01-28-2013, 01:11 PM | #111 | |
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I test drove the 2012 S4 twice, the first time I was impressed, the second time the novelty had worn off and it was an ok test drive. To his credit though, granted the 335i is rated 300hp and the S4 has come ahead in most if not all comparisons I have seen, there is still a lot of division out there over which is better. The article above even has the 4 testers debating which one there would own, 3 of the 4 had the 335i on their short list. In this comparison, it came out just a little over 1s ahead on their track. Now if you were to toss in the AWD 335i I think we can all agree that the 335 x drive will at a minimum reduce that difference and at most beat the S4. It is very debatable which is better, driver preferences will determine the better car for the owner. Out of interest, my m sport has x drive and the 19" staggered summer performance tires. I could be wrong but I suspect this one could kill the S4, only a timed test will prove this, until then... |
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01-28-2013, 01:51 PM | #112 | |
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I just don't know why you think your M-sport 335i x-drive would kill and S4? The weight of both are very similar, the S4 engine is under-rated at 335 hp, and every single performance test, acceleration, track, etc... has the S4 kicking the F30's ass. Your staggered wheels must make you a better driver then all the professionals and motor journalists who have tested both cars.
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01-28-2013, 02:01 PM | #113 | |
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If BMW put it's best foot forward by attacking the S4, it would be an RWD M-Sport and not an X-Drive. All I see it doing is add weight when fitted with X-Drive, yet I cannot imagine any performance intention-ed Audi without Quattro. It's not just the marketing to me either.
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01-28-2013, 02:05 PM | #114 | |
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That test linked is not the F30 FWIW.
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01-28-2013, 02:20 PM | #115 |
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@Nal and Drob
The reason I say the x drive will be faster around the track is because BMW says X Drive is faster than RWD, by at least 0.3s to 60. I will give you another example, Infiniti makes both RWD and AWD. The AWD does function more like BMW than Audi or Acura. Its been proven that the AWD G37 is faster than the RWD around most tracks. I cant imagine BMW would not be able to accomplish the same with the AWD 3er. Agreed weight is an issue, but if the two are almost 0.3s apart to 60, I think traction has a much greater added advantage than the losses due to weight. Is there no track times out there for the 3er for both the AWD and RWD, if not then thats just sad. |
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01-28-2013, 02:35 PM | #116 | |
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01-28-2013, 02:45 PM | #117 | |
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Physics has to work the same way for both BMW and Infiniti. |
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01-28-2013, 02:50 PM | #118 | |
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Let's just keep it to the BMW.
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01-28-2013, 03:01 PM | #119 | |
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The GTR is on its own platform, if the G37 shared anything with the GTR that is performance related, I would not have a 335i right now. The G37 AWD kicks in from stop to 25mph at which point everything is transferred to the rear tires. AWD will then kick in only when its required, upon loss of traction I guess. Unlike the S4 and Acura TL SH-AWD, no single tire receives more tq than the other 3, this is the same for the 3 series. The magazine did compare 2 autos, If I can only find it. |
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01-28-2013, 03:27 PM | #120 | |
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Look at all the facts and you should come to the same conclusion. BMW did with the X6M otherwise they would have put in the xi AWD system. Also check out these links. http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/a...35_xi_e90.html Track S4 335 xi Autozeitung test track 1:41.80 1:43.10 Last edited by ToyotaBMW; 01-28-2013 at 03:36 PM.. |
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01-28-2013, 03:30 PM | #121 | |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATTESA I did not say the GTR and g share platforms, but I forget if its awd is called Altessa or something, though I may be thinking Toyota lol. the G may have something in common with the system of the GTR.
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01-28-2013, 03:34 PM | #122 | |
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01-28-2013, 03:34 PM | #123 | |
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BMW has a tendency of inrtoducing new tech in pricier models and then rolling it down to cheaper models. One could argue this is what they are doing with the X6M, not necessarily that they find the 3ers setup to be deficient. Nothing is as black and white just yet |
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01-28-2013, 03:37 PM | #124 | |
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GTR ATTESA is on its own level, the G's is inferior to that one
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The 2009 Nissan GT-R uses an updated version of the ATTESA E-TS, which is designed to work with the car's rear transaxle layout. The system is unique in the way that it utilizes two driveshafts under the vehicle's centerline, with a second driveshaft running slightly to the right of the main driveshaft which transfers power to the front wheels. The Ferrari FF also implements a four wheel drive system with a front engine, rear transaxle. Unlike the previous ATTESA systems which relied heavily on mechanical feedback, the system in the GT-R uses electronic sensors and hydraulically-actuated clutches. It also has a yaw-rate feedback control system, effectively managing slip angle. Front-to-rear torque split can go from 2:98 during a standing start to a maximum of 50:50[1] |
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01-28-2013, 03:37 PM | #125 | |
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01-28-2013, 03:42 PM | #126 | |
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Also the biggest game changer is the addition of the sport diff. This allows the S4 AWD to put power to the outside wheels in a turn to allow the car to feel more RWD and also turns the car better without applying inside brakes. This can't be said about the 335i or the 335xi, this makes a huge difference in a turn. Last edited by ToyotaBMW; 01-28-2013 at 03:59 PM.. |
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01-28-2013, 03:43 PM | #127 | |
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01-28-2013, 03:54 PM | #128 | |
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I like your argument that BMW is not using X drive in the X6M because its deficient, I had not thought of that at all and its true. Dont worry about me, my emotions are not in this at all. I am just curious which is faster. There was the post of the times earlier which had the E90 behind by just over 2 seconds which is great. However the F30 has DHP and is faster than the E90. Did the E90 M Sport X Drive come with staggered summer performance tires? Thats the best case we can use in this search for the truth Given the 2s diffence, and the fact that we have nothing else going on for us here, can we at least all agree that the F30 will shave some of the 2s difference off. I completely agree if you want nothing to do with this form of bench racing but there is literally nothing else to work with here Edit I just checked for the 335i coupe x drive, that did not come with the staggered tire set up. Last edited by 300hp; 01-28-2013 at 04:21 PM.. |
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01-28-2013, 03:57 PM | #129 | |
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You are right that it does share with the old GTR, if only it was the new one |
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01-28-2013, 06:15 PM | #130 | |
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It's my experience that a RWD vehicle with grippy tires and less than ~200-250 ft/lbs of torque will not be able to spin the wheels in a straight line above approx 30 MPH. Above this speed, accelerating the vehicle requires overcoming aerodynamic drag, not in putting power to the ground. The xdrive system will clutch the front axle into the drivetrain until approximately 80 MPH. The addition of the xdrive hardware in this case serves 2 purposes - adding an extra 150lbs to the FRONT of the chassis, and additional drivetrain loss due to friction and inertia of moving parts. So really the only advantage gained is in 0-30 MPH acceleration, which should () only occur once. You understand when trap speed is slower the implication is the 335ix has *lower velocity* when completing the 1/4 mile than the 335i does - but the 335ix will have the better 1/4 mile time. The reason why the S4 is able to compete with a car like the 335i, given it's "heftier" portions, is (a) The engine is slightly more powerful and more responsive due to supercharging; (b) The ZF rear diff allows a driver to brake earlier upon turn entry, and torque steer the car out of the apex with maximum exit velocity; (c) The rear diff also functions as a LSD of sorts, so power is always put to the ground when cornering. OTOH, the 328i/335i has problems putting power down when cornering - the rear open differential (E-diff) will cause the inside tire to spin due to the rotational difference in tire speed. This is overcome by braking the inside tires, which has the same torque vectoring consequence - albeit manufactured in the worst possible way. This is a significant problem for sports cars - the M3 along with every other high performance sports car comes with a Limited Slip Differential which allows power to be applied equally when wheels are rotating at differing speed. My guess is the xdrive will feel like the worst of both worlds on the track, any power going to the front wheels while cornering (the "proactive" xdrive will clutch FWD when you mash the gas) will cause the vehicle to understeer - further compounded by the additional nose weight. None of the fancy differentials seen in performance AWD cars will be there (GTR/EVO/STI/997 have torsen front and rear diffs), so you'll spin the inside wheel(s) when attempting to accelerate through a turn - which is how you want to approach an apex in a RWD car - ie use oversteer to realign the nose for exit. The recent C&D lightening lap called the RS5 (which has same drivetrain as the S4) the "slowest feeling" fast car they drove...ie you don't realize how fast you're going because it doesn't provide the "thrill" of oversteer that you usually associate with high performance sports cars. It'll be interesting to see what BMW decides to do with the new M5, which I read is rumored to come in an AWD variant. But make no mistake, xdrive is there to sell cars in cold weather climates.
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01-28-2013, 06:32 PM | #131 | ||
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Agreed bench racing sucks and you gave good points above but remember people were slamming the x drive for being bad for performance but it turns out per the only evidence we have the same x drive was only 2s behind the s4. The 335i has lapped behind the S4 between 1 and 3 secs on most tracks. Per this single test we can at least agree the 335i x drive is not giving much up. Continuing with bench racing. Which sucks btw I offered the theory that the f30 x drive will best the E90 in our only track test due to staggered performance tires, DHP and per BMW it is faster than the E90 335i.
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