[BavarianFanatic]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Wrong. They are still the number one enthusiast mag in the US. And by the way Csere is still there just more behind the scenes as a contributing editor. C and D subscriptions are 20% higher than MT and way higher than R & T who are not even listed in the top 100.

Popularity <> quality

I assume you're somehow connected based on your locale. Sorry if I've offended you. I simply lost interest after the changes. The quality of writing has slipped and it's very apparent that results are biased based on irrational preconceptions - i.e. all of the belly aching about how the F30 isn't as good as the E90. The E90 has been gone for 5 years now. It's time to move on.

[DDD31]

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

Popularity <> quality

I assume you're somehow connected based on your locale. Sorry if I've offended you. I simply lost interest after the changes. The quality of writing has slipped and it's very apparent that results are biased based on irrational preconceptions - i.e. all of the belly aching about how the F30 isn't as good as the E90. The E90 has been gone for 5 years now. It's time to move on.

I agree about Car & Driver. I stopped reading years ago when they changed the format and the writing went downhill. Now it seems like the writers just write stuff to stir up controversy. I miss the old days with guys like Csere, Brock Yates, and showing my age here David E. Davis before he left to form Automobile magazine. I still like John Phillips but it seems he mostly just writes editorial columns rather than car reviews.

[FriskyDingo]

I think the truth lies somewhere in between.

I don't think the 3 Series is the most engaging car to drive in the segment anymore. I also don't think the F30 is as good to drive as the E90.

As the owner of an E90 335i Sport Pkg car, I always thought the balance of sport and usability in that car was perfect. With the new car, it is noticeably softer and less sharp. Basically, BMW built a better car, but a worse BMW.

That said, compared to others in the segment I have driven, it still has the best blend of practicality, performance, dynamics, and comfort. In short, if I were buying a new car in this segment, it'd still be a 3 Series.

Anything the auto rags say has to be taken with a grain of salt. There's no way to count on these guys being 100% unbiased, you never know what they drove before they got into what they're reviewing, and at the end of the day, it's just someone's opinion.

[metallicpea]

C & D has been my magazine of choice for many years, but I have not read any car mags for awhile now. It is no coincidence that a magazine that prides itself on being a drivers magazine used to love the 3 series and now has some concerns.

I think the same thing many old school enthusiast types are missing from the newer cars is the same thing C & D is missing.
The mindset and interests at the core of the magazine determine what I read. If that core is still represented, I understand their position and value their opinion as they have a much better pulse on the current car market than I do.

The auto industry is certainly in transition to more technology, and I appreciate all those who try to speak up and maintain the merits of a good drivers car. At least until we a re no longer allowed to drive cars

[NightWriter]

Csere personally drove a 335i so maybe that's why you miss him

They made some terrible layout and format changes towards the end of his tenure (the bright yellow graphics left a scar on my eyes), which I'm glad they've since improved. Quality of the writing is always a little uneven between different writers. Robinson is usually solid. Phillips is often drunk but amusing in his own right.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

Popularity <> quality

I assume you're somehow connected based on your locale. Sorry if I've offended you. I simply lost interest after the changes. The quality of writing has slipped and it's very apparent that results are biased based on irrational preconceptions - i.e. all of the belly aching about how the F30 isn't as good as the E90. The E90 has been gone for 5 years now. It's time to move on.

I have no connection to C and D other than I've been a subscriber for a long time. The era of David E. Davis, Brock Yates and the like has been over for 20 years. In fact the era of magazines has been in decline. No matter what one thinks of the writing and editorials, CD has continued to value driving dynamics over most everything else. That fits perfectly with my driving values.

They don't need to move on from the E90. You don't understand that the reason they criticize the F30 is because it's not as fun to drive as the E90. It's as simple and true as that.

[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I have no connection to C and D other than I've been a subscriber for a long time. The era of David E. Davis, Brock Yates and the like has been over for 20 years. In fact the era of magazines has been in decline. No matter what one thinks of the writing and editorials, CD has continued to value driving dynamics over most everything else. That fits perfectly with my driving values.

They don't need to move on from the E90. You don't understand that the reason they criticize the F30 is because it's not as fun to drive as the E90. It's as simple and true as that.

Bingo.

[BavarianFanatic]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I have no connection to C and D other than I've been a subscriber for a long time. The era of David E. Davis, Brock Yates and the like has been over for 20 years. In fact the era of magazines has been in decline. No matter what one thinks of the writing and editorials, CD has continued to value driving dynamics over most everything else. That fits perfectly with my driving values.

They don't need to move on from the E90. You don't understand that the reason they criticize the F30 is because it's not as fun to drive as the E90. It's as simple and true as that.

I DO understand that. But, it's pointless to continue to wax nostalgic about the past. They need to be benchmarking against the current offerings of it's contemporaries, not it's predecessor. To do so is little more than whining.

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I have no connection to C and D other than I've been a subscriber for a long time. The era of David E. Davis, Brock Yates and the like has been over for 20 years. In fact the era of magazines has been in decline. No matter what one thinks of the writing and editorials, CD has continued to value driving dynamics over most everything else. That fits perfectly with my driving values.

They don't need to move on from the E90. You don't understand that the reason they criticize the F30 is because it's not as fun to drive as the E90. It's as simple and true as that.

Exactly.

To that point, I hopped in my old (now my 16 year old son's) E90 - 2006 330i 6 speed last night to have it serviced. Wow...what a car. The thing is absolutely electric (hydraulic actually!)..it's energetic, alive behind the wheel. Just great reflexes that most of you guys forget after having driven your F30 for who knows how long (or never having driven a prior 3-series before).

[jmschnur]

I have an E30 , an E46 (330i, and a 340i. I got the 340i because my knees are bad and I must limit my MT driving ,.
There are clear differences . The 340i is very very smooth and all the doodads are very nice for an ageing 70 year old. The power is awesome . The turning radius on the 1989 325 is awesome. The 2002 330i is close. The 340i is much bigger. Driving it I
have had to adjust to the space it occupies. It is a dream on a major highway and nice on small roads.

However , the other two cars are much more "fun" going around tight curves and giving the sense of a "connected" drive.

My 330i is for sale (see classifieds). I am keeping the 325 to drive once week to keep the memory of connected driving alive.

That being said , I really enjoy the 340i . It has made a positive difference in my life(knees) and is a joy to drive.

[DDD31]

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

I DO understand that. But, it's pointless to continue to wax nostalgic about the past. They need to be benchmarking against the current offerings of it's contemporaries, not it's predecessor. To do so is little more than whining.

Bingo!

I had a 1999 M3 and a 2007 335i with sport package and the M3 was a far better driving car even though it was the previous chassis (E36) and 8 years older. I could go even farther back and say that my 1984 VW Scirocco gave even better road feel than all of the cars I've had due to it not having power steering and a very direct connection to the road. When you ran over some spare change with the Scirocco, you could tell what denomination it was.

Cars have gotten bigger, heavier, more isolated, and more electronic as time has gone by and to compare older cars with new cars is ridiculous.

Does the F30 need better steering, OF COURSE, but people need to stop comparing it to the E90. Hopefully BMW gets it right with the next gen 3er but I highly doubt that its steering will be as good as the E90 or even older models.

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

The criticisms were somewhat less extreme, but excepting the EPS despair, they said very similar things about the E90 following the E46. The E90 is big and heavy. The interior design is ruined. The exterior design is uninspired. If you check out an E46 forum you'll find there is no shortage of owners who swear on their children and grandchildren they will never move on to the blasphemous E90.

I wasn't around when the E46 replaced the E36 (of course, forums were just getting started), but I can just imagine the gnashing of teeth over the increased size of the E46 compare to the E36.

_____________________


It's slightly amazing to me that it seems half of the "enthusiasts" bitching and moaning about the F30 buy an xDrive off the lot with a square set-up of all season, low rolling resistance tires, (because they don't want to be bothered with swapping high performance summer tires and winter tires), and without adaptive suspension even though it's absolutely nothing new that xDrive has always deleted the sport suspension.

_______________________

I've owned a 2000 non-sport pkg 328i, a 2004 ZHP/High Performance pkg 330i, and currently a 2006 sport pkg 330i. I don't own an F30, but I've driven a lot of them.

I've driven various E9x models at BMW driving events on closed courses and a couple of tracks. I'm a pretty aggressive driver and I can't drive my car on public roads anywhere near its limits. I haven't had the opportunity to drive the F3x on a closed course or track. In aggressive street and interstate driving in the F3x (especially one with sport suspension and performance tires) I can't feel any real discernable difference between the suspension performance of my car and an F30. It always makes me wonder what kind of driving people are doing when they post about what a disappointment the F30 is. Maybe my ability to discern is just really low. I don't know. I do know a couple of years ago when I drove a rental Ford Fusion loaded with lots of goodies from Spartanburg, SC to Asheville, NC it was exceedingly evident I was driving a car that couldn't hold a candle to the driving dynamics of a BMW.

Cool...I also own a 2006 E90 330i Sport/6MT (as well as my 2014 F30 335i Sport/6MT). That being said, don't take this the wrong way, but your "ability to discern" must be low - either that, or you haven't driven the F30 enough to directly compare.

Try driving an F30 for about two months (like I have), then hopping back into your E90. You don't have to hoon the car around to perceive the differences. It is immediate, literally when taking the first corner at a stop sign. The chassis is just connected/alive, and the road feel through the steering wheel is like wearing a thin pair of running shoes. Part of my (and I guess "our") experience is the sweet, naturally aspirated engine of the 330i as well...zero lag and an immediacy to its run up the tach.

I came in last night and told my son (who now has my E90), "Do you know what's more fun than driving my new BMW? Driving my old one."

Boom.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

The criticisms were somewhat less extreme, but excepting the EPS despair, they said very similar things about the E90 following the E46. The E90 is big and heavy. The interior design is ruined. The exterior design is uninspired. If you check out an E46 forum you'll find there is no shortage of owners who swear on their children and grandchildren they will never move on to the blasphemous E90.

I wasn't around when the E46 replaced the E36 (of course, forums were just getting started), but I can just imagine the gnashing of teeth over the increased size of the E46 compare to the E36.

_____________________


It's slightly amazing to me that it seems half of the "enthusiasts" bitching and moaning about the F30 buy an xDrive off the lot with a square set-up of all season, low rolling resistance tires, (because they don't want to be bothered with swapping high performance summer tires and winter tires), and without adaptive suspension even though it's absolutely nothing new that xDrive has always deleted the sport suspension.

_______________________

I've owned a 2000 non-sport pkg 328i, a 2004 ZHP/High Performance pkg 330i, and currently a 2006 sport pkg 330i. I don't own an F30, but I've driven a lot of them.

I've driven various E9x models at BMW driving events on closed courses and a couple of tracks. I'm a pretty aggressive driver and I can't drive my car on public roads anywhere near its limits. I haven't had the opportunity to drive the F3x on a closed course or track. In aggressive street and interstate driving in the F3x (especially one with sport suspension and performance tires) I can't feel any real discernable difference between the suspension performance of my car and an F30. It always makes me wonder what kind of driving people are doing when they post about what a disappointment the F30 is. Maybe my ability to discern is just really low. I don't know. I do know a couple of years ago when I drove a rental Ford Fusion loaded with lots of goodies from Spartanburg, SC to Asheville, NC it was exceedingly evident I was driving a car that couldn't hold a candle to the driving dynamics of a BMW.

Car and Driver didn't make those kind of remarks about the E90.

No matter. Here is my take on the F30 and how I drive. My car is optioned for maximum handling from the factory. RWD, Sport Line, 6MT. It's relatively light and I recently added UHP all season tires. There's no doubt this car has high capabilities. With the Conti DWS tires the cornering limit is very high. Of course on the road I never drive to what I feel is my limit but in hard driving I want to feel what the front tires are doing. This means knowing the progression of the slip angles and having the steering tighten as this happens. The E90 was outstanding in this regard. The F30 not so much. Even in Sport mode the steering is too light, does not communicate the contact patches and is not linear. I expect more and after owning E90's for 6 years, reading that other companies are able to successfully tune EPS and knowing that BMW is not serious about doing so, I am disappointed in this aspect of the car.

[Prossx]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

Cool...I also own a 2006 E90 330i Sport/6MT (as well as my 2014 F30 335i Sport/6MT). That being said, don't take this the wrong way, but your "ability to discern" must be low - either that, or you haven't driven the F30 enough to directly compare.

Try driving an F30 for about two months (like I have), then hopping back into your E90. You don't have to hoon the car around to perceive the differences. It is immediate, literally when taking the first corner at a stop sign. The chassis is just connected/alive, and the road feel through the steering wheel is like wearing a thin pair of running shoes. Part of my (and I guess "our") experience is the sweet, naturally aspirated engine of the 330i as well...zero lag and an immediacy to its run up the tach.

I came in last night and told my son (who now has my E90), "Do you know what's more fun than driving my new BMW? Driving my old one."

Boom.

Agreed. A work buddy just acquired a 2008 335i sport rwd auto w/ 25k miles on the clock. Driving that car its immediately apparent what everyone is talking about. i still like my F30 better overall. Would be nice to have both in the garage.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

I DO understand that. But, it's pointless to continue to wax nostalgic about the past. They need to be benchmarking against the current offerings of it's contemporaries, not it's predecessor. To do so is little more than whining.

You were being "nostalgic" about C&D back in the days of Csaba Csere, so aren't you a bit hypocritical?

Also, "benchmarking against the current offerings" is exactly what C&D (and others) are doing when they're picking other brands over BMW in comparison tests. That's the point - BMW used to win comparison tests based on "fun factor" and better "road feel" but now the shoe on the other foot and they are falling short of the competition.

Frankly, when you accuse others of whining, you might want to look in the mirror.

[goj]

Lol at the typical crowd that hates their pre LCI f30

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Wrong. They are still the number one enthusiast mag in the US. And by the way Csere is still there just more behind the scenes as a contributing editor. C and D subscriptions are 20% higher than MT and way higher than R & T who are not even listed in the top 100.

Given that it's print media, being #1 and being "relevant" may not really coincide....

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

Popularity <> quality

I assume you're somehow connected based on your locale. Sorry if I've offended you. I simply lost interest after the changes. The quality of writing has slipped and it's very apparent that results are biased based on irrational preconceptions - i.e. all of the belly aching about how the F30 isn't as good as the E90. The E90 has been gone for 5 years now. It's time to move on.

Right--those stupid "Maxim" style charts and graphics...ugh. I cancelled my subscription 2 years ago, and tried complimentary subscriptions to MT, R&T and Automobile. So I agree on all fronts--C&D is just a shell of what it once was...but it's still the best out there....

[BavarianFanatic]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

You were being "nostalgic" about C&D back in the days of Csaba Csere, so aren't you a bit hypocritical?

Also, "benchmarking against the current offerings" is exactly what C&D (and others) are doing when they're picking other brands over BMW in comparison tests. That's the point - BMW used to win comparison tests based on "fun factor" and better "road feel" but now the shoe on the other foot and they are falling short of the competition.

Frankly, when you accuse others of whining, you might want to look in the mirror.

Nope, not being nostalgic. Simply stating a fact regarding why I no longer subscribe. Sort of akin to saying "I took Main because Cityline was backed up". It's irrational to argue that I'm being nostalgic about the times when Cityline wasn't backed up.

And, when C&D offers their rationalizations for picking others over BMW, they always point out that it's because they're taking marks off for BMW because it's "not as good as it used to be".

Let's put this to bed - if you don't like the current offerings because they're too soft for you then go elsewhere for your kicks (to whatever the mags consider to be "the shit" this week). Or, just keep your E90 forever and be a self-proclaimed hardcore bad ass enthusiast. Frankly, a TRUE enthusiast recognizes the fact that an E90 is a lard ass turd - the E30 was the last good BMW.

[metallicpea]

I think cars should improve, not regress. To say we should ignore better performing models in the past because there is nothing currently as good is not acceptable to me. Yes it may be on par with current products available and might still be a reasonable choice if buying a new car, but if better has existed in the past, we should be vocal that it should return.

[dalto]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

Also, "benchmarking against the current offerings" is exactly what C&D (and others) are doing when they're picking other brands over BMW in comparison tests. That's the point - BMW used to win comparison tests based on "fun factor" and better "road feel" but now the shoe on the other foot and they are falling short of the competition.

I agree with BavarianFanatic on this one. Comparing a car to itself in the past is totally pointless. Especially, when you ignore all the many things that are better in the new car than the old and only focus on the things you perceive to be worse. At some point you need to accept that cars don't have hydraulic steering anymore.

So, my question continues to be this: Who makes a currently produced sedan at a similar or lower price point to the 340i that is a better "driver's car"?

Mercedes? To me the 340i is better than C450 compared on the basis of driving dynamics.
Audi? Definitely not.
Chevy? The SS could arguably be put here but it's not even close after you drive one.
Cadillac? The ATS-V is at a different price point and the ATS isn't on par with the 340i.
Lexus? The IS350 isn't even comparable.

What other 4 door vehicle is even close?

It is fine for them to say that the car is not as fun as it's predecessors but it needs to be put in context with the how it compares to it's contemporaries.

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by metallicpea

I think cars should improve, not regress. To say we should ignore better performing models in the past because there is nothing currently as good is not acceptable to me. Yes it may be on par with current products available and might still be a reasonable choice if buying a new car, but if better has existed in the past, we should be vocal that it should return.

Your definition of "improve" may differ from mine, or someone else's. BMW's definition clearly is "make the car more well rounded and appealing to a larger customer base." Anyone who believes that is not an improvement will, or should, leave for a different brand. Sales numbers, more than C&D reviews, are BMW's guiding point.