[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Well who knows I was just paraphrasing the post above ours in the thread, maybe they have hidden the software better! (but it appears the car performed as expected)

I think VAG have been utterly stupid in this action and how far up the chain does the decision go?

It probably goes pretty much all the way.

It's very rare to be able to do this level of shit without some very senior cover.

[karma mechanic]

From the fact sheet:

Emissions were measured over 97 trips, totaling more than 140 hours of operation and 6,400 kilometers driven.

Performance differences among the vehicles tested indicate that the technologies for real-world clean diesels already exist. Some of the tested vehicles, such as the BMW X5, had average emissions below Euro 6 emission limits, suggesting that the technologies to achieve that level of performance are available.

So probably not a problem for BMW.

[JustChris]

Wait, just remembered! I was in Florida this year, exposed to those dangerous VAG emissions.

How do I join a class action lawsuit?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Well it appears that the X5 tested passed both in the real world and lab test and wasn't using software to defeat the official test cycle so perhaps not.

We shall see, but I think you'll find some proactive denials from BMW and Mercedes soon if they are in the clear.

I haven't read through all the paper trail on this issue, but do have doubts about the EU6 compliance over this side of the pond with NOx trap exhaust after treatment. We do have reports of 7 times the amount of NOx in real world driving. I'll have to reread the reports and see what after treatment system gives the worst results. The NEDC test is showing compliance, but not in the real world using PEMS.

The X5 results could depend on the after treatment system, SCR has been part of BMW's strategy particularly in the US market. We are not using the SCR system over here on most of BMW's EU6 compliant diesels. I wonder if this is where there is a bigger issue. The shadow definitely falls on EU6 vs. real world NOx levels.

HighlandPete

[pdk42]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I haven't read through all the paper trail on this issue, but do have doubts about the EU6 compliance over this side of the pond with NOx trap exhaust after treatment. We do have reports of 7 times the amount of NOx in real world driving. I'll have to reread the reports and see what after treatment system gives the worst results. The NEDC test is showing compliance, but not in the real world using PEMS.

The X5 results could depend on the after treatment system, SCR has been part of BMW's strategy particularly in the US market. We are not using the SCR system over here on most of BMW's EU6 compliant diesels. I wonder if this is where there is a bigger issue. The shadow definitely falls on EU6 vs. real world NOx levels.

HighlandPete

NOX is shaping up to be the next big battleground. Well, that and particulates. The writing is on the wall for diesel in the medium term I think.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Chris The Manx

Wait, just remembered! I was in Florida this year, exposed to those dangerous VAG emissions.

How do I join a class action lawsuit?

I think the basis of the lawsuit is that the buyers paid for quality that they did not receive, so in effect were duped, rather than the actual emissions consequences.

And I say this not to be pedantic, but to point out that one could argue the same thing has happened here in the UK/Europe.

[Tengocity]

This whole thing goes back to 2009 cars, which means it's before Winterkorn's time as CEO. So it will be interesting to understand how high this issue was understood. Hard to believe that Piech himself (as an engineer himself through and through) didn't know that this was happening.

Or else it is actually a lower level issue with the engineers, perhaps put under a lot of pressure from senior management to achieve the targets, and just found a 'smart' way to do it... Going to be a fascinating story one way or another.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

This whole thing goes back to 2009 cars, which means it's before Winterkorn's time as CEO. So it will be interesting to understand how high this issue was understood. Hard to believe that Piech himself (as an engineer himself through and through) didn't know that this was happening.

Or else it is actually a lower level issue with the engineers, perhaps put under a lot of pressure from senior management to achieve the targets, and just found a 'smart' way to do it... Going to be a fascinating story one way or another.

Yes but it is a cross platform issue.

So unless it's a common bit of kit (hardware/firmware/software), then it must have been known to VW and Audi management.

What about Skoda and Seat?

[HighlandPete]

Just been digging through some of my files and found a study/report by one of the key companies in exhaust after treatment, Corning Environmental Technologies. Study is looking at how NOx is lowered to comply with EU6 and the US Bin 5.

It tracks the NOx after treatment developments and makes very interesting reading about low loads and low engine rpm. It looks at early and late injection strategies and how the NOx formation regime is avoided with high levels of EGR that keep the flame cooler.

But continues...

Managing these strategies becomes very difficult as the amount of charge increases. Therefore, they are limited today to the lower left-hand quadrant of the engine’s load-speed characteristic, up to perhaps 30 to 50% load and perhaps 50% speed. Traditional diesel combustion strategies will still be used at higher load, hence the term ‘mixed mode’. Low-load advanced combustion operation might be sufficient, as most of the points of the certification test cycle fall within this region. This minimises the amount of NOx after treatment that might be required to meet the regulation...

Do you see where this is going? As an engineer, I do.

HighlandPete

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Just been digging through some of my files and found a study/report by one of the key companies in exhaust after treatment, Corning Environmental Technologies. Study is looking at how NOx is lowered to comply with EU6 and the US Bin 5.

It tracks the NOx after treatment developments and makes very interesting reading about low loads and low engine rpm. It looks at early and late injection strategies and how the NOx formation regime is avoided with high levels of EGR that keep the flame cooler.

But continues...

Do you see where this is going? As an engineer, I do.

HighlandPete

Not sure to be honest Pete...?

That the engines management systems are designed to work ideally for the tests and not elsewhere in the operating parameters?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Not sure to be honest Pete...?

That the engines management systems are designed to work ideally for the tests and not elsewhere in the operating parameters?

The potential is there to do so, using a different strategy for loads within the parameters which coincide with the test, without strictly breaking the rules.

Say the ECU is reading light loads and interpreting to use one 'mode' or strategy, then as load increases it applies a different exhaust treatment 'mode' or strategy. You just can't use too high a ratio of EGR as load increases.

Reading more of the same report it is clear higher loads do require more complex after treatments to control emissions.

There has to be an explanation to how a vehicle can comply with EU6 under test conditions, but in real world driving emits NOx at much greater values.

HighlandPete

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Yes but it is a cross platform issue.

So unless it's a common bit of kit (hardware/firmware/software), then it must have been known to VW and Audi management.

What about Skoda and Seat?

Not sure they're sold in the US?

[Archer-s]

What I don't get is why don't they just make it a feature, ie a different map connected to an eco button, use that mode for the testing and leave consumers to choose which mode they want to use.

Or is there more to it?

[jusdorange]

Originally Posted by mssond

What I don't get is why don't they just make it a feature, ie a different map connected to an eco button, use that mode for the testing and leave consumers to choose which mode they want to use.

Or is there more to it?

From my understanding it would only pass if that was the regular mode

& then you had extra-Eco mode

[pdk42]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

The potential is there to do so, using a different strategy for loads within the parameters which coincide with the test, without strictly breaking the rules.

Say the ECU is reading light loads and interpreting to use one 'mode' or strategy, then as load increases it applies a different exhaust treatment 'mode' or strategy. You just can't use too high a ratio of EGR as load increases.

Reading more of the same report it is clear higher loads do require more complex after treatments to control emissions.

There has to be an explanation to how a vehicle can comply with EU6 under test conditions, but in real world driving emits NOx at much greater values.

HighlandPete

So you're saying that the "cheating" is really more about laziness than out-and-out deception? More of a "it's good enough for the test, that'll do" rather than "how can we cheat the system"?

[Tengocity]

Or is it just like revising for a test when you pretty much know what the questions will be?

[Daftasabrush]

The reason this probably went on so long is the U.S. emissions tests don't actually check emissions! They plug a computer into the OBD port and trust what the car is saying. This is one of the reasons OBD2 was mandated in 1997.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by pdk42

So you're saying that the "cheating" is really more about laziness than out-and-out deception? More of a "it's good enough for the test, that'll do" rather than "how can we cheat the system"?

I see the potential for either, both a lazy approach or deliberate cheating, as the actual test is not representative of real world driving. (Criticism of the NEDC test already exists and is well documented). What I'm not sure about (need to read more) is the exact parameters for the tests, both EU6 and the US Bin 5, and how the criteria relates to driving outside of test conditions. That could be the grey area.

The quote from the report I included, shows there is potential to meet emission levels quite easily under low load conditions, (compared to the whole engine scope). Not hard to imagine the content in the "think bubble" in engineer's heads, as they are designing to a test result.

What is clear, any switching (deliberate or innovative) to meet the tests is viewed as a "defeat device" as it does appear to be a way around the full scope of emission ratings, otherwise we'd not be seeing VW where it now is.

Was listening to a motor industry analyst this morning and he can't see (besides those involved inside VW) how others like BMW, Merc, etc., are not aware of this practice. He used the example of all makers tearing down each others cars, examining everything including software.

I sense the plot thickens, I'm sure the European investigation will show flaws and loopholes in the way the tests are conducted (probably the system itself) and how far they are from reality.

What has stood out to me, even with the earlier reports of cars failing EU6 emissions tests in the real world, it didn't appear to be taken seriously here in Europe. It seems it has taken the US EPA and others investigating this issue, to look for why and how.

HighlandPete

[Nick the Greek]

One thing is for sure with VW stock down 20%, the fines will be billions $$$$$

[HighlandPete]

Just being announced that up to 11 million VW diesels could be under investigation, broadens the fiasco outside of the US.

HighlandPete

[Nick the Greek]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Just being announced that up to 11 million VW diesels could be under investigation, broadens the fiasco outside of the US.

HighlandPete

VW shares down 40%........

[Nick the Greek]

Originally Posted by Nick the Greek

VW shares down 40%........

$30 billion of value destroyed. ......