[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by Ghetto2315

And I laugh at Audi fanboys when they try and compare an S4 to the M3 when it doesn't even live up to a 335.

If you like soft handling then you are correct that the S4 doesn't live up to the 335 but if you like sporty performance than the 335i in this review does not live up to the brand motto nor to the ATS or S4. Maybe you should read the article first.
The S4 shouldn't be compared to the M3 as that is the property of RS cars.

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by 300hp

They even made a nice little video of the S4 vs F30 335i RWD.

Everything had been done, they needed something new

MT doesn't have a clue what they are doing. How does the RWD lose against the S4 but the 335Xi win. 335i RWD is just as luxurious as the 335Xi but the RWD handles better since the 335xi is higher and doesn't have the sport suspension. Yes the Xi goes faster in a straight line but not in corners. If you look at the two articles it seems like the Xi is more luxurious than the RWD.
I guess either Audi forked out more money last review or BMW paid more for this review.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

If you like soft handling then you are correct that the S4 doesn't live up to the 335 but if you like sporty performance than the 335i in this review does not live up to the brand motto nor to the ATS or S4. Maybe you should read the article first.
The S4 shouldn't be compared to the M3 as that is the property of RS cars.

I think the S4 does not hold a candle to the ATS either. Both the 335 and the S4 were not exactly super stars in the ride and handling section. Just go through it again. BTW the ATS was beaten by the 335i in everything that is quantifiable, including figure 8.

No doubt the ATS is a super star but it still needs refinement.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

MT doesn't have a clue what they are doing. How does the RWD lose against the S4 but the 335Xi win. 335i RWD is just as luxurious as the 335Xi but the RWD handles better since the 335xi is higher and doesn't have the sport suspension. Yes the Xi goes faster in a straight line but not in corners. If you look at the two articles it seems like the Xi is more luxurious than the RWD.
I guess either Audi forked out more money last review or BMW paid more for this review.

I think everyone on this F30 forum is a little too obsessed with who "won" these comparisons. I don't really see this mentality in other forums or other parts of bimmerpost. Do you guys remember writing argumentative essays in school/college? These are opinions and often just like our own essays, heavily influenced by whatever bias they have. It's pretty clear that Carlos Lago likes the S4, while John Liberman (sp?) really likes the F30. Hell, that other guy in the chat section said he'd take the S4. Each article is written to sell magazines, not be published in technical reports.

Also, using all this transitive logic with Motor trend reviews is just stupid. One review has nothing to do with another aside from them doing the same 3 performance tests. i remember one the other day that had the IS250 win because it had better powertrain "flexibility."

[300hp]

Originally Posted by drob23

I think everyone on this F30 forum is a little too obsessed with who "won" these comparisons. I don't really see this mentality in other forums or other parts of bimmerpost. Do you guys remember writing argumentative essays in school/college? These are opinions and often just like our own essays, heavily influenced by whatever bias they have. It's pretty clear that Carlos Lago likes the S4, while John Liberman (sp?) really likes the F30. Hell, that other guy in the chat section said he'd take the S4. Each article is written to sell magazines, not be published in technical reports.

Also, using all this transitive logic with Motor trend reviews is just stupid. One review has nothing to do with another aside from them doing the same 3 performance tests. i remember one the other day that had the IS250 win because it had better powertrain "flexibility."

Nah I don't think it's obsession. I have learnt that this place is good because it corrects any biases we might have due to multiple opinions being shared and people sharing their support or evidence that their view point is correct.

I came in here thinking the 328i was like the E90 328i which was severely underpowered. After multiple corrections I now sing the F30 328i praises. I was corrected.

Seeing things from different perspective is good, it's ironed out here and hopefully a consensus reached. That's the beauty if this place and that's why it's the largest. I especially like the intercontinental participation we see here.

Stupid phone and spelling errors

[r3dbimmer89]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

My F30 335i with DHP is nowhere near "Soft" so shop your BS Elswhere

Kevin

It's not soft compared to a FWD Accord but compared to its current competition it is SOFT.

[FogCityM3]

Lago usually has a different opinion vs the MT editors and his content is focused for online. Actually if you see some of his videos driving the M cars and other high performance models, the guy actually knows how to drive pretty well and hits the pros/cons generally spot on, so his performance-centric opinion carries some weight in my book.

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

MT doesn't have a clue what they are doing. How does the RWD lose against the S4 but the 335Xi win. 335i RWD is just as luxurious as the 335Xi but the RWD handles better since the 335xi is higher and doesn't have the sport suspension. Yes the Xi goes faster in a straight line but not in corners. If you look at the two articles it seems like the Xi is more luxurious than the RWD.
I guess either Audi forked out more money last review or BMW paid more for this review.

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by 300hp

They even made a nice little video of the S4 vs F30 335i RWD.

Everything had been done, they needed something new

Originally Posted by 300hp

I think the S4 does not hold a candle to the ATS either. Both the 335 and the S4 were not exactly super stars in the ride and handling section. Just go through it again. BTW the ATS was beaten by the 335i in everything that is quantifiable, including figure 8.

No doubt the ATS is a super star but it still needs refinement.

Originally Posted by 300hp

Nah I don't think it's obsession. I have learnt that this place is good because it corrects any biases we might have due to multiple opinions being shared and people sharing their support or evidence that their view point is correct.

I came in here thinking the 328i was like the E90 328i which was severely underpowered. After multiple corrections I now sing the F30 328i praises. I was corrected.

Seeing things from different perspective is good, it's ironed out here and hopefully a consensus reached. That's the beauty if this place and that's why it's the largest. I especially like the intercontinental participation we see here.

Stupid phone and spelling errors

You sure you have no bias? Saying that the S4 does not hold a candle to the ATS and then saying that the 335 beat the ATS in everything quantifiable? First the S4 beat the ATS in all the handling/performance metrics buy a wide margin over the ATS and 335i. The only arena maybe where the S4 lost may be in term of steering feel. Also the ATS had all season tires so it may be closer to the S4 numbers which would leave the 335i behind also in terms of handling/performance.
The whole review not only the numbers are saying the S4 was the performance/handling champ.

"The S4 was the runaway champ around our figure-eight loop, laying down a world-class time of 24.9 seconds."

The Audi S4 is the numbers champ of this test, and it's no slouch in the real world. "This car was just so easy and fun to toss around the canyons," said associate online editor Erick Ayapana."

"Oddly, the BMW features the laziest handling here. As you're probably aware, BMW has been drifting away from its Ultimate Driving Machine image for several years now, moving more toward a techno/luxury future anchored by ferocious straight-line speed. Said Lago, "I don't like the steering." What's wrong with it? Like the S4s, it's detached. "Steering actually has some feel. Not a lot, but some," he continued. Adding all that AWD hardware sure didn't help the 335ix out. Kong noted that the BMW "feels ready to oversteer." Its ride was the softest of the group"

So tell me what are you reading? I think you have some biasness.

Look I am not going to tell you the S4 is a better all around car as it is getting old and needs to be updated, but in term of performance/handling it tops the new f30 simple as that. I even told someone to buy the f30 in another thread because the f30 is newer. I am not saying the f30 is a piece of shit as it is a very very nice car. I am just saying that BMW needs to move back in the direction of more performance/handling instead of luxury if they want to maintain the motto of the Ultimate DRIVING Machine and to keep enthusiasts onboard.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

You sure you have no bias? Saying that the S4 does not hold a candle to the ATS and then saying that the 335 beat the ATS in everything quantifiable? First the S4 beat the ATS in all the handling/performance metrics buy a wide margin over the ATS and 335i. The only arena maybe where the S4 lost may be in term of steering feel. Also the ATS had all season tires so it may be closer to the S4 numbers which would leave the 335i behind also in terms of handling/performance.
The whole review not only the numbers are saying the S4 was the performance/handling champ.

"The S4 was the runaway champ around our figure-eight loop, laying down a world-class time of 24.9 seconds."

The Audi S4 is the numbers champ of this test, and it's no slouch in the real world. "This car was just so easy and fun to toss around the canyons," said associate online editor Erick Ayapana."

"Oddly, the BMW features the laziest handling here. As you're probably aware, BMW has been drifting away from its Ultimate Driving Machine image for several years now, moving more toward a techno/luxury future anchored by ferocious straight-line speed. Said Lago, "I don't like the steering." What's wrong with it? Like the S4s, it's detached. "Steering actually has some feel. Not a lot, but some," he continued. Adding all that AWD hardware sure didn't help the 335ix out. Kong noted that the BMW "feels ready to oversteer." Its ride was the softest of the group"

So tell me what are you reading? I think you have some biasness.

Look I am not going to tell you the S4 is a better all around car as it is getting old and needs to be updated, but in term of performance/handling it tops the new f30 simple as that. I even told someone to buy the f30 in another thread because the f30 is newer. I am not saying the f30 is a piece of shit as it is a very very nice car. I am just saying that BMW needs to move back in the direction of more performance/handling instead of luxury if they want to maintain the motto of the Ultimate DRIVING Machine and to keep enthusiasts onboard.

Here you go

"The Cadillac outshone everyone else in one single category: Ride and handling. In terms of smiles produced and fun to drive, no other car was even close."

Both the 335i and S4 beat the ATS in everything quantifiable but it's clear as daylight that ride and handling went to the ATS, no one holds a candle to the ATS iro of that.

I can't speculate what could or would not have happened with change in tires. We can also change the 335i tires. Lets work with what we have.

[300hp]

Let me just add this so we are clear no car was even close to the ATS in ride and handling:

Ride and Handling
Winner, Cadillac. As associate online editor Benson Kong found, "Ride is firm all the time, in a good, sporty way." Benson was hardly alone. "Clearly the majority of the funding for this car went to the chassis. The handling is superb. You can just thrash this car and it keeps wanting more," said associate editor Scott Evans. Why so darn good? Associate road test editor Carlos Lago nailed it: "I, for quite some time, forgot it's all-wheel drive. It even has the smoothest ride of the group at moderate speeds." The ATS4 is of course the only car in this group equipped with game-changing magnetorheological shocks, the same ones licensed to Ferrari. The Caddy is also -- incredibly -- the lightest. Of course, the ATS showed up on all-season tires, which hurt its braking distance and figure-eight time compared with other any ATS we've tested, but it truly was the best to drive.

[KevRyd]

The real truth here is that the 335i MSport is the most exclusive of all F30's it is the smallest sub-set within the F30 line. There are a lot less of them than the 328i. So lets face it even on these boards owner's of the 335i Msports are a very small minority. Its easy for everyone to sit back and take pot shots! F30 328 owners, E9X owners. Add in xDrive and it is even a bigger target. I just can't understand all the hate for the F30 in general and spacific the F30 335i xDrive. The car looses some early compares and everyone else is so happy that BMW lost. Now they win a comp and everyone crawls out of the woodwork to cast dispersion on what is actually a very good class leading car. I give up, think what you want. If you really think the ATS is the best car then why don't you put your money where your mouth is and go out and get one. Like the Lexus or the S4, go straight to the dealership and trade up.

Kevin

Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89

It's not soft compared to a FWD Accord but compared to its current competition it is SOFT.

[300hp]

I will also extend my own thesis, even though I have spoken against others theories. Feel free to decimate it.

ATS beats S4 which beat E9x 335i in terms of ride and handling. We are all enthusiasts who would rather ride E30 M3s so who cares about the numbers right. After all the enthusiast would rather be in the E30 than the E92 M3.

Why then would a self professed enthusiast not ditch the BMW and get the ATS? This is the E46 we have all been salivating about since well the E46

[KevRyd]

And what car do you own?

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

If you like soft handling then you are correct that the S4 doesn't live up to the 335 but if you like sporty performance than the 335i in this review does not live up to the brand motto nor to the ATS or S4. Maybe you should read the article first.
The S4 shouldn't be compared to the M3 as that is the property of RS cars.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

The real truth here is that the 335i MSport is the most exclusive of all F30's it is the smallest sub-set within the F30 line. There are a lot less of them than the 328i. So lets face it even on these boards owner's of the 335i Msports are a very small minority. Its easy for everyone to sit back and take pot shots! F30 328 owners, E9X owners. Add in xDrive and it is even a bigger target. I just can't understand all the hate for the F30 in general and spacific the F30 335i xDrive. The car looses some early compares and everyone else is so happy that BMW lost. Now they win a comp and everyone crawls out of the woodwork to cast dispersion on what is actually a very good class leading car. I give up, think what you want. If you really think the ATS is the best car then why don't you put your money where your mouth is and go out and get one. Like the Lexus or the S4, go straight to the dealership and trade up.

Kevin

+1000000

You hit the nail on the head "trade up" to the modern day E46 and call it a day, enthusiast credentials in tow and watch us "non enthusiasts" ride along with our silly ass grins.

[TwinPowerF30]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

I know the IS is a sedan, but didn't the 335 not have xDrive (at least for the coupe variant) in the initial production run?

It's not unlike manufacturers to delay the AWD variant for a few months or a year when it's a new chassis, even for BMW.

Saw a 2014 IS 350 AWD at the dealership here in North Vancouver, Canada.

[addm]

Originally Posted by drob23

I think everyone on this F30 forum is a little too obsessed with who "won" these comparisons. I don't really see this mentality in other forums or other parts of bimmerpost. Do you guys remember writing argumentative essays in school/college? These are opinions and often just like our own essays, heavily influenced by whatever bias they have. It's pretty clear that Carlos Lago likes the S4, while John Liberman (sp?) really likes the F30. Hell, that other guy in the chat section said he'd take the S4. Each article is written to sell magazines, not be published in technical reports.

Also, using all this transitive logic with Motor trend reviews is just stupid. One review has nothing to do with another aside from them doing the same 3 performance tests. i remember one the other day that had the IS250 win because it had better powertrain "flexibility."

So true.
I have hard time trusting these magazines. If the cars are close enough in performance and handling, they will award first place to whichever they want or have bias for. There is so much subjective analysis in these reviews.
Tires are one of the things which can affect the outcome so much and are often unmatched in the reviews.
I have hard time accepting an xdrive 335i can win an comparo which is lost by 335i unless and until you are only looking at straight line performance gain with MPPPk

[Craigito]

I really liked the 328 loaner I had (except for the ridiculously huge door pocket that made it nearly impossible to get comfy with my left leg). I bet the 335i is a hoot.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by weiweiwei

Saw a 2014 IS 350 AWD at the dealership here in North Vancouver, Canada.

I think Toyota does something weird with AWD dealer allocations, where you can't get AWD in certain parts of the USA. I frankly don't understand why you'd get AWD anyways if you live in Socal or Florida.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by addm

So true.
I have hard time trusting these magazines. If the cars are close enough in performance and handling, they will award first place to whichever they want or have bias for. There is so much subjective analysis in these reviews.
Tires are one of the things which can affect the outcome so much and are often unmatched in the reviews.
I have hard time accepting an xdrive 335i can win an comparo which is lost by 335i unless and until you are only looking at straight line performance gain with MPPPk

You cannot bring a 300/300 car to a party with the S4. The battle is lost before you even start both cars. That's why BMW offers the PPK so they can at least compete with the beast known as the S4.

On the subject of PPK it does more than increase power. It changes more aspects of the car for the better. This is detailed in the N55 section.

[ATX78703]

Originally Posted by 300hp

You cannot bring a 300/300 car to a party with the S4. The battle is lost before you even start both cars. That's why BMW offers the PPK so they can at least compete with the beast known as the S4.

On the subject of PPK it does more than increase power. It changes more aspects of the car for the better. This is detailed in the N55 section.

Really? I disagree. especially when the 300/300 car is about 400 lbs lighter (in RWD trim), better weight balance, peak torque at 1300 and a wider band. Life is not about 0-60, launch control and quattro. For those that need more there is the MPPK. But I would hardly say the MPPK is "necessary" to simply compete.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by ATX78703

Really? I disagree. especially when the 300/300 car is about 400 lbs lighter (in RWD trim), better weight balance, peak torque at 1300 and a wider band. Life is not about 0-60, launch control and quattro. For those that need more there is the MPPK. But I would hardly say the MPPK is "necessary" to simply compete.

Awd weighs 3710 rwd weights about 3600.

MT said the 335i won because of 0-60? I did not see that.

Anyway history is on my side on this one. The 300/300 car never won a single comparison over the S4.

[ATX78703]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Awd weighs 3710 rwd weights about 3600.

MT said the 335i won because of 0-60? I did not see that.

Anyway history is on my side on this one. The 300/300 car never won a single comparison over the S4.

you're putting too much into car mags, man. again saying a 300/300 car "can't even compete" is laughable.