[MacklinUSOB]

Originally Posted by Elvisfan

I don't believe you need a manual transmission to enjoy driving. With the AT you can shift if you want to. There are probably people who lament not having to turn a key to start the car now.

I don't believe that's what he said. Your belief is more blanket than it should be. There's a reason for options, they are a good thing, they keep everyone happy. Stop building gates based on your beliefs, it doesn't make for good conversation.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Do you enjoy driving or is a car an appliance to you?

Of course I enjoy driving! Otherwise I would be stuck behind the wheel of a Prius.

Drove manual transmissions for 25 years. My last 2 cars with 6-speed manuals were R53 first gen MINI Cooper S, for 9 years and combined 175K miles.

It was fun, but I am now enjoying the lighting fast shifting and quick/efficient/smooth 8-speed ZF auto. When I feel the need to shift, I use the steering wheel paddles. Don't miss the clutch pedal at all.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Elvisfan

I don’t believe you need a manual transmission to enjoy driving. With the AT you can shift if you want to. There are probably people who lament not having to turn a key to start the car now.

This debate comes up frequently but my respond is: No DCT or AT is as involving as having the ability to actually decouple the engine and transmission and select the proper gear then reconnect the drivetrain. I get that some think this is ancient technology but for darn sure it’s great fun. And isn’t that what enthusiasts want in a car?

[Kafkaesque328]

this idea that you don't 'enjoy' driving if you aren't in the 4% of cars equipped with a standard trans is ludicrous. Just because you think pushing in a clutch pedal and pulling on a lever every time you need to shift gears makes you the ultimate badass, or Mario Andretti or something, you don't get to tell people what they do and do not enjoy. I learned to drive a standard on a 72 VW bug 4 speed when I was 14 1/2. Drove a manual for 20+ years, much of that time in LA traffic. Big deal. Find something else to care about and lecture people on.

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

The manual transmission is a relic of the 20th century. It should be left there along with carburetors, chokes, drum brakes, hood prop bars, halogen headlights, motorized seatbelts, etc....

They used to use whale blubber as a primary source of fuel for lamps and other things from the 16th to 19th centuries.

Neat story, right? I really miss those days. I looked into that option in my house, vs. central heat and was told this wasn't possible. I explained that I was a heating/fuel enthusiast, but no bueno..

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

This debate comes up frequently but my respond is: No DCT or AT is as involving as having the ability to actually decouple the engine and transmission and select the proper gear then reconnect the drivetrain. I get that some think this is ancient technology but for darn sure it’s great fun. And isn’t that what enthusiasts want in a car?

Your definition of enthusiast may vary from other people's definition of enthusiast.

I love this article, from back in 2012, jalopnik, racecar drivers talking about what kind of trans they have in their daily drivers.

I wonder if F1 drivers or pro drag racers also feel less 'enthusiast like' with their auto equipped cars. If a slushbox or dual clutch is good enough for race car drivers, its good enough for me.

https://jalopnik.com/5952924/mario-a...hat-they-drive

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328

this idea that you don't 'enjoy' driving if you aren't in the 4% of cars equipped with a standard trans is ludicrous. Just because you think pushing in a clutch pedal and pulling on a lever every time you need to shift gears makes you the ultimate badass, or Mario Andretti or something, you don't get to tell people what they do and do not enjoy. I learned to drive a standard on a 72 VW bug 4 speed when I was 14 1/2. Drove a manual for 20+ years, much of that time in LA traffic. Big deal. Find something else to care about and lecture people on.



They used to use whale blubber as a primary source of fuel for lamps and other things from the 16th to 19th centuries.

Neat story, right? I really miss those days. I looked into that option in my house, vs. central heat and was told this wasn't possible. I explained that I was a heating/fuel enthusiast, but no bueno..



Your definition of enthusiast may vary from other people's definition of enthusiast.

I love this article, from back in 2012, jalopnik, racecar drivers talking about what kind of trans they have in their daily drivers.

I wonder if F1 drivers or pro drag racers also feel less 'enthusiast like' with their auto equipped cars. If a slushbox or dual clutch is good enough for race car drivers, its good enough for me.

https://jalopnik.com/5952924/mario-a...hat-they-drive

What race car drivers and day to day enthusiasts want are not the same. And no one is saying, not me at least that you have to have a MT to enjoy driving. The MT gives you more control and options on shifting gears. Nothing more.

[Kafkaesque328]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

What race car drivers and day to day enthusiasts want are not the same. And no one is saying, not me at least that you have to have a MT to enjoy driving. The MT gives you more control and options on shifting gears. Nothing more.

Your question 'isn't this what enthusiasts want in a car' is less of a question and more of a statement. So my argument is no, not necessarily. Driving a car with a manual transmission can be a lot of fun in some circumstances and a tedious, drag in others. At no point do I feel that way about the slushbox in my current car. Does what I want it to do, regardless of terrain or situation.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

This debate comes up frequently but my respond is: No DCT or AT is as involving as having the ability to actually decouple the engine and transmission and select the proper gear then reconnect the drivetrain. I get that some think this is ancient technology but for darn sure it’s great fun. And isn’t that what enthusiasts want in a car?

Do you use email? Or do you enjoy writing out a letter by hand, folding it, putting in in an envelope, licking a stamp, putting it in the mailbox and waiting a few days for a reply?

Some people actually do still enjoy sending letters... like postcards. It's nostalgic. It's therapeutic. But that doesn't mean that people who use email aren't interested in engaging in friendly conversation just because they don't want to do it with snail mail, does it? I'm an enthusiast. I have many cars, and I've owned many cars in the past, most of them manuals. I don't think you know me enough to dictate what I do and do not want in a car.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by jmg

Do you use email? Or do you enjoy writing out a letter by hand, folding it, putting in in an envelope, licking a stamp, putting it in the mailbox and waiting a few days for a reply?

Some people actually do still enjoy sending letters... like postcards. It's nostalgic. It's therapeutic. But that doesn't mean that people who use email aren't interested in engaging in friendly conversation just because they don't want to do it with snail mail, does it? I'm an enthusiast. I have many cars, and I've owned many cars in the past, most of them manuals. I don't think you know me enough to dictate what I do and do not want in a car.

I did not say an enthusiast is required to use a MT. I said they want to have fun driving. I’m also not saying that MT’s are required for driving fun. I also resent those (not you) that reject MT’s because AT’s are newer technology. I’m saying some of us prefer the more direct mechanical connection of a clutch and MT.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328

Your question 'isn't this what enthusiasts want in a car' is less of a question and more of a statement. So my argument is no, not necessarily. Driving a car with a manual transmission can be a lot of fun in some circumstances and a tedious, drag in others. At no point do I feel that way about the slushbox in my current car. Does what I want it to do, regardless of terrain or situation.

And that’s fine. Also, I think if I had to deal with LA freeways on a regular basis I’d like an AT in my car.

[530iDriver]

I believe Michael's views are more in line with those of a purist. I am cool with that and can see where he is coming from.

What I am having a bit more of an issue reconciling is his statement about "Resenting" those who prefer or admire modern automatics. No need to make it personal. We all like what we like but there is an undeniable fact that present day slushboxes like the 8-Speed ZF in our cars are brilliant, efficient, quick and incredibly smooth. No human will ever be able to shift up or down that quickly, efficiently and smoothly. These transmissions are a work of engineering.

Once upon a time manuals were associated with efficiency and fuel economy. Not any longer. Yes they can be entertaining in a twisty road or a canyon road, but more of a nuisance in heavy, stop and go traffic. They no longer have a compelling reason to exist and they appeal to a tiny fragment of the car buying public. The car industry is swiftly moving away from them.

Sir Alec Issigonis, the designing father of the Mini Cooper, used to call the manual transmission, "The barbaric stick". This was around 1961 when he made that statement...

[LMK5]

I didn't own an automatic until I got married at age 34. Kept my 1991 Integra 5 speed MT until we had to get a van in 2000. I like driving manuals because they make you think. You're a part of the process in partnership with the car.

I recently test drove an F30 320i MT and a 2017 GTI MT. They didn't feel like I remember the MTs I had in the past. They just didn't have that reassuring, positive engagement on the upshift that I loved in my past MTs. Also, the engagement was more vague from a standing start in first gear. Clutch delay valve to blame?

A couple of other things I took from the F30 MT test drive: There was quite a bit of vibration coming through the shifter. I don't remember that from my MTs of the past. Also, naturally, at freeway speeds the engine RPM is much higher than with an AT, increasing cabin noise and lowering efficiency. Lastly, in the F30, because of my size 13 land barges I found that when releasing the clutch the outer edge of my left foot would get caught on the right side edge of the dead pedal.

[MacklinUSOB]

Another tiring AT/MT thread has spawned.

[IMG]https://giphy.com/gifs/week-media-person-RL0xU1daTlMoE[/IMG]

Preference doesn't always need to be met by boring metrics and works cited bound by caustic remarks.

Today I found out I was a barbarian, amongst other things, for having a car equipped 1% differently.

[eluded]

Originally Posted by classyfast

What do you guys think about no more manuals? I will absolutely be locating another e36 or e46m car as a weekend toy in the next couple years. For sure.

Sucks but that is apparently life. Bring on the electric and autonomous cars.

[Kafkaesque328]

Originally Posted by MacklinUSOB

Another tiring AT/MT thread has spawned.

[IMG]https://giphy.com/gifs/week-media-person-RL0xU1daTlMoE[/IMG]

Preference doesn't always need to be met by boring metrics and works cited bound by caustic remarks.

Today I found out I was a barbarian, amongst other things, for having a car equipped 1% differently.

again, whale blubber

[MacklinUSOB]

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328

again, whale blubber

I too prefer the cheap plastic shifter over the leather ZHP knob.

[Gabreigns]

I am in a 330 2018 xdrive loaner specd at 55000. It has no adaptive steering or adaptive suspension and it makes a lot of difference in the drive. I don't feel confident at high speeds with the regular suspension and floaty steering. And those brakes make a difference as well.
The led headlights are terrible. It feels spotty as in brighter and darker when against a wall like I am looking at a leopard hide. And not as uniform and bright. They are white though.
On the plus side,
Better idrive, and engine notes.

[chiefneil]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I did not say an enthusiast is required to use a MT. I said they want to have fun driving. I’m also not saying that MT’s are required for driving fun. I also resent those (not you) that reject MT’s because AT’s are newer technology. I’m saying some of us prefer the more direct mechanical connection of a clutch and MT.

It was before my time, but I understand there was a lot of the same sentiment when synchros were introduced. “OMG double-clutching makes the driving experience more involving, manufacturers are dumbing things down!” Now MT drivers, presumably purists, poo-poo on double-clutching, “There’s no need in modern transmissions. Why would you bother?”

We’re currently seeing something similar with throttle blipping automation right now, too.

Anyway, I do find MTs to be fun although I haven’t had an MT car for a good 20 years. I’d love to get another one but unfortunately my wife doesn’t know how to drive them and we share our cars. And yeah, back when I had an MT I used to double-clutch and blip just because it was fun and gave me something to do.

If I got a modern MT but gave up double-clutching and (manually) blipping that does actually seem like losing half the fun. Just shifting alone doesn’t feel like it takes much skill, but double-clutching while heel and toeing to hit a perfectly rev-matched downshift is da bomb.

[DarkStarBimmer]

you all done dogging my ride now?

unless you have crank windows, you're not the purist they're looking for

[Mr Podman]

On new BMW's the headlights turn when you turn the steering wheel. That's gotta be worth $6,000 right there right?

Also, the cruise control is best in class. (facepalm)

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Mr Podman

On new BMW's the headlights turn when you turn the steering wheel. That's gotta be worth $6,000 right there right?

Also, the cruise control is best in class. (facepalm)

Actually, I find that the adaptive cruise on BMWs functions very very well compared to the others I have tried.

[DarkStarBimmer]

I was only joking, don't stop on my behalf. Your opinions do not sway mine.

[jeffc83]

Originally Posted by classyfast

Lmfao!!! Yeah exactly my man! I'm betting the smell was "engineered" into whatever the hell they manufacture the interior adhesives and materials out of.

Sadly, I can't say that about the Caddies as that AC stunk after year one then the leather/new car scent after 2 or so haha