[bovino]

This thread is a great example of how not to get help online.

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by bovino

This thread is a great example of how not to get help online.

I don't know what to say. Apparently, aspects of my personality deem me ineligible to the clauses contained within the BMW Service and Warranty Book, according to some on this forum. I thought it was utterly clear that I brought in the vehicle for service complaining or warped rotors and was told flat out and without explanation that they would not be covered "because of rust." Since I did not post the service record(s) for this issue some thought that I brought in my car complaining of rusty brakes (). From that point on, and after BMW NA's investigation, they too sided with the dealer because "the rotors were rusty." The investigation, which lasted for over a month, was ended with the same individual leaving a voicemail stating that (paraphrasing), "BMW was more than fair in this case and that the rotors were indeed not covered because of rust. Therefore, I have closed the investigation... thank you and have a great day." Upon a follow up call to the customer relations number, I was informed that I was not allowed access to details over the phone or in writing of the "investigation," and that there is nothing that can be done because the case is closed. Step forward to this new thread where I have individuals attacking my personality and intelligence, writing that water causes metal to rust and so I mustn't worry, and so on and so forth. Regardless, thanks to all who put forth an effort in discussing this with myself and the other posters on this forum.

[CIWS]

So which dealer is it in Chicago that you have been dealing with ? I noted in your letter you omitted the name.

[CLittle]

I think I understand your issue now. I mistakenly thought the brake issue you had could also be caused by excessively corroded brake discs. You are positive that the sensation is due to warped discs that can occur whether or not the discs are also rusty.

I think a fellow poster gave some great advice if this were to happen again which you already mentioned in your posts and complaints to BMW NA. That is, if the discs are only being replaced because they're rusty, that you should've been at least provided with confirmation of the disc runout and thickness to confirm that those two items were still within spec.

The takeaway for everyone else should be this. At our first brake pad replacement, we should demand to have the runout info shown on our service record vs. the minimum spec. It is most likely that the discs are just barely serviceable after the first set of pads which means at some point during our second set, the discs will be dangerously thin and will be prone to warping. At least that's my theory.

[bovino]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

I don't know what to say. Apparently, aspects of my personality deem me ineligible to the clauses contained within the BMW Service and Warranty Book, according to some on this forum.

That's the type of sentence that comes across as condescending and arrogant. It won't win you any friends and it won't yield you much help. Typing IN ALL CAPS doesn't convey your point better and is widely considered to be the Internet equivalent of shouting; it comes across as a tantrum in your posts. Lastly, the repetitive posts, over and over, show a level of agitation that gets transferred to the reader. Take a second and calm down with people you are asking for help.

I understand and empathize with you that your points weren't being understood. I've had that issue as well, but consider some of that is your presentation, as mentioned above. You can't post six times in a row and expect reading comprehension to improve.

I'm sorry this happened and I hope the rest of your car experience is better, truly. If this is how you acted with BMW, however, it's no wonder you don't have more answers.

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by CIWS

So which dealer is it in Chicago that you have been dealing with ? I noted in your letter you omitted the name.

The only one in "Chicago," bud.

[CIWS]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

The only one in "Chicago," bud.

nevermind

[AndDown]

Originally Posted by bovino

That's the type of sentence that comes across as condescending and arrogant. It won't win you any friends and it won't yield you much help. Typing IN ALL CAPS doesn't convey your point better and is widely considered to be the Internet equivalent of shouting; it comes across as a tantrum in your posts. Lastly, the repetitive posts, over and over, show a level of agitation that gets transferred to the reader. Take a second and calm down with people you are asking for help.

I understand and empathize with you that your points weren't being understood. I've had that issue as well, but consider some of that is your presentation, as mentioned above. You can't post six times in a row and expect reading comprehension to improve.

I'm sorry this happened and I hope the rest of your car experience is better, truly. If this is how you acted with BMW, however, it's no wonder you don't have more answers.

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by CLittle

I think I understand your issue now. I mistakenly thought the brake issue you had could also be caused by excessively corroded brake discs. You are positive that the sensation is due to warped discs that can occur whether or not the discs are also rusty.

I think a fellow poster gave some great advice if this were to happen again which you already mentioned in your posts and complaints to BMW NA. That is, if the discs are only being replaced because they're rusty, that you should've been at least provided with confirmation of the disc runout and thickness to confirm that those two items were still within spec.

The takeaway for everyone else should be this. At our first brake pad replacement, we should demand to have the runout info shown on our service record vs. the minimum spec. It is most likely that the discs are just barely serviceable after the first set of pads which means at some point during our second set, the discs will be dangerously thin and will be prone to warping. At least that's my theory.

Yes, my previous service records have detailed information on the thickness of the brake discs and the subsequent no-cost replacements that I was entitled to (yes, entitled, in lower case letters). Had the dealer done this, it would have most likely showed that they were indeed replaceable at no-cost. Instead, they would not do this because the rotors were deemed "rusty" from the start. The objective details of the matter are clearly stated in the complaint with my service records. I will post shortly. This dealership and BMW NA customer relations were obligated to hold up their end of the no-cost service agreement, regardless of the way in which I handled this affair. For BMW and their network of dealers, this is simply bad business. I had to have the car for a trip and needed them replaced that day- I did not have time to shop around at different dealers or repair shops because I thought BMW held each dealer to the same standards when it came to quality and business practices. This is clearly not the case.

[pjohns21]

Also, please stop trying to lecture me on how I deserved to be treated poorly because I insist, as a loyal customer and enthusiast, that BMW et al. have their sh*t together. You're wasting your time. I was over it at the point (which this thread explained to me and I am thankful for) that the boneheads at BMW NA customer relations didn't realize that I brought the car into service for excessive wheel oscillation when braking, which was highlighted (literally) in the information I mailed to them. I'm sorry I didn't consider the idea of this, as troublesome rust on a 2013 car without major body/collision work is really unheard of.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

Also, please stop trying to lecture me on how I deserved to be treated poorly because I insist, as a loyal customer and enthusiast, that BMW et al. have their sh*t together. You're wasting your time. I was over it at the point (which this thread explained to me and I am thankful for) that the boneheads at BMW NA customer relations didn't realize that I brought the car into service for excessive wheel oscillation when braking, which was highlighted (literally) in the information I mailed to them. I'm sorry I didn't consider the idea of this, as troublesome rust on a 2013 car without major body/collision work is really unheard of.

Our local dealers do not replace rusty rotors, but any warped rotor(if not showing signs of track uses), regardless of rust or otherwise, will be replaced under free maintenance(at least up to MY16). The subtle issue in this scenario is that, without a "sponsor" at the service department to bat with BMWNA, the case pretty much gets stuck at an initial diagnostics note(e.g. "rusty rotor"). On the other hand, if the SA/foreman had fought BMWNA on your behalf, the outcome could have been very different. One suggestion is to seek 2nd opinion from another dealer and see if that dealer can provide an alternate "verdict".

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Our local dealers do not replace rusty rotors, but any warped rotor(if not showing signs of track uses), regardless of rust or otherwise, will be replaced under free maintenance(at least up to MY16). The subtle issue in this scenario is that, without a "sponsor" at the service department to bat with BMWNA, the case pretty much gets stuck at an initial diagnostics note(e.g. "rusty rotor"). On the other hand, if the SA/foreman had fought BMWNA on your behalf, the outcome could have been very different. One suggestion is to seek 2nd opinion from another dealer and see if that dealer can provide an alternate "verdict".

Yes! Now we are getting somewhere. The 2nd set of pads (along with the 1st set, of course, per BMW's no-cost maintenance plan) were covered by BMW, which I thought was interesting given that they were only worn because the bad rotors weren't diagnosed correctly at the first service visit. The rear pads needed to be replaced a 2nd time in less than 5,000 miles because the rotors were indeed warped at the initial replacement of the pads and most certainly were still warped at the time of the pad replacement 5k later (sorry for the run-on sentence). The warped rotors weren't changed at the proper interval and that was the reason that the pads needed replacement again in only 5,000 miles. This means that BMW isn't paying the dealer for a 2nd repair of pads or labor charges in such a short span of time on the same vehicle. Therefore, to try to recoup some of the cost for the original mistake, they made up a line and tried to get the difference back from the customer for the money they weren't getting reimbursed for. Furthermore, if BMW NA had respectable individuals who cared about customers and knew a few things about cars working for the customer relations department, my complaint may have been resolved. However, as I stated, the individual I spoke with would not let another individual handle the matter, could not elaborate on his alleged investigation, and simply closed the case knowing that once this happened I would have no other way of attempting to get this matter resolved. The BMW representative was as kind as could be initially, but as soon as I stated that the dealer would no longer have my business, he became highly unpleasant, unprofessional, and outright retributive in his handling of this complaint. This was the reason for creating this thread- to ask if anyone knew other ways around dealership management or the gatekeepers at BMW NA Customer Relations, so that I may explain my issue to someone at BMW who may decide that I was charged unjustly by this dealership. Yes, I should have gone to another dealership. However, one must understand that there is only one family that has had the rights to the BMW dealership monopoly within the city limits for quite some time. BMW, the City of Chicago, or some other entity made it this way, and I don't know when or if this will ever change.

[bovino]

Isn't there one in the suburbs? Or is it the same dealer family? A quick google of where my uncle lived, Elmhurst, shows one there.

[pjohns21]

I finally received a respectable response with somewhat of an explanation. This is the response from the BBB complaint I sent to them:

"It was found that this customers brakes were rusty, which is outside influence. BMWNA covered 100% of the parts as a goodwill gesture."

Besides the missing apostrophe, this is much more information than I received from the dealership or the guy on the phone... Regardless, I responded by writing this:

"I am not accepting this response because [BBB verbiage, not mine]:

The service records indicate that the vehicle was brought in for service because of excessive oscillation (i.e. it felt as if the rotors were warped) at highway speeds, which I thought to be a safety hazard when braking. It was more difficult to control the vehicle because of this and slowing times felt longer. The front discs were already replaced because of this same issue, at no cost to me. The dealership did not follow protocol by measuring the thickness of discs and any variation of thickness at different points on the discs. I did not request that the rotors be replaced because of rust- I asked them to explore the excessive oscillation by driving the vehicle on the highway at 65mph to try to slow the vehicle. They did not measure the thickness of the rotors or take the vehicle on a test drive to investigate this safety concern. I have several dealers vouching that they would have replaced the rotors, if warped, at no-cost to me. However, I needed the car that day to travel out of state.

Respectfully,..."

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by bovino

Isn't there one in the suburbs? Or is it the same dealer family? A quick google of where my uncle lived, Elmhurst, shows one there.

There are several in the 'burbs, but often times it would take an hour and a half to get there in traffic. This is time I did not have at the moment, and I needed the brakes working safely before traveling on the highway.

[pjohns21]

Here are the service notes. Notice how there are no measurements of the discs, yet I have record of this on the service notes when the front rotors were replaced at no-cost. Also, they did not test drive on the highway to address my safety concerns before they began replacing the rear brakes.

[Deleted853]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

There are reasons their yelp rating is 2.5, besides the fact they wanted over $700 a month for a car that was $34k. My credit score, at the time, was 824.

Dude...if this dealer is a ripoff, drive to another one. Nobody is forcing you to use that dealer. Also, if you, having access to this board and all the information, made that terrible of a deal on a 3 series, then that is on you. You know what a good deal looks like and have board reccomendations on dealers and CA's....

Take some personal responsibility and go find another Chicagoland area dealer to do your service and warranty work...

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by Mwm1166

Dude...if this dealer is a ripoff, drive to another one. Nobody is forcing you to use that dealer. Also, if you, having access to this board and all the information, made that terrible of a deal on a 3 series, then that is on you. You know what a good deal looks like and have board reccomendations on dealers and CA's....

Take some personal responsibility and go find another Chicagoland area dealer to do your service and warranty work...

...

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by Mwm1166

Dude...if this dealer is a ripoff, drive to another one. Nobody is forcing you to use that dealer. Also, if you, having access to this board and all the information, made that terrible of a deal on a 3 series, then that is on you. You know what a good deal looks like and have board reccomendations on dealers and CA's....

Take some personal responsibility and go find another Chicagoland area dealer to do your service and warranty work...

To note- this is the type of folks we are working with here on this forum... #grainofsalt

[DHS]

Originally Posted by pjohns21

To note- this is the type of folks we are working with here on this forum... #grainofsalt

And that "type of folk" has a valid point.

[pjohns21]

Originally Posted by DHS

And that "type of folk" has a valid point.

Thanks for your help. I have purchased my BMWs from Laurel BMW of Westmont, and they are excellent in the sales department. I did not accept the lease deal from the other dealership- it was simply a starting point for my car search. As I stated earlier, I have used the other dealer for service out of convenience on a leased vehicle- if they fu*k it up it's not my problem. I didn't think I was out of bounds for driving to an authorized BMW dealer for brake service and expecting a level of quality for the amount of money it costs to buy or lease these vehicles. Also, excuse me for expecting the terms of the no-cost maintenance program to apply at said dealership.

[BavarianFanatic]

Stop riding/overheating your brakes. Brakes should never wear this quickly. "Warped" rotors are a myth. "Warped" rotors won't lead to accelerated pad wear. My vote is that you're overheating your brakes and that you've got pad deposits all over the rotors causing the vibration. Rotors that have been excessively overheated rust much more than those which haven't. I think the rationale provided by the dealer regarding rust being the cause was inaccurate. But, any signs of significant rusting are a telltale sign of overheating which, along with your absurdly rapid pad wear, are definitely indicative of "outside influences" and not indicative of a material defect or flaw.

And, as noted already by many, when ten people are confused by your comments and you need to resort to yelling in an attempt to get your point across, it's time for some inner reflection and a review of the message you've been attempting to convey. You need to remember that even though it's "simple and clear" in your own mind, we can't read your mind...