block of people screaming for Avants. So who cares if you only sell 500 of them...you were only going to sell 500 ANYWAY.

Well, it's not just the volume, it's the regulatory compliance upgrades to the engineering that keeps them from building Avants here. Plus, the company is invested in SUVs for the U.S. Market. They're chasing the money since the crossover design is already developed and sells well.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I don't mean to characterize the F30 as a bad car, it's not. It just is no longer the enthusiast's top choice. And that is a real shame.

I get that BMW has made the F30 softer for a broader market, but can't you order packages and options that put it a league for enthusiasts? I'm not in disagreement; I truly do not know since I have never driven F30 competitors from Audi, MB, Cadillac, etc. Are enthusiasts really leaving BMW for those companies or are they just ordering their cars with the right packages and options?

Here's my question: What is the enthusiasts' top choice? If it's not BMW, then who?

[F30Drive]

Jaguar styling is brutal!

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

I get that BMW has made the F30 softer for a broader market, but can't you order packages and options that put it a league for enthusiasts? I'm not in disagreement; I truly do not know since I have never driven F30 competitors from Audi, MB, Cadillac, etc. Are enthusiasts really leaving BMW for those companies or are they just ordering their cars with the right packages and options?

Here's my question: What is the enthusiasts' top choice? If it's not BMW, then who?

The distinguishing option would be the sport or Msport package, which includes the sport suspension that lowers the car, along with sport seats to hold you better in the turns, and the sport AT option if you go with MT, and the better summer sport tires.
Above that would be getting the M adaptive suspension, but there hasn't been definitive testing on whether the adaptive suspension in sport mode makes for better handling than the M adaptive.

The 328i sport/Msport has a slight advantage in handling due to lower weight up front giving a lighter and quicker transitional handling.
The 335i sport/Msport has the power advantage at the expense of a bit more weight up front.
Both variants with sport/Msport would be the enthusiast choice, imo.

I've driven the S4 and overall I think it's tighter in handling with the optional LSD and has a bit more feel at the steering wheel. The DSG is fantastic and very responsive as is the ZF 8spd AT. There is a quicker throttle response with the S4 as it's supercharged, but the BMW 3.0 turbo has extremely little lag to nearly none. But in back to back drives you do notice the S4's immediacy.

Loading up a 335i comparable to an S4 puts the prices very close.
If the leasing had been better on the S4 I would probably have chose it over my 335i. I'm hoping the 340i swings that back towards the 3 series because I'll be ordering a 340i in the next few days.
But, Audi has a new A4/S4 platform coming soon too.

I haven't driven the ATS. For me MB doesn't hold an appeal.
The new Jag does as well as the new Alfa. In 3 years I'll be back in the market and BMW should have a new platform 3 by then, and I'll have had test drives in the Jag and likely the Alfa and Audi. That time frame will be more interesting for me.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

....
And Jags are notoriously unreliable with low resale values.

That's a question that lingers and lingers. How reliable will it be? Designed by automotive geniuses but built by burly blokes back from a weekend bender who think anyone making more than £40,000 is a rich, pompous snob who deserves to have his car towed to the dealer by a guy named Rory whose tried every flavour of crisps known to mankind

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by RPM90

The distinguishing option would be the sport or Msport package, which includes the sport suspension that lowers the car, along with sport seats to hold you better in the turns, and the sport AT option if you go with MT, and the better summer sport tires.
Above that would be getting the M adaptive suspension, but there hasn't been definitive testing on whether the adaptive suspension in sport mode makes for better handling than the M adaptive.

The 328i sport/Msport has a slight advantage in handling due to lower weight up front giving a lighter and quicker transitional handling.
The 335i sport/Msport has the power advantage at the expense of a bit more weight up front.
Both variants with sport/Msport would be the enthusiast choice, imo.

I've driven the S4 and overall I think it's tighter in handling with the optional LSD and has a bit more feel at the steering wheel. The DSG is fantastic and very responsive as is the ZF 8spd AT. There is a quicker throttle response with the S4 as it's supercharged, but the BMW 3.0 turbo has extremely little lag to nearly none. But in back to back drives you do notice the S4's immediacy.

Loading up a 335i comparable to an S4 puts the prices very close.
If the leasing had been better on the S4 I would probably have chose it over my 335i. I'm hoping the 340i swings that back towards the 3 series because I'll be ordering a 340i in the next few days.
But, Audi has a new A4/S4 platform coming soon too.

I haven't driven the ATS. For me MB doesn't hold an appeal.
The new Jag does as well as the new Alfa. In 3 years I'll be back in the market and BMW should have a new platform 3 by then, and I'll have had test drives in the Jag and likely the Alfa and Audi. That time frame will be more interesting for me.

That's my point. I read the reviews and the comments on the F30 before I bought mine. Based on this information I ordered the trim, packages, and options that were important to me as an enthusiast just like you mentioned in your post. Sure, you can get a wallowing, soft F30. But you can also get a darn fine car that scratches my enthusiast itch each day I drive it.

For some enthusiasts the F30 regardless of options is not enough. For those drivers BMW offers the M235 or an M3 or M4. So, there is something in the BMW lineup for most every taste.

Somebody said its sad that the F30 is no longer enthusiasts' top choice. What has replaced it? What car are BMW owners leaving the brand to buy?

[BimmerBoomer]

The new Jag, the new Alfa, the announced Mercedes C450 and new S4/S5s in the offing. All of this points to the need for a more focused car between the 3 series and the M3. Maybe just a M440i if BMW is having success with the GC body?

[captainaudio]

The segment is getting larger and the 3 Series may remain a benchmark and a sales leader but will probably not dominate the segment to the extent that it did in the past.

I suspect that the Alfa will be a rarely seen niche car and that the Jaguar will sell quite well and be a success for Jaguar and that as the size of the segment increases 3 Series sales will continue to increase.

Cadillac will likely refine the ATS and their sales will increase as well.

[visualguy]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I've driven the S4 and overall I think it's tighter in handling with the optional LSD and has a bit more feel at the steering wheel. The DSG is fantastic and very responsive as is the ZF 8spd AT. There is a quicker throttle response with the S4 as it's supercharged, but the BMW 3.0 turbo has extremely little lag to nearly none. But in back to back drives you do notice the S4's immediacy.

Loading up a 335i comparable to an S4 puts the prices very close.
If the leasing had been better on the S4 I would probably have chose it over my 335i. I'm hoping the 340i swings that back towards the 3 series because I'll be ordering a 340i in the next few days.
But, Audi has a new A4/S4 platform coming soon too.

The 340i won't give you similar handling to the S4 with the torque vectoring diff... However, do you really need it on the 340i? The problem with the S4 is that it understeers too much in corners. You have to enter the corner slow, and then get on the throttle to make the diff rotate the car. This doesn't work all that well when going downhill because there isn't much throttle opportunity. You really feel the heavy front push in corners, and I hate that. There is none of that on my Cayman, which is wonderful. Not sure where the 335i/340i are in terms of understeer.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

I get that BMW has made the F30 softer for a broader market, but can't you order packages and options that put it a league for enthusiasts? I'm not in disagreement; I truly do not know since I have never driven F30 competitors from Audi, MB, Cadillac, etc. Are enthusiasts really leaving BMW for those companies or are they just ordering their cars with the right packages and options?

Here's my question: What is the enthusiasts' top choice? If it's not BMW, then who?

My F30 328i has MT and Sport line which is about as sporty as it gets. It still lacks the driving dynamics of my previous 2011 328i non-Sport. The main issue is the EPS system. Even in sport mode it has little feel, especially right off of center. The E90 had amazing steering.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

That's my point. I read the reviews and the comments on the F30 before I bought mine. Based on this information I ordered the trim, packages, and options that were important to me as an enthusiast just like you mentioned in your post. Sure, you can get a wallowing, soft F30. But you can also get a darn fine car that scratches my enthusiast itch each day I drive it.

For some enthusiasts the F30 regardless of options is not enough. For those drivers BMW offers the M235 or an M3 or M4. So, there is something in the BMW lineup for most every taste.

Somebody said its sad that the F30 is no longer enthusiasts' top choice. What has replaced it? What car are BMW owners leaving the brand to buy?

This question is difficult to answer. The F30 is still the best all around car, but the ATS and apparently the XE are better enthusiast cars. If I'm in the market when my lease is up in October of 2016, I'm definitely shopping the XE if it has the new 4 cylinder engine. Also, probably the new A4.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

This question is difficult to answer. The F30 is still the best all around car, but the ATS and apparently the XE are better enthusiast cars. If I'm in the market when my lease is up in October of 2016, I'm definitely shopping the XE if it has the new 4 cylinder engine. Also, probably the new A4.

Michael, thanks for answering. It is a tough question. The ATS was praised as better than the F30 in several car reviews in terms of driving dynamics, so it seems reasonable that it is a higher top choice for driving enthusiasts. Interestingly, though, that automotive praise has not translated into success in the market for the ATS. Sales continue to be down. In fact, for the first quarter 2015, the BMW 3-series/4-series's sold 5 times more units in the US than the ATS. The ATS was last of the top 15 premium brands in the US. The A4 was not far ahead of the ATS. They were both clobbered by the BMW 3/4's first place finish in Q1 2015.

These sales figures don't mean BMW doesn't have some issues to resolve on steering and driving dynamics. Hopefully, the LCI will reduce those complaints. What the sales figures do mean is that BMW is building cars that a lot of people want to buy, including many enthusiasts (like me.) So the F3x may not be the top choice for enthusiast as you say, but it sure selling well, giving buyers most of what they want. For those enthusiasts who need more, BMW still has some nice offering such as the M235 or the M3 or M4. Of course, if an enthusiast likes the driving dynamics of the A4 or the ATS better, then based on recent low sales there should be a lot of them from which to choose. After reading posts on this forum for 2 years now, I hear a lot of talk about switching to other brands, but I don't see many posts from people who actually left for another brand and come back to let us know how great a decision it was.

I personally hope that BMW is listening and learning from the bad reviews and criticism of the steering and driving dynamics. I also hope that they are paying attention to the great strides the competition has made to close the gap. In the meantime, there still isn't another brand I would rather buy.

Here's the link to the information on Q1 2015 premium brand sales:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...lac-ats-sales/

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

My F30 328i has MT and Sport line which is about as sporty as it gets. It still lacks the driving dynamics of my previous 2011 328i non-Sport. The main issue is the EPS system. Even in sport mode it has little feel, especially right off of center. The E90 had amazing steering.

Sorry you are not happy with your steering. Clearly EPS is a different feel than hydraulic. I came from a 540 with recirculating ball so I didn't have the pleasure of owning an E90 with rack and pinion. I must say that I have no issues with the steering in my 2014 328. Now that I have installed Dinan Shockware to improve the DHP characteristic, I even find myself leaving it in comfort mode even though I know my steering will tighten up in sport mode. When I do go into sport or sport+, the steering feel and tightness is perfectly fine for me. Maybe it's because I don't have the long-term E90 steering experience from which to compare.

Hopefully there will be LCI improvements in steering that will eventually be available as software upgrades for the 2012-2016 F3x.

[bavarianride]

It is good that there are additional options in the segment, although to me it is hard to go with Jaguar as a long-term purchased car(my usual preference) given my perception of Jag's reliability is not that great. Also, there are other highly rated 3-series killers(e.g. ATS) that seem to ace most of the reviews but in real life they pale in comparison to 3-series(e.g. ATS's poor visibility), it is unclear if a Jag can break out or not.