[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

I agree with most of what you said but we can't say whoever buys a BMW is a enthusiast. Most, I'd argue are buying it because of brand name and prestige or got a promo and wanna upgrade from a Camry and onto a BMW. I also think these people are the majority. Having said that I'm with you that BMW should improve the steering and give us back the E90 feel back. I'm hoping here that they are reading this and hopefully make improvements just like they did to the chassis of the 340..,

Yes, most 3 series owners are far from enthusiasts, that wasn't the point I was making.

My point was that none of us who buy these cars new are what we call a normal driver. Even more so for the guys in Canada and across the big lakes because they cost a small fortune.

Normal people drive what they drive because that's usually all they can. You and I could have purchased these or any number of other driver's cars, even higher up the ego chain.

I don't care about the non-enthusiast. Next time they're more likely to buy the Lexus cause it's cuter, or the Audi cause "IT guys seem to buy Audi", or some other bullshit.

However small our population is, a 3 series can count a percentage of owners to be true enthusiasts, we're why this brand is so dang popular even with 4 decades of Spartan interiors and spotty dependability. Fact holds that BMWs were for the folks who give a damn about the driving. Screw the status, toys, rare hides, and purty crap; the cars just used to feel like your driving was building up to an orgasm. (A Porsche is a raging orgasm in comparison).

Anyway, they don't feel quite like that these days unless it's an ///M, so that's a problem for us; we want BMW to change some of that.

We want more sex back in our drive!

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

My point was that none of us who buy these cars new are what we call a normal driver......

Anyway, they don't feel quite like that these days unless it's an ///M, so that's a problem for us; we want BMW to change some of that.

Enthusiasts are not the normal BMW driver these days.

BMW made the decision years back to dump being exclusive and develop the true potential for the company and widen the market for their cars. Result, they are still in business, shrewd move to build a bigger iconic brand.

Let's be realistic here, take our UK motorway system through the Midlands on a work day, dominated by BMW, Audi and Merc, for the high mile reps, managers and executives. The 3-series is the BMW workhorse, driven 15 - 40k mile a year by the kind of user who values the brand. Mostly mid range diesel models. These buyers including the fleet buyers want more than just a driver's car, comforts, softer ride quality are high on the list of requirements. Emissions, lease and service costs being key factors on most users list. Of course this all leads to compromises, but the 3-series is still high up there, mostly rated as best of the competition.

The new Audi A4 is upping the stakes on ride quality and comfort, shows how our market is demanding more than simply a driver focused premium choice. The big three over here know what the customer wants, and going back to the simpler 'hard core' BMW 'feel' is not the key buying requirement, the drive has to be good, but not necessarily the focus.

As I've said before, I've been around BMW from New Class days, so do have a few years seeing the BMW evolution. I honestly see improvement generation on generation. I'd rather be in a current BMW than go back to "the good old days" with blinkered reflection. Of course there are issues, not everyone moves with, or want the changes, which BMW or governmental legislation dictates. LCI models typically address the key issues, but not necessarily please everyone, as sometimes what we want we can't actually have.

Add in how the world has moved on, priorities change, legislation pushes BMW in to features and functions we'd rather they'd ignore. But emissions, noise levels, etc., limit the way BMW and the other marques can develop their cars. I'm sure BMW would have loved to stay with HPAS, but steering has to be more energy efficient, that's a fact, plus some folks want the options EPS will give them, like park assist, lane departure warnings, etc.

I'm not sure all in the US are aware of the punitive penalties which are on the European manufacturers, if they don't meet emission targets. Be thankful many European drivers are willing to drive small 4-pot diesel engines, or BMW would be in big trouble, bigger petrol engines would be at greater risk.

There is always the M-car for those who want the best BMW can offer for the enthusiast, but even the M-cars have to move with the times.

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Enthusiasts are not the normal BMW driver these days.

BMW made the decision years back to dump being exclusive and develop the true potential for the company and widen the market for their cars. Result, they are still in business, shrewd move to build a bigger iconic brand.

Let's be realistic here, take our UK motorway system through the Midlands on a work day, dominated by BMW, Audi and Merc, for the high mile reps, managers and executives. The 3-series is the BMW workhorse, driven 15 - 40k mile a year by the kind of user who values the brand. Mostly mid range diesel models. These buyers including the fleet buyers want more than just a driver's car, comforts, softer ride quality are high on the list of requirements. Emissions, lease and service costs being key factors on most users list. Of course this all leads to compromises, but the 3-series is still high up there, mostly rated as best of the competition.

The new Audi A4 is upping the stakes on ride quality and comfort, shows how our market is demanding more than simply a driver focused premium choice. The big three over here know what the customer wants, and going back to the simpler 'hard core' BMW 'feel' is not the key buying requirement, the drive has to be good, but not necessarily the focus.

As I've said before, I've been around BMW from New Class days, so do have a few years seeing the BMW evolution. I honestly see improvement generation on generation. I'd rather be in a current BMW than go back to "the good old days" with blinkered reflection. Of course there are issues, not everyone moves with, or want the changes, which BMW or governmental legislation dictates. LCI models typically address the key issues, but not necessarily please everyone, as sometimes what we want we can't actually have.

Add in how the world has moved on, priorities change, legislation pushes BMW in to features and functions we'd rather they'd ignore. But emissions, noise levels, etc., limit the way BMW and the other marques can develop their cars. I'm sure BMW would have loved to stay with HPAS, but steering has to be more energy efficient, that's a fact, plus some folks want the options EPS will give them, like park assist, lane departure warnings, etc.

I'm not sure all in the US are aware of the punitive penalties which are on the European manufacturers, if they don't meet emission targets. Be thankful many European drivers are willing to drive small 4-pot diesel engines, or BMW would be in big trouble, bigger petrol engines would be at greater risk.

There is always the M-car for those who want the best BMW can offer for the enthusiast, but even the M-cars have to move with the times.

Thanks as always Pete, your prospective is always welcome and informative.

When I speak of the "normal driver", that means more socioeconomic than anything else. They have limited options.

Those of us who can afford to buy these cars new have lots of options. When you take away the badge whores, who have no loyalty to a brand only an esthetic (symbols of social class), you're then left with those of us who can discern a good car, from the mediocre. BMW needs to again focus on being beyond mediocre.

Here in the US, there's this new Chevy commercial, yes, Chevy, that has a car with all badging removed where some rep leads a "normal driver" focus group tour of the car in some fancy home on the California coast.

The people are asked "who makes this car?" These numb nuts go on to say how it reminds them of an Audi, a BMW, a Lexus. Then they lament that it must cost $60K, or $80K range says the women with the British accent....

My observation is that these poor souls have no idea about anything related to a car; the men or the women. All they see is a badge on a car that "looks pricey", and when they can get their hands on one, any one, that's what they'll do. You can't trust or count on people like that to purchase multiple cars from your brand.

I've got 2 rather new Bimmers sitting at home now, makes like 11. You've had a ton over the years; why? Because you can afford it and spend your money on what you know you're driving.

.... That car by the way was a goddamn Chevy Malibu, a $25K car. People don't realize how cheap it is to add toys to a car, it's what's going on under foot where things get interesting.

[Blubaron79]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Thanks as always Pete, your prospective is always welcome and informative.

When I speak of the "normal driver", that means more socioeconomic than anything else. They have limited options.

Those of us who can afford to buy these cars new have lots of options. When you take away the badge whores, who have no loyalty to a brand only an esthetic (symbols of social class), you're then left with those of us who can discern a good car, from the mediocre. BMW needs to again focus on being beyond mediocre.

Here in the US, there's this new Chevy commercial, yes, Chevy, that has a car with all badging removed where some rep leads a "normal driver" focus group tour of the car in some fancy home on the California coast.

The people are asked "who makes this car?" These numb nuts go on to say how it reminds them of an Audi, a BMW, a Lexus. Then they lament that it must cost $60K, or $80K range says the women with the British accent....

My observation is that these poor souls have no idea about anything related to a car; the men or the women. All they see is a badge on a car that "looks pricey", and when they can get their hands on one, any one, that's what they'll do. You can't trust or count on people like that to purchase multiple cars from your brand.

I've got 2 rather new Bimmers sitting at home now, makes like 11. You've had a ton over the years; why? Because you can afford it and spend your money on what you know you're driving.

.... That car by the way was a goddamn Chevy Malibu, a $25K car. People don't realize how cheap it is to add toys to a car, it's what's going on under foot where things get interesting.

Yes. Props to Pete. And that Chevy commercial is hilarious. My dad owned a 2010 Malibu. At first he loved it. 2 years into ownership he was ready to dump the car into lake due to its harsh under powered engine and the interior falling apart..

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Thanks as always Pete, your prospective is always welcome and informative.

When I speak of the "normal driver", that means more socioeconomic than anything else. They have limited options.

Those of us who can afford to buy these cars new have lots of options. When you take away the badge whores, who have no loyalty to a brand only an esthetic (symbols of social class), you're then left with those of us who can discern a good car, from the mediocre. BMW needs to again focus on being beyond mediocre.

Here in the US, there's this new Chevy commercial, yes, Chevy, that has a car with all badging removed where some rep leads a "normal driver" focus group tour of the car in some fancy home on the California coast.

The people are asked "who makes this car?" These numb nuts go on to say how it reminds them of an Audi, a BMW, a Lexus. Then they lament that it must cost $60K, or $80K range says the women with the British accent....

My observation is that these poor souls have no idea about anything related to a car; the men or the women. All they see is a badge on a car that "looks pricey", and when they can get their hands on one, any one, that's what they'll do. You can't trust or count on people like that to purchase multiple cars from your brand.

I've got 2 rather new Bimmers sitting at home now, makes like 11. You've had a ton over the years; why? Because you can afford it and spend your money on what you know you're driving.

.... That car by the way was a goddamn Chevy Malibu, a $25K car. People don't realize how cheap it is to add toys to a car, it's what's going on under foot where things get interesting.

Hmmmm, I agree with you and Pete

[Jbrock22]

The 3 series has grown larger and a bit softer one the years. So have many of us.
The 2 series is its replacement. There was a time when the 5 series was highly rated. So the 2 replaced the 3, the 3 replaced the 5. And the 5 is a small 7.
If they simply renamed the 2 to 3, the auto magazines would be calling it a bench mark again. Its all in the name. In the mean time the 2 is too small for many of us, so we pick the 3. And the 5 they can keep.

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Here in the US, there's this new Chevy commercial, yes, Chevy, that has a car with all badging removed where some rep leads a "normal driver" focus group tour of the car in some fancy home on the California coast.

The people are asked "who makes this car?" These numb nuts go on to say how it reminds them of an Audi, a BMW, a Lexus. Then they lament that it must cost $60K, or $80K range says the women with the British accent....

.... That car by the way was a goddamn Chevy Malibu, a $25K car. People don't realize how cheap it is to add toys to a car, it's what's going on under foot where things get interesting.

This commercial proves the point that most people know nothing about cars, or they'd recognize the car as a mainstream, mid-size sedan from GM, not an $80K Audi.

That being said, I've seen a few on the road, and for a mainstream car, the new Malibu a fine looking vehicle in the segment.

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

This commercial proves the point that most people know nothing about cars, or they'd recognize the car as a mainstream, mid-size sedan from GM, not an $80K Audi.

That being said, I've seen a few on the road, and for a mainstream car, the new Malibu a fine looking vehicle in the segment.

Yes, it does seem like a good mainstream car; a few posts ago I say that the normal drivers have better cars then they did even 10 years ago.

However, I personally could never find a FWD good; call me aloof if you wish, but I think this because I know better. Most if not all of you guys on this forum know better as well.

Some BMW brand whores have no idea their car is RWD; these people I want to banish from the brand.

You've even stated often the research you conduct on cars and test drives, then post your observations; that's the kind of driver I can respect. No matter if you choose a Bimmer or not, just be focused on the drive.

[chiefneil]

Originally Posted by bimmernole

I'm very excited to be receiving my 340i next week. It will be the first BMW that I personally own. No matter what any car magazine writes, I know I will enjoy the car. I consider myself a enthusiast in that I enjoy talking about cars, I know some info about them and I've always been fascinated with sports or sportier type cars. That being said, I am not a race car driver. I am not even a weekend track person. I won't notice a damn thing that is "wrong" with the steering or anything else for that matter because the car will be great to me and most people. Sometimes these magazines act like everyone is Mario Andretti.

Gratz man, enjoy your car!

[HighlandPete]

I find these sort of threads quite enlightening, often more about our expectations than the actual car being evaluated.

I sense there are two main issues here, first the car as a package, and then the specifics, like steering and suspension.

As a package I feel BMW have got it pretty right, have done for years, or there wouldn't be the sales or the aspirations to own and drive one.

I suppose it depends where we see BMW. Many see the brand as a premium, cost efficient package, fleet managers included. I can only clearly see it from the UK market, where costs often favour buying the premium brands like BMW, as it controls costs, and there are more personal 'rewards' in driving a BMW, even if not perfect according to the enthusiast.

Many over here will be driving the BMW as a daily driver, guys like myself choosing a model as the only means of transport. Has to work loaded, for passengers and give some pleasure in driving at all times. This means compromises are taken on board as a matter of course. The "BMW" is not going to be sitting in a garage to be admired, or kept out of the rain. It is a tool after all, has to earn its keep.

I recall the time over here where an astute accountant would recommend a business user taking on a BMW (or Mercedes) as a company vehicle, as it was more cost effective, simply better value for money than the Ford or equivalent, even cheaper long term. Add the 'perk' factor for company users and the formula for driving a premium model was almost set in stone.

That still stands for many, who would prefer the Ford, even if the steering is rated to give better feedback? We've had Ford "Mondeo man" over here, he now aspires to and likely drives a BMW.

Then we have the steering and suspension to deal with, where is the benchmark? E21? E30? E36? E46? E90? I could open out the discussion (and quote motor mags') to highlight it isn't straight forward. Even the E46 which for some reason many feel set the standard, was deficient, had to be improved in the production period. The E90 improved on some of the E46's steering shortfall.

Then we had issues with the steering/suspension on the E9x. Even many loyal BMW users gave BMW an ear bashing, due to the near impossibility to get a decent setup which worked to user needs.

We in the UK were not getting the ideal setup, both SE and M-sport suspensions were highly criticised, as they just didn't work over here for many users, the steering was also corrupted by the suspension and wheel selection. I'm aware BMW ran test mules over here, right up through the country, trying to get the damping right. LCI models ran much better due to tweaks primarily in damping rates. I personally had a Bridgestone Field Engineer in my E91 wagon, he commented on the damping not working on the roads I drove. When I tested the first F30 on my type of surfaces, it was the first 3-series BMW of modern times which I rated. To me it was "at last" BMW are getting the blend of characteristics back to what BMW used to be.

We could go on, even steering feel is subjective and has a personal perspective. One man's good feedback can to another driver, have negative interference and unwanted 'noise' from the road. Then we have to take on-board, are we all comparing like for like? We have so many variables, standard steering, servotronic and VSS, RWD and xDrive, plus different wheels and tires in the mix. Anyone who enjoys driving knows how a simple change of tire brand/specification can radically change a car, let alone all the other variables. What hope to please everyone with multiple build combinations? BMW please some users, disappoint others.

It is all a set of compromises and has to take in the widest market.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Jbrock22

The 3 series has grown larger and a bit softer one the years. So have many of us.
The 2 series is its replacement. There was a time when the 5 series was highly rated. So the 2 replaced the 3, the 3 replaced the 5. And the 5 is a small 7.
If they simply renamed the 2 to 3, the auto magazines would be calling it a bench mark again. Its all in the name. In the mean time the 2 is too small for many of us, so we pick the 3. And the 5 they can keep.

Add in the weight penalty as well (primarily safety and creature comforts) and we are in a completely different place.

Over here in the UK many yearn for the "big car feel" in a small car, which we now appear to get, by size and what weight adds to the feel.

BTW, don't discard the 5, I'm a 5-series driver and love it to bits. But agree on size, it is bigger than my father's 7 -series of the past, when I thought they were far too big.

[x986]

Great posts, 'General'Pete. Even though we drive on the wrong side of the road here, I couldn't agree with you more. However, I think it is amazing that BMW tries as hard as it does to make the car that we want. How many of our fellow forum members are here to discuss more serious matters such as: "What color should I get?" "Does this blue match my eyes?"

After a brief foray into AMGdom, I'm back and waiting for a 340 that seems to be lost at sea. When the 340 starts to age in my affections, I'll probably sniff other brands, but stay true to BMW. In the vernacular, they sweat the small stuff. In '07.5 they cared enough to make a mid-year improvement on the I-drive system, (they added physical programmable buttons - and the color blue that I loved and bought.) Mr. Dinan added a few ponies under the hood, and I kept that car for 7 years. No car before has ever kept my interest for anything approaching that period of time.

[G80indy]

Originally Posted by x986

Great posts, 'General'Pete. Even though we drive on the wrong side of the road here, I couldn't agree with you more. However, I think it is amazing that BMW tries as hard as it does to make the car that we want. How many of our fellow forum members are here to discuss more serious matters such as: "What color should I get?" "Does this blue match my eyes?"

After a brief foray into AMGdom, I'm back and waiting for a 340 that seems to be lost at sea. When the 340 starts to age in my affections, I'll probably sniff other brands, but stay true to BMW. In the vernacular, they sweat the small stuff. In '07.5 they cared enough to make a mid-year improvement on the I-drive system, (they added physical programmable buttons - and the color blue that I loved and bought.) Mr. Dinan added a few ponies under the hood, and I kept that car for 7 years. No car before has ever kept my interest for anything approaching that period of time.

I could say the same for my e46 330 remaining a fun car to drive for almost 14 years. Breaks all records for me.

[Firaxis]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

*Snip

I agree with an addition to what Pete was saying, whilst many see BMW as a "premium" sector car. Over in Europe / UK, the 3 series isn't priced that way.

A 335D / 340I once discounts have been introduced settles around the same price as a high end Ford Mondeo. For that money, you do get an all round better driving experience. Factoring cost there is nothing that comes close..

With that in mind, we have to re-adjust our perspective. Fact of the matter is in Europe BMW's sell by the boat load, we are one of if not THE biggest markets for BMW.

Most BMW's over here are 320 / 420d's made for mile munching, you'll see the odd (older) 335I and / or 335D but they're a minority. Because nobody really buys high end mid sized sedans over here, it's a dying market in Europe..

So as much as we'd like them to be a "premium" product with advanced driver dynamics that are thrilling. Over here that's not what they're about, they're extremely common, relatively cheap and a great all rounder. The three series is not really viewed as a "premium" driver focussed car anymore.

[G80indy]

Ouch
Quite an epitaph you wrote for the "Ultimate Driving Machine" delivering "Sheer Driving Pleasure."
The US is the largest market, with China a close 2nd although their economy is slowing considerably ...

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by 330indy

Ouch
Quite an epitaph you wrote for the "Ultimate Driving Machine" delivering "Sheer Driving Pleasure."
The US is the largest market, with China a close 2nd although their economy is slowing considerably ...

To note: the U.S. is the largest market in spite of BMW being marketed, sold and priced as a luxury brand, rather than more mainstream (like Europe).

[Firaxis]

Originally Posted by 330indy

Ouch
Quite an epitaph you wrote for the "Ultimate Driving Machine" delivering "Sheer Driving Pleasure."
The US is the largest market, with China a close 2nd although their economy is slowing considerably ...

Not for the 3 / 4 series it certainly isn't, in 2015:

Europe: 215,792
USA: 140,609

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by Firaxis

Not for the 3 / 4 series it certainly isn't, in 2015:

Europe: 215,792
USA: 140,609

You're comparing a continent to one, single country. BMW's European sales are almost double the United States. China edged the U.S. as BMW's largest market in 2013. The U.S. is second.

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by Firaxis

I agree with an addition to what Pete was saying, whilst many see BMW as a "premium" sector car. Over in Europe / UK, the 3 series isn't priced that way.

A 335D / 340I once discounts have been introduced settles around the same price as a high end Ford Mondeo. For that money, you do get an all round better driving experience. Factoring cost there is nothing that comes close..

With that in mind, we have to re-adjust our perspective. Fact of the matter is in Europe BMW's sell by the boat load, we are one of if not THE biggest markets for BMW.

Most BMW's over here are 320 / 420d's made for mile munching, you'll see the odd (older) 335I and / or 335D but they're a minority. Because nobody really buys high end mid sized sedans over here, it's a dying market in Europe..

So as much as we'd like them to be a "premium" product with advanced driver dynamics that are thrilling. Over here that's not what they're about, they're extremely common, relatively cheap and a great all rounder. The three series is not really viewed as a "premium" driver focussed car anymore.

Ok, but let's talk about WHY they're so cheap in Europe shall we?

Since I work in global finance and investments, I'll drop a few economic observational realities....

Outside of Germany, Europe has no real industries; it's all service, almost exclusively.

Beyond that, Europe has no natural resources; thus the import of almost everything.

European taxation is downright silly or high as hell.

Point? Point is other than the old money, most Europeans can't afford high end anything. Only the very well educated and well bred can afford anything of substance.

Europe has no middle class, ANYWHERE!

So... If BMW is going to sell anything on its home continent, it has to sell cheap, just like everybody else.

This is why the top markets for anything are the United States by a large margin, followed by China.

The US has wealth, we have almost all of it. China has, well, too many people; new money at that, so they spend like children/new money.

Manufacturers sell premium to us simply because we can afford it.

BMW aspires to luxury, just as most do, they can't help that the home markets are small, so they cater to who have the money, that's us!

[Firaxis]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

You're comparing a continent to one, single country. BMW's European sales are almost double the United States. China edged the U.S. as BMW's largest market in 2013. The U.S. is second.

Not sure what your point is?

You say Europe's sales are double the US, but then the US is BMW's largest market?

The US is a collection of states y'know which is around two and a half times the size of Europe, whilst the population of the US is estimated around 565 million and Europe is 742 Million.

So not as different as you may think.. Irrelvant of that, it doesn't make them any less popular in the UK, it doesn't change the fact that they are priced with mainstream rivals and it really makes no difference.

Interesting tidbit though, the UK bought nearly as many Ford Fiesta's as the whole of the US bought BMW's in 2015.. Not surprising based on price / what they are, but it shows which way the market went over here. A couple of years back it was the BMW 3 series as a front runner.

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

You're comparing a continent to one, single country. BMW's European sales are almost double the United States. China edged the U.S. as BMW's largest market in 2013. The U.S. is second.

Number of cars isn't the best measure. That's not how it works in business. Unit sales numbers are what the media push out to... well... those who don't understand business.

The measure used by BMW is profit margin per unit sold. The US cars are more expensive than those across Europe, so...

The US is BMWs top market. Just check the next quarterly report if you wish to do a little fun bedtime reading.

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by Firaxis

Not sure what your point is?

You say Europe's sales are double the US, but then the US is BMW's largest market?

The US is a collection of states y'know which is around two and a half times the size of Europe, whilst the population of the US is estimated around 565 million and Europe is 742 Million.

So not as different as you may think.. Irrelvant of that, it doesn't make them any less popular in the UK, it doesn't change the fact that they are priced with mainstream rivals and it really makes no difference.

Interesting tidbit though, the UK bought nearly as many Ford Fiesta's as the whole of the US bought BMW's in 2015.. Not surprising based on price / what they are, but it shows which way the market went over here. A couple of years back it was the BMW 3 series as a front runner.

My point is that BMW ranks their sales by country, not by continent. By their own accounting, they list China as their largest market (as of two years ago), and the U.S. second. I just pulled out the European total number because you guys brought it up.

And if we're going to randomly add up countries to create a "market," why not just include all of North America (or the Western Hemisphere)...per the Monroe Doctrine. ;-)