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      07-15-2013, 01:55 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
given the 328i is lighter, would probably decimate the ATS 3.6 on the track.
Not sure I follow this logic...
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      07-15-2013, 01:59 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
I don't think you'll ever be able to test these cars in a vacuum with everything equal. I doubt they buy them, probably get them either OE corporate loan, dealer loan or just flat out rent them. Imagine right now if I said "go test a mini-cooper, fiat abrath, ford fiesta ST and GTI such that every option is the same." Like me, you probably don't know the intricacies of the mini-cooper optioning, and given logistic annoyances, you'd probably be happy with "sport" lines of each one (whatever that means). Even though these guys are "car guys," they also get to test drive GT-R's, Ferrari's and 911's...so they probably don't really care when one car comes with performance brakes. They probably tell BMW - "give us your best factory 3 series with x drive" and this is what they got.

If I was in the market for a new car, these reviews would just serve as an objective measure and you'd really need to read between the lines and test drive them yourself. The final "order" doesn't really mean much if the context varies from your own. My personal opinion is some of these cars are developed more for the smaller engine segment (328/A4/ATS 2.0) so their "big engine" variant is not necessarily up to snuff. Trying to compare the n55/3.0 TFSI with those NA 3.6 V6's isn't really fair...the FI engines are just sooooo much torquier and since these aren't high revving engines, the S4/335 feel much faster around town...so my personal ordering is

{S4, 335} >>>> S60 > ATS > IS350
Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I was under the impression that BMW supplied this press car to them for the purpose of this comparison. I think using standard available options is fair game, but adding on performance accessories, that 85% of buyers don't even know exist, seems like pushing it a bit. I don't blame BMW for doing it though.
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      07-15-2013, 02:17 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
I don't think you'll ever be able to test these cars in a vacuum with everything equal. I doubt they buy them, probably get them either OE corporate loan, dealer loan or just flat out rent them. Imagine right now if I said "go test a mini-cooper, fiat abrath, ford fiesta ST and GTI such that every option is the same." Like me, you probably don't know the intricacies of the mini-cooper optioning, and given logistic annoyances, you'd probably be happy with "sport" lines of each one (whatever that means). Even though these guys are "car guys," they also get to test drive GT-R's, Ferrari's and 911's...so they probably don't really care when one car comes with performance brakes. They probably tell BMW - "give us your best factory 3 series with x drive" and this is what they got.

If I was in the market for a new car, these reviews would just serve as an objective measure and you'd really need to read between the lines and test drive them yourself. The final "order" doesn't really mean much if the context varies from your own. My personal opinion is some of these cars are developed more for the smaller engine segment (328/A4/ATS 2.0) so their "big engine" variant is not necessarily up to snuff. Trying to compare the n55/3.0 TFSI with those NA 3.6 V6's isn't really fair...the FI engines are just sooooo much torquier and since these aren't high revving engines, the S4/335 feel much faster around town...so my personal ordering is

{S4, 335} >>>> S60 > ATS > IS350
The chassis is just fine for both the 328/A4 and the 335/S4

I 100% agree with the order they have here. The only area where the S4 for example beat the 335i is road holding, where the 335i came 2nd btw. The 335i seems to have beat or tied the S4 in every other area from there.

If you then look at the 3rd to last car, those would have to prove how they can get ahead of the S4, which I think we can agree is damn near impossible.
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      07-15-2013, 02:35 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
Not sure I follow this logic...
ATS 3.6 ties the 328i in straight line performance. Given that they are tied, I would personally pick the lighter car on the track. Its just a preference, am sure others would pick the ATS, but I have more faith in the 328i. That would be my winning horse right there

Without the track results we can only speculate who would win.
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      07-15-2013, 02:46 PM   #27
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BMW may have won the review and barely by the numbers against an aging S4 but I say what the heck is wrong with BMW? I find it more of a loss. Cadillac and S4 both had better handling. Here is a quote
"Oddly, the BMW features the laziest handling here. As you're probably aware, BMW has been drifting away from its Ultimate Driving Machine image for several years now, moving more toward a techno/luxury future anchored by ferocious straight-line speed. Said Lago."
This forum cheering on BMW as the best all rounder reminds me of Audi forums a couple of years ago when BMW was winning all performance/handling tests/reviews and BMW calling Audi cars soft and Audi guys would say that the Audi was the best all rounder. Now we have a reversal of roles.
I would like one Audi and one BMW, don't like sticking to one single brand but if BMW is going to be softer than Audi than what is the point? I want BMW to basically be a four door sports car while the Audi to be the 4 door all rounder and this worked best in my opinion.
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      07-15-2013, 03:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
BMW may have won the review and barely by the numbers against an aging S4 but I say what the heck is wrong with BMW? I find it more of a loss. Cadillac and S4 both had better handling. Here is a quote
"Oddly, the BMW features the laziest handling here. As you're probably aware, BMW has been drifting away from its Ultimate Driving Machine image for several years now, moving more toward a techno/luxury future anchored by ferocious straight-line speed. Said Lago."
This forum cheering on BMW as the best all rounder reminds me of Audi forums a couple of years ago when BMW was winning all performance/handling tests/reviews and BMW calling Audi cars soft and Audi guys would say that the Audi was the best all rounder. Now we have a reversal of roles.
I would like one Audi and one BMW, don't like sticking to one single brand but if BMW is going to be softer than Audi than what is the point? I want BMW to basically be a four door sports car while the Audi to be the 4 door all rounder and this worked best in my opinion.
The problem with the E9X was their interiors were not great and they were light on tech. So the argument by Audi guys was not too far off. You cannot say this with the F30 as the interior is truly one of the best and the tech is unmatched in its segment. Granted opinions differ on the suspension but this has not held back the 328i and now the 335i from winning. MT went on to say the car had no glaring flaws.

Look at what they had to say about the ATS. Cadillac thought if they took the BMW approach of the EXX gen they will be on fire. Clearly the sales indicate that customers are looking for much more than just the chassis.
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      07-15-2013, 03:38 PM   #29
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I was waiting for this article to make sure I made the right decision, finally...
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      07-15-2013, 04:05 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Look at what they had to say about the ATS. Cadillac thought if they took the BMW approach of the EXX gen they will be on fire. Clearly the sales indicate that customers are looking for much more than just the chassis.
That might be a short sided view though. Winning enthusiasts opinion war has very little immediate sales benefit, but over time it is what builds the reputation. I would bet you that Porsche could increase its sales by significantly softening the 911 or the Boxster, since majority of the people that own these cars don't seem to push them all that much, whereas they would appreciate the added comfort and utility. And that would work for a while too, until their customer base finally figures out that the enthusiasts community no longer considers Porsches to be the benchmarks. Then it would all come crashing down.

The is the same dilemma that exists for musicians as well. How much do you cater to the critics, and how much to the average audience? It's always tempting to go for the pop appeal at any given moment, but over time that would cost you the respect from the opinion makers.

So you might laugh at the ATS for achieving its stated goal of beating the 3er in handling and still not beating it in sales or reviews, but if this trend continues for two more generations, then you'll start to see the ATS being referred to as the benchmark by the enthusiasts. And then the sales would also start to reflect the reputation.

This is far from the first review that has criticized the F30 for having a disappointing handling. I know the fact that I own an E90 would negate anything I say to many of you, but despite the fact that the F30 is a huge improvement over the E90 in many many aspects, I think this consistent criticism of what used to define the 3er brand name should concern any BMW enthusiasts in the long run. Here's hoping that they would correct this by the LCI.
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      07-15-2013, 04:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Propagator View Post
That might be a short sided view though. Winning enthusiasts opinion war has very little immediate sales benefit, but over time it is what builds the reputation. I would bet you that Porsche could increase its sales by significantly softening the 911 or the Boxster, since majority of the people that own these cars don't seem to push them all that much, whereas they would appreciate the added comfort and utility. And that would work for a while too, until their customer base finally figures out that the enthusiasts community no longer considers Porsches to be the benchmarks. Then it would all come crashing down.

The is the same dilemma that exists for musicians as well. How much do you cater to the critics, and how much to the average audience? It's always tempting to go for the pop appeal at any given moment, but over time that would cost you the respect from the opinion makers.

So you might laugh at the ATS for achieving its stated goal of beating the 3er in handling and still not beating it in sales or reviews, but if this trend continues for two more generations, then you'll start to see the ATS being referred to as the benchmark by the enthusiasts. And then the sales would also start to reflect the reputation.

This is far from the first review that has criticized the F30 for having a disappointing handling. I know the fact that I own an E90 would negate anything I say to many of you, but despite the fact that the F30 is a huge improvement over the E90 in many many aspects, I think this consistent criticism of what used to define the 3er brand name should concern any BMW enthusiasts in the long run. Here's hoping that they would correct this by the LCI.
The problem with this line of thought is the volume leader, the 328i is a rock star. I have said this many times before. The formula for BMW has always been to get the 328i in the lead of not only sales but also driving dynamics. The public is voting for the F30 with their hard earned cash, this takes care of one side of the equation.

All reviews (100%) say the 328i is just as close to perfection as you can get in this segment. It just flatly annihilates the ATS 2, IS 250, A4, C300, Acura TL SHAWD in all reviews. Not only that it matches the C350, IS350, Acura TL SHAWD, ATS 3.6 in straight line performance. Add the awards the 328i is getting for its N20 and you can see why I personally give it rock star status.

This is why BMW has not failed with the F30 and it will retain its status as the benchmark of the segment with no threat to sales.

I think its safe to say there are few enthusiasts lining up for the ATS 3.6 from here.
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      07-15-2013, 07:35 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
All reviews (100%) say the 328i is just as close to perfection as you can get in this segment.
*Far from it*. We definitely don't read the same reviews.
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      07-15-2013, 08:27 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
Can't understand why BMW never sends a car with the M Perf suspension. They should have skipped the BBK and put the suspension instead in this car.
Did it say they didn't? Don't see that in the article.

I agree, I'm sure they didn't because the xDrive requires DHP to get that sport setting, meaning it got that rolly boring suspension.

Weird they sent that expensive brake kit for sure ...
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      07-15-2013, 08:50 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuned2ride
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
All reviews (100%) say the 328i is just as close to perfection as you can get in this segment.
*Far from it*. We definitely don't read the same reviews.
It's all relative. If the 328i is not close then which one is?

IS250
A4
Acura TL
C300
ATS 2T

and then find one review that places your choice over the 328i. As usual my winning horse is the F30 328i in this wager
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      07-15-2013, 09:21 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
The problem with this line of thought is the volume leader, the 328i is a rock star. I have said this many times before. The formula for BMW has always been to get the 328i in the lead of not only sales but also driving dynamics. The public is voting for the F30 with their hard earned cash, this takes care of one side of the equation.

All reviews (100%) say the 328i is just as close to perfection as you can get in this segment. It just flatly annihilates the ATS 2, IS 250, A4, C300, Acura TL SHAWD in all reviews. Not only that it matches the C350, IS350, Acura TL SHAWD, ATS 3.6 in straight line performance. Add the awards the 328i is getting for its N20 and you can see why I personally give it rock star status.

This is why BMW has not failed with the F30 and it will retain its status as the benchmark of the segment with no threat to sales.

I think its safe to say there are few enthusiasts lining up for the ATS 3.6 from here.
I could keep arguing, but we have enough of that going on, so I'll bow out and let the F30 owners enjoy the well earned victory.
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      07-15-2013, 09:59 PM   #36
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Makes no sense why BMW fully-loaded a demo car only to handicap it by choosing the xDrive.
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      07-15-2013, 10:04 PM   #37
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Nice win for the F30. Maybe the roads in NJ where I live aren't that interesting or magazine worthy but I have pushed my xdrive 335 hard and though the steering is not the same as previous models, its not bad just different and maybe it comes down to personal opinion but I compare it to the E39 M5 I had and I am honestly not missing it anymore which I never thought I'd say. Would love BMW to listen and make the improvements to net better handling performance in these comparisons but at the end of the day I'll always take my BMW over any of the tested cars (S4 very close 2nd!) and over all the evos and sti's any day.
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      07-15-2013, 10:32 PM   #38
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Nice. I wonder why they didn't compare the C-class. I know it's due for a refresh for 2015...
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      07-15-2013, 10:39 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
The problem with the E9X was their interiors were not great and they were light on tech. So the argument by Audi guys was not too far off. You cannot say this with the F30 as the interior is truly one of the best and the tech is unmatched in its segment. Granted opinions differ on the suspension but this has not held back the 328i and now the 335i from winning. MT went on to say the car had no glaring flaws.

Look at what they had to say about the ATS. Cadillac thought if they took the BMW approach of the EXX gen they will be on fire. Clearly the sales indicate that customers are looking for much more than just the chassis.
It is very simple both the ATS and Audi had better handling/performance than the Ultimate Driving Machine. This was never the case before, and IMO BMW should get back to handling otherwise others like Audi and MB will be seen as the leader in performance then sales will be overtaken by others.
BMW didn't build it's reputation as builder/manufacturer of luxury riding cars. To change directions now may be good in the short run but like someone else mentioned it will be poor strategy for the long run. Just look at what the R8 has done for Audi, GTR for Nissan and AMG for MB.
Look no further than the forums here where BMW owners of previous versions are disappointed with the F30. Enthusiasts are the early adopters which others ask for opinion when purchasing cars and they are a small group but a very important group in convincing others as they are seen as the car guys.
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      07-15-2013, 10:45 PM   #40
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Give it a rest. You cant have it both ways. Even when the 335i wins it looses. It came 1st out of all those great cars. Add whatever spin you want, this is just a reflection of what 335i owners have known from the beginning.

Refinement is something all manufactures strive for, and BMW is taking refinement to a new level and that is not a bad thing. The F30 is a step forward and with DHP it is on-par or better than the E9x in handling. Have other manufacturers set their aim at BMW, Yes. And as you can tell from the review, They have closed the gap in some areas. The whole point is that even in trying to copy-cat from an earlier BMW model they were not able to surpass the F30. When you are the champ, everyone is gunning for you, They all want to beat the F30 in some aspect so they can use it in advertising. No one puts it all together like BMW, and that is why it is the ultimate driving machine.
This notion that BMW is getting away from its core values is nonsense. The f30 offers great flexibility in how the car is setup and driven. The F30 is an economic sipper, A comfort cruiser or a powerful beast at the push of a button. They are giving it to you in one great package, That is the genius of the F30

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW View Post
BMW may have won the review and barely by the numbers against an aging S4 but I say what the heck is wrong with BMW? I find it more of a loss. Cadillac and S4 both had better handling. Here is a quote
"Oddly, the BMW features the laziest handling here. As you're probably aware, BMW has been drifting away from its Ultimate Driving Machine image for several years now, moving more toward a techno/luxury future anchored by ferocious straight-line speed. Said Lago."
This forum cheering on BMW as the best all rounder reminds me of Audi forums a couple of years ago when BMW was winning all performance/handling tests/reviews and BMW calling Audi cars soft and Audi guys would say that the Audi was the best all rounder. Now we have a reversal of roles.
I would like one Audi and one BMW, don't like sticking to one single brand but if BMW is going to be softer than Audi than what is the point? I want BMW to basically be a four door sports car while the Audi to be the 4 door all rounder and this worked best in my opinion.

Last edited by KevRyd; 07-15-2013 at 11:09 PM..
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      07-15-2013, 11:42 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevRyd View Post
No one puts it all together like BMW, and that is why it is the ultimate driving machine.
What page of the New Owner Guide did you read this quote on? I wanna cut it out and glue-stick it to a collage on my bedroom wall.
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      07-16-2013, 07:02 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeD4
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevRyd View Post
No one puts it all together like BMW, and that is why it is the ultimate driving machine.
What page of the New Owner Guide did you read this quote on? I wanna cut it out and glue-stick it to a collage on my bedroom wall.
More or less what MT said


1st Place: BMW 335i xdrive
Featuring the best combination of everything, the latest 3 Series just doesn't have any glaring flaws. It's still the master of the segment it created.
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      07-16-2013, 07:20 AM   #43
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I think that is a very fair statement given the results of this article. No copy, not in the Manual, no brochure, no marketing

Kevin


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Originally Posted by JoeD4 View Post
What page of the New Owner Guide did you read this quote on? I wanna cut it out and glue-stick it to a collage on my bedroom wall.
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      07-16-2013, 10:15 AM   #44
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German power!!!!
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