[JMK007]

I spoke to someone at Dinan earlier this week. Unlike prior conversations over the last year, the guy said they recently made significant progress and expect to have a reflash tune, that involves some hardware, out around May if not earlier. The price is estimated to be around $1,900.

[Sherhart]

Wow. I respect Dinan, but unless that reflash is good for 100 WHP, $1,900 is crazy when you can pick up a like-new JB4 for under $300.

Interested to see what they deliver, but I doubt it will be worth what they're asking.

Jimbo

[casualDIYer]

Wonder if it will be like the BMW kit power kit for the e90. New ECU, larger fan, etc.

[Dippydo]

Originally Posted by menncars

Wonder if it will be like the BMW kit power kit for the e90. New ECU, larger fan, etc.

Time will tell. Problem is they told me this last year that it would be ready by the end of 2013, so I am not holding my breath yet. Definitely will wait on a tune until May but that will be about as long as I am waiting. Hopefully some of the others like Cobb will also have their tunes out.

[Amused]

Originally Posted by Dippydo

Time will tell. Problem is they told me this last year that it would be ready by the end of 2013, so I am not holding my breath yet. Definitely will wait on a tune until May but that will be about as long as I am waiting. Hopefully some of the others like Cobb will also have their tunes out.

Don't hold your breath for Cobb. They just released their tune for the N55 last spring and that engine has been around for a while.

[vader1]

Originally Posted by Amused

Don't hold your breath for Cobb. They just released their tune for the N55 last spring and that engine has been around for a while.

I know many people have a great experience with Cobb, but I would never go that route again.

I spent $600 on an access port which had a hard time communicating with my car to flash the tune on a Subaru. If something screws up during the flash, it can fry a Subie ECU but I got lucky. I wanted to take the tune off the car so I could sell the Accessport when I traded in the car. The Accessport, which had been used a total of 1 time and then put in a drawer was toast. The electronics were cheap. They told me, "it is out of warranty, but we can sell you another one for $600." I sold the car with the tune on (which was nothing that great in the first place, about 15-20 hp stage 1) and was out any residual value for what I could have sold it for. I could have also fried the ECU which at the time was $500, or sat with a dead car and shipped the ECU to Cobb to be "unlocked" for a few hundred dollars and two weeks of downtime.

If I had a warranty problem, I would not have been able to pull the tune and either would have had to make the choice of spending ANOTHER $600 to get the tune off the car, or have the manufacturer void the warranty.

I won't buy from a company that won't work with a customer. If they would have looked at my account and seen all the maps I downloaded, which was one, they would have seen the unit lasted exactly one flash. Cobb is a real crapshoot because if the box they sell you craps out you are screwed. Dinan warranties the tune, and at least BMS you can pull from the car if it craps out and the dealer won't know, but the Cobb tune is still in the ecu if the electronics fail and they "marry" it to the car so you can't just borrow another access port flasher from a buddy to fix it.

Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me. No more Cobb for me ever.

[JMK007]

Originally Posted by Amused

Don't hold your breath for Cobb. They just released their tune for the N55 last spring and that engine has been around for a while.

Cobb told me earlier this week it is way down on their priority list. I interpret that as nothing over the next year at least.

[JMK007]

Originally Posted by Sherhart

Wow. I respect Dinan, but unless that reflash is good for 100 WHP, $1,900 is crazy when you can pick up a like-new JB4 for under $300.

Interested to see what they deliver, but I doubt it will be worth what they're asking.

Jimbo

I the indication given was about 20% increase in hp and about 25% in torque.

[momo3605]

Originally Posted by JMK007

I the indication given was about 20% increase in hp and about 25% in torque.

Sounds the same is JB4. About 300hp and 350lbft torque. But $1900 does sound a bit much. The e9x 335i Dinan tune was $1500

[Sherhart]

Originally Posted by vader1

I know many people have a great experience with Cobb, but I would never go that route again.

I spent $600 on an access port which had a hard time communicating with my car to flash the tune on a Subaru. If something screws up during the flash, it can fry a Subie ECU but I got lucky. I wanted to take the tune off the car so I could sell the Accessport when I traded in the car. The Accessport, which had been used a total of 1 time and then put in a drawer was toast. The electronics were cheap. They told me, "it is out of warranty, but we can sell you another one for $600." I sold the car with the tune on (which was nothing that great in the first place, about 15-20 hp stage 1) and was out any residual value for what I could have sold it for. I could have also fried the ECU which at the time was $500, or sat with a dead car and shipped the ECU to Cobb to be "unlocked" for a few hundred dollars and two weeks of downtime.

If I had a warranty problem, I would not have been able to pull the tune and either would have had to make the choice of spending ANOTHER $600 to get the tune off the car, or have the manufacturer void the warranty.

I won't buy from a company that won't work with a customer. If they would have looked at my account and seen all the maps I downloaded, which was one, they would have seen the unit lasted exactly one flash. Cobb is a real crapshoot because if the box they sell you craps out you are screwed. Dinan warranties the tune, and at least BMS you can pull from the car if it craps out and the dealer won't know, but the Cobb tune is still in the ecu if the electronics fail and they "marry" it to the car so you can't just borrow another access port flasher from a buddy to fix it.

Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me. No more Cobb for me ever.

Interesting. I had the exact opposite experience with Cobb Accessport on my Subaru, but then I had a custom stage 4 tune with multiple maps. From a hardware perspective, I had the AP sitting in my glovebox for literally 6-7 years and ever time I pulled it out to switch a map it worked like a charm.

Jimbo

[metrathon]

$1,900 (plus tax most prolly) is roughly 5% of the car value

[Sherhart]

Originally Posted by metrathon

$1,900 (plus tax most prolly) is roughly 5% of the car value

....and over 6X the cost of the like-new JB4 I purchased that provides what will likely be similar gains.

[mike@x-ph.com]

1900$ !!!!
Go with a JB4 and get an exhaust with the price difference

[metrathon]

Originally Posted by Sherhart

....and over 6X the cost of the like-new JB4 I purchased that provides what will likely be similar gains.

Well, to be honest, it comes with warranty. But still, I wouldn't pay that kind of money.

[Shuttlegoose]

The new developer at Cobb knows his stuff. Don't rush him!!!!! He did god like work for stock ecu tuning on the Evo.
The 328i market is unavoidable, I see about 30 328i sport line for every 1 335i. It's a huge market place and I'm sure they will get to it eventually.

[Safety2213]

From what I understand, the hurdle with the F30 series is the encryption on the ECU. I am not sure how tuners are getting around this and being able to do so without IP infringement. I think driving the $1,900 price from Dinan may be a licensing fee going to BMW. If BMW does not want to cannibalize N55 sales with a more powerful N20/26 engine, granting Dinan a license allows BMW to capitalize on the tuner market while not directly competing against itself. It would be interesting if Dinan will offer both N20/26 & N55 tunes.

[Sherhart]

Originally Posted by BobbyP

From what I understand, the hurdle with the F30 series is the encryption on the ECU. I am not sure how tuners are getting around this and being able to do so without IP infringement. I think driving the $1,900 price from Dinan may be a licensing fee going to BMW. If BMW does not want to cannibalize N55 sales with a more powerful N20/26 engine, granting Dinan a license allows BMW to capitalize on the tuner market while not directly competing against itself. It would be interesting if Dinan will offer both N20/26 & N55 tunes.

Reverse engineering any ECU is likely against the user agreement and therefore infringes IP whether the data is encrypted or not, so that's not really the issue. The issue is getting past the encryption. I agree that some of the $1,900 could be a hefty licensing fee to BMW in exchange for the encryption key(s).

Jimbo

[reedo302]

Steve Dinan recently did an appearance on The Smoking Tire podcast and had an excellent explanation about why his stuff costs so much. I'd highly recommend that you check it out. It's free, so find it on iTunes and give it a listen. If you truly question why Dinan costs what they do, that interview is probably the most comprehensive and frank explanation you're ever going to get. If after listening to it, you still question Dinan's pricing, just accept that you're not going to get Dinan and move on with your life.

The long and short of it is that you are paying for R&D, component quality and warranty. With relation to software, they have in-house computer programmers who have to break through the software encryption and safeguards to make programming that works with all BMW systems. The amount of time it takes is extensive to say the least. The software and ECUs are produced by Siemens, not BMW. Siemens is known for extremely complex and difficult encryption.
With relation to mechanical components, Dinan does their own R&D.
The big thing is the warranty. They work with BMW, and their warranty matches BMW's. There are Dinan service centers all over the US, and the benefit is that they make sure you get taken care of. With other companies, if the components cause problems with the car, BMW can refuse to service under warranty if they deem it voided. Now you have to get the component company to cover the repair, and there's no guarantee of this happening. A company may step up, but it's just as likely that you'll have a blame-game between BMW and the component manufacturer. You may not get your repairs covered initially. This may be a very rare occurrence, but it's a possibility. In contrast, if you go to a BMW dealership that is a Dinan service center, they will fix your car up front. All blaming will occur behind closed doors and won't affect your vehicle getting fixed, and won't cost you money. I mean, you can argue warranty semantics and guarantees all day, but in the end the Dinan warranty is the only one guaranteed to get your car fixed if something takes a crap. This is heavily due to Dinan's relationship with BMW.

The advantage of Dinan is that their stuff is designed for performance that retains driveability. They don't create components that give you gains for the sake of gains. The key is to produce power that is safe for the car, and power that can actually be transferred to the road.

If all you are concerned about is horsepower or torque numbers, Dinan stuff likely isn't for you. You are going to make certain concessions to get Dinan, but the integration of their software is second-to-none and no one else is doing what they are doing. There is going to be full integration into vehicle management systems and ECUs. It isn't just a matter of increasing boost, engine timing and fuel-air mixture. It's a full car software.

I can understand people questioning the cost, but if that cost is going to cause you to not ever want it, what were you expecting? The E90 N55 software was $1699. If you have a problem spending that much, again Dinan likely isn't for you. Dinan obviously isn't for everyone. It's just like anything else. The issue is that when people make comments like this:

unless that reflash is good for 100 WHP, $1,900 is crazy when you can pick up a like-new JB4 for under $300.

Interested to see what they deliver, but I doubt it will be worth what they're asking.

it's apparent that people are not fully understanding of what they are actually getting, and that it's not simply about engine output numbers. Much of it involves understanding the difference between software and a piggyback. They aren't the same thing, and they don't do the same thing with relation to engine management and vehicle controls.


I want Dinan because I daily drive my car 50+ miles per day 4-5 days per week, at a minimum. I need a reliable car that is still comfortable to drive for my commute. To me it's worth the money, but then and again, I've been using Dinan on all of my past BMWs and I am a loyalist. I have never once had an issue with any Dinan product.


Here's a Dinan video about why software is better and safer than a piggyback:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSGGEaUZfOc

[stevehecht]

^Thank you for this summary! I agree with everything you say but unfortunately Dinan doesn't do diesels like Debbie does Dallas so I need to go the piggyback route. And while I have a lot of respect for Terry at BMS, I'm going with a German tuner (Kelleners Sport) because I feel it's a more sophisticated product (and 5x the cost).

[vader1]

To paraphrase Reedo, you get what you pay for.

I am considering the BMS route, but really, I paid near $50k for the car and I want to trust the engine to a $400 piggyback?

I would still like to have a BMW M power kit as the in between choice, but that seems like it is not in the cards. Why they release one for the four series and not the three on this engine just seems dumb.

[Dippydo]

Originally Posted by reedo302

Steve Dinan recently did an appearance on The Smoking Tire podcast and had an excellent explanation about why his stuff costs so much. I'd highly recommend that you check it out. It's free, so find it on iTunes and give it a listen. If you truly question why Dinan costs what they do, that interview is probably the most comprehensive and frank explanation you're ever going to get. If after listening to it, you still question Dinan's pricing, just accept that you're not going to get Dinan and move on with your life.

The long and short of it is that you are paying for R&D, component quality and warranty. With relation to software, they have in-house computer programmers who have to break through the software encryption and safeguards to make programming that works with all BMW systems. The amount of time it takes is extensive to say the least. The software and ECUs are produced by Siemens, not BMW. Siemens is known for extremely complex and difficult encryption.
With relation to mechanical components, Dinan does their own R&D.
The big thing is the warranty. They work with BMW, and their warranty matches BMW's. There are Dinan service centers all over the US, and the benefit is that they make sure you get taken care of. With other companies, if the components cause problems with the car, BMW can refuse to service under warranty if they deem it voided. Now you have to get the component company to cover the repair, and there's no guarantee of this happening. A company may step up, but it's just as likely that you'll have a blame-game between BMW and the component manufacturer. You may not get your repairs covered initially. This may be a very rare occurrence, but it's a possibility. In contrast, if you go to a BMW dealership that is a Dinan service center, they will fix your car up front. All blaming will occur behind closed doors and won't affect your vehicle getting fixed, and won't cost you money. I mean, you can argue warranty semantics and guarantees all day, but in the end the Dinan warranty is the only one guaranteed to get your car fixed if something takes a crap. This is heavily due to Dinan's relationship with BMW.

The advantage of Dinan is that their stuff is designed for performance that retains driveability. They don't create components that give you gains for the sake of gains. The key is to produce power that is safe for the car, and power that can actually be transferred to the road.

If all you are concerned about is horsepower or torque numbers, Dinan stuff likely isn't for you. You are going to make certain concessions to get Dinan, but the integration of their software is second-to-none and no one else is doing what they are doing. There is going to be full integration into vehicle management systems and ECUs. It isn't just a matter of increasing boost, engine timing and fuel-air mixture. It's a full car software.

I can understand people questioning the cost, but if that cost is going to cause you to not ever want it, what were you expecting? The E90 N55 software was $1699. If you have a problem spending that much, again Dinan likely isn't for you. Dinan obviously isn't for everyone. It's just like anything else. The issue is that when people make comments like this:

it's apparent that people are not fully understanding of what they are actually getting, and that it's not simply about engine output numbers. Much of it involves understanding the difference between software and a piggyback. They aren't the same thing, and they don't do the same thing with relation to engine management and vehicle controls.


I want Dinan because I daily drive my car 50+ miles per day 4-5 days per week, at a minimum. I need a reliable car that is still comfortable to drive for my commute. To me it's worth the money, but then and again, I've been using Dinan on all of my past BMWs and I am a loyalist. I have never once had an issue with any Dinan product.


Here's a Dinan video about why software is better and safer than a piggyback:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSGGEaUZfOc

I agree. I am mixed on Dinan parts like suspension and exhaust. There is not much new technology there where I feel it is warranted to pay extra for those items, but the tune I definitely would rather not go any other route even if it was paying 1000 more. It's a hell of a lot more money to replace an engine than a shock.

[metrathon]

Better than getting the $2k Dinan for a 328i, why not getting the 335i directly. Seriously. I completely understand the pricing strategy, but it's just ridiculously expensive for most of the members here.