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      09-18-2013, 04:53 PM   #485
TonyS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightyear36 View Post
Exactly.


Well, the only car I know of where the double-glazing is offered is Audi A8.

But that is a good point, which would explain why E90 owners perceived less noise - maybe BMW managed to save on the glass quality in F30 (in addition to many other things). But then again, from what I heard during my test-drive, they must have saved on F10 glass quality as well.
Interesting you say that about the glass quality. When I first got my F30 I was very aware of the noise from the windscreen glass every time it rained - the sound of raindrops hitting the glass sounded much louder than in my E46. Maybe the glass is thinner for weight saving reasons?
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      09-18-2013, 05:07 PM   #486
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I think more road noise is a fact of life. The cars are more powerful, hence wider tires. Manufacturers need to keep weight down for fuel efficiency so less insulation. Result is more road noise. If you want less road noise you will have to take the panels apart and apply more insulation.
There really is no way around road noise problems. Wind noise on the other hand can be fixed.
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      09-18-2013, 05:12 PM   #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyS View Post
Interesting you say that about the glass quality. When I first got my F30 I was very aware of the noise from the windscreen glass every time it rained - the sound of raindrops hitting the glass sounded much louder than in my E46. Maybe the glass is thinner for weight saving reasons?
It is known that F30 has a very thin windscreen glass, because it cracks easily being hit my small stones on the road. It is a logical consequence that BMW would use the same type of glass all around the cabin. In fact, side and rear windows are usually not being hit by anything, therefore they can be even thinner.

Anyway all these findings (whether theoretical or practical) do not help us if the glass quality is an issue. Swapping all windows against the same glass by the dealer would be a no-brainer.
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      09-18-2013, 05:13 PM   #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
I think more road noise is a fact of life. The cars are more powerful, hence wider tires. Manufacturers need to keep weight down for fuel efficiency so less insulation. Result is more road noise. If you want less road noise you will have to take the panels apart and apply more insulation.
There really is no way around road noise problems. Wind noise on the other hand can be fixed.
Right. There is a separate road-noise thread. Here we try to concentrate on the wind noise.

BTW a lot of people on the russian F30 forum decreased the road noise significantly by insulating the wheel arcs properly (though adding weight :-().

Last edited by lightyear36; 09-18-2013 at 05:19 PM..
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      09-18-2013, 07:17 PM   #489
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Haha, we're taping and patching our $50k+ German luxury sedans like they would be Trabant, Lada or Renault 16. This is ridiculous.

Here's the gist of it: there is a problem with the door rubber or door alignment. Besides the road noise, normal wind noise, we also have a clear woosh sound at the top of B-pillar, and I can CLEARLY hear the cars passing me, and even the cars going the other way at a distance of 20 feet or more. It's like the window or the door is not closed properly.
That's not thinner glass. It's not mirror design. It's poor rubber, poor design or poor door alignment. Period.

Someone here was saying something about testing an A4 or A6. I can tell you by now, the 2009 A4 is quieter, it has less road noise and wind noise. Another thing I can tell you is that the 2011 A4 LCI is EVEN QUIETER. They got their shit together and it's now MUCH quieter car than my F30.

Regarding the F10 being "only" 30% quieter than the F30. That's huge. That's the level of my 2007 750Li. Plus, no one's doing 200 kph in US of A.
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      09-18-2013, 08:06 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by metrathon View Post
Haha, we're taping and patching our $50k+ German luxury sedans like they would be Trabant, Lada or Renault 16. This is ridiculous.
The good news is that a) we're almost done - no further ideas, and b) those mods didn't have to stay on the car forever as we haven't located the root cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metrathon View Post
Here's the gist of it: there is a problem with the door rubber or door alignment.
I think it's not that easy. Isn't my latest insulation test (and other tests by the members) indicative in this respect? Anyway I'll probably have my doors checked by the dealer just to be on the safe side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metrathon View Post
Besides the road noise, normal wind noise, we also have a clear woosh sound at the top of B-pillar, and I can CLEARLY hear the cars passing me, and even the cars going the other way at a distance of 20 feet or more.
Surprisingly I could hear outside cars more clearly in an F10 than in my F30. The joke is - in the F10 I could hear wind noises produced around the bodies of other cars :-). At the same time the F10 didn't have the wooshing at the top of B-Pillar. I would say aerodynamics of some body element (don't know which one yet).

Quote:
Originally Posted by metrathon View Post
That's not thinner glass. It's not mirror design. It's poor rubber, poor design or poor door alignment. Period.
Have you had your doors checked/adjusted already?

Quote:
Originally Posted by metrathon View Post
I can tell you by now, the 2009 A4 is quieter, it has less road noise and wind noise. Another thing I can tell you is that the 2011 A4 LCI is EVEN QUIETER. They got their shit together and it's now MUCH quieter car than my F30.
I do believe you, however I need to hear it for myself. The F10 test was rather disappointing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metrathon View Post
Regarding the F10 being "only" 30% quieter than the F30. That's huge. That's the level of my 2007 750Li.
Well I was expecting almost the level of a hi-speed express-train which is _dead_ quiet inside (dual glass). Missed that expectation by a huge margin. F10 ain't a pillow either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metrathon View Post
Plus, no one's doing 200 kph in US of A.
Like I said in one of my earlier posts, the problem is then even more severe for me, because one can drive 200 kmh (or more) for extended periods of time here, which isn't funny anymore and the noise could be health-damaging in the worst case. At 250 kmh in F30 you cannot hear a damn thing except the ubiquitous wind noise.
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      09-18-2013, 08:23 PM   #491
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First of all lightyear... Good on you for doing all that work and documenting that here. Thanks a heap for that.

Second, i have been thinking about my statement about road noise vs wind noise a bit more from my last post. I will admit that taping the window edges with sound insulating foam did also reduce the wooshing sound around the cabin noise. but the majority of the din is from tyre roar.

In other words, if you tried the same test it may reduce what you perceive to be b pillar wind noise but i am attributing to tyre roar.

Thirdly, if anyone is attempting to locate a problem, do not use tape. Use foam other another proper insulating material. Tape isnt noise insulating and therefore will not conclusively rule your theory in or out
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      09-18-2013, 08:27 PM   #492
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Btw it is a pity that my car is only booked in thurs next week to address the side window seals. I wont have any positive updates till then. Even so, there may be delays in obtaining a replacement part or the service guys giving me the within spec" runaround.

But taping the side window seals was a telling difference.
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      09-18-2013, 08:36 PM   #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKau View Post
First of all lightyear... Good on you for doing all that work and documenting that here. Thanks a heap for that.

Second, i have been thinking about my statement about road noise vs wind noise a bit more from my last post. I will admit that taping the window edges with sound insulating foam did also reduce the wooshing sound around the cabin noise. but the majority of the din is from tyre roar.

In other words, if you tried the same test it may reduce what you perceive to be b pillar wind noise but i am attributing to tyre roar.

Thirdly, if anyone is attempting to locate a problem, do not use tape. Use foam other another proper insulating material. Tape isnt noise insulating and therefore will not conclusively rule your theory in or out
I would like to comment on taping of joints. Although, you are correct in that tape isn't noise insulating, if the noise is due to leakage, taping will indeed stop the noise if it effectively stops the leakage of air.
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      09-18-2013, 08:39 PM   #494
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Ckau raises a good point about tire noise. Has anyone attempted to correlate noise vs. tire type? Different tires can have significantly different noise levels. Tire noise is omnidirectional and different to pinpoint.
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      09-18-2013, 08:43 PM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKau View Post
Second, i have been thinking about my statement about road noise vs wind noise a bit more from my last post. I will admit that taping the window edges with sound insulating foam did also reduce the wooshing sound around the cabin noise. but the majority of the din is from tyre roar.
Then congratulations - in your case it seems you've defeated the wooshing to the extent where your primary concern is the road noise. I'm not there yet - in my case the wooshing is much more obtrusive than the road noise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKau View Post
In other words, if you tried the same test it may reduce what you perceive to be b pillar wind noise but i am attributing to tyre roar.
It is pretty fantastic that the B-pillar wooshing has something to do with wheels. BUT... there is an issue pending in the German wind-noise thread. That is exactly the theory there. BMW Switzerland was already notified of the wheel arcs producing a lot of (road? wind?) noise. Currently everybody's waiting for new updates on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKau View Post
But taping the side window seals was a telling difference.
For me the telling difference was this one:


At least the pattern of the wooshing changed, which means I got the right body element. But again - bluemark81 couldn't confirm any improvement. And the test with a dismounted side mirror is still pending.
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      09-18-2013, 08:47 PM   #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post
I would like to comment on taping of joints. Although, you are correct in that tape isn't noise insulating, if the noise is due to leakage, taping will indeed stop the noise if it effectively stops the leakage of air.
BavarianFanatic has noted a couple of posts earlier that in case of leakage one would hear an explicit whistling. I agree and can confirm that because while I was driving the loaner 320d I got an opportunity to hear what a windshield whistling problem looks like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic View Post
Ckau raises a good point about tire noise. Has anyone attempted to correlate noise vs. tire type? Different tires can have significantly different noise levels. Tire noise is omnidirectional and different to pinpoint.
But the noise would then be stable independent of whether one has head or tail wind. This isn't the case apparently. Anyway winter is coming and I will be putting on some non-RFT Goodyears with 68dB (EU spec). Will check then.
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      09-18-2013, 08:54 PM   #497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightyear36 View Post
Well I was expecting almost the level of a hi-speed express-train which is _dead_ quiet inside (dual glass). Missed that expectation by a huge margin. F10 ain't a pillow either.
The expectation was unrealistic. The quietest car I ever had was the 750. Second place was the E60.

Last place ... guess ... F30. It's worse than my first car, a Citroen Xsara. The tires roar (I already changed the original flats to Kumho Ecsta LX Platinum- quietest Kumho tires), the wind blows, what can I say? Convertible experience
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      09-18-2013, 09:00 PM   #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightyear36 View Post
BavarianFanatic has noted a couple of posts earlier that in case of leakage one would hear an explicit whistling. I agree and can confirm that because while I was driving the loaner 320d I got an opportunity to hear what a windshield whistling problem looks like.
Not necessarily true since there are too many variables involved to decisively say all leakage causes whistling. Velocity, orifice size, shape, density of the air, etc all have contributing factors. Furthermore, we all perceive noises somewhat differently to one degree or another. We all agree that there is an issue at the upper b-pillar area, but I'm not ruling air leakage out just yet.
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      09-18-2013, 09:05 PM   #499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post
but I'm not ruling air leakage out just yet.
If it's eliminateable by taping, I do. See the first paragraph here:

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=388

But of course you're welcome to repeat the test for yourself :-).
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      09-18-2013, 09:17 PM   #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightyear36 View Post
If it's eliminateable by taping, I do. See the first paragraph here:

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=388

But of course you're welcome to repeat the test for yourself :-).
Already tried it and didn't have any success, but I'm still not ruling anything out.
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      09-18-2013, 09:32 PM   #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post
Not necessarily true since there are too many variables involved to decisively say all leakage causes whistling. Velocity, orifice size, shape, density of the air, etc all have contributing factors. Furthermore, we all perceive noises somewhat differently to one degree or another. We all agree that there is an issue at the upper b-pillar area, but I'm not ruling air leakage out just yet.


I use the term whistling loosely, but it's the best way to describe the sound heard when air is accelerated through a passage. Moving are does not generate any noise without encountering an obstacle that will either accelerate or decelerate it. In the case of infiltration the are is accelerated through the void/passage.
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      09-18-2013, 09:43 PM   #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic View Post
I use the term whistling loosely, but it's the best way to describe the sound heard when air is accelerated through a passage. Moving are does not generate any noise without encountering an obstacle that will either accelerate or decelerate it. In the case of infiltration the are is accelerated through the void/passage.
Agree
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      09-18-2013, 09:56 PM   #503
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Let me quickly summarize the current pending items:

1) Waiting for update from CKau after his window guides have been replaced.
2) Waiting for update from me once I had my doors checked/adjusted by the dealer.
3) Waiting for update from the German thread - wheel arc suspicion.
4) Waiting for update from the German thread - replacement of complete rubber seals in the doors.
5) Hoping for somebody to dismount the side mirrors and do the test.
6) Waiting for update from the member Anaskh regarding possible new side mirror design (http://www.f30post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=393).
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      09-18-2013, 10:36 PM   #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightyear36 View Post
The good news is that a) we're almost done - no further ideas, and b) those mods didn't have to stay on the car forever as we haven't located the root cause.


I think it's not that easy. Isn't my latest insulation test (and other tests by the members) indicative in this respect? Anyway I'll probably have my doors checked by the dealer just to be on the safe side.


Surprisingly I could hear outside cars more clearly in an F10 than in my F30. The joke is - in the F10 I could hear wind noises produced around the bodies of other cars :-). At the same time the F10 didn't have the wooshing at the top of B-Pillar. I would say aerodynamics of some body element (don't know which one yet).


Have you had your doors checked/adjusted already?


I do believe you, however I need to hear it for myself. The F10 test was rather disappointing.


Well I was expecting almost the level of a hi-speed express-train which is _dead_ quiet inside (dual glass). Missed that expectation by a huge margin. F10 ain't a pillow either.


Like I said in one of my earlier posts, the problem is then even more severe for me, because one can drive 200 kmh (or more) for extended periods of time here, which isn't funny anymore and the noise could be health-damaging in the worst case. At 250 kmh in F30 you cannot hear a damn thing except the ubiquitous wind noise.
I did up to 220 kph in an F30 320d on the Autobahn. Wind noise not an issue, nor is it in my 335i here. I even asked passengers if they notice anything--nada.
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      09-18-2013, 10:58 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by snowghost View Post
I did up to 220 kph in an F30 320d on the Autobahn. Wind noise not an issue, nor is it in my 335i here. I even asked passengers if they notice anything--nada.
320d has a noticeably louder engine whose roar is the primary source of noise at high revs/speeds. How fast did you go with your 335i?
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      09-19-2013, 06:20 AM   #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic View Post
All of the areas addressed recently with the addition of tape, extra seals, etc. would be used to counter wind infiltration which would be a whistling sound. The music test is flawed for one very simple reason - the speakers are INSIDE THE DOOR. Disconnect the door speakers, then try again.

The noise I've experienced is the air rushing around the cabin, not air infiltrating the cabin. I suspect this is what the majority here are experiencing as well. Objects moving through the air make noise. I think the issue is more that the glass used transmits more of this noise than we're used to.
I reread your post and realised you we taking about wind noise around the cabin, but not from infiltrating the cabin.

This is what i thought my problem was as well until I soundproofed the wheel arches. Do you have a variety of freeways with different surfaces ? Here in sydney we have a mix of really good top quality hushed tarmc versus really third world sh1tty coarse concrete. The whooshing noise is markedly different which lead me to realise it was not a wind noise issue.

Does your wind noise differ between surfaces?

In any event, i would like to see you and lightyear to try taping the door window edges like i did to see if it makes a difference, and perhaps even the b pillar gap between the doors (as a separate exercise so you can pinpoint the delta)

Just an update from me.... Ironically it is unfortunate that my wind and road roar was nearly non existent tonight on the same stretch of road where it was noticeable same time last week. I say undortunate because the service centre is more likely to fob me off than assist if the problem was blatantly present.

I put it down to the wheel arch insulation i reinstalled and warmer temperatures expanding the window seals.
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