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      06-18-2018, 04:18 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWWIII View Post
I tend to think the comparison goes more like:

Audi S = BMW M Sport
Audi RS = BMW M
Yep, meant 'M Sport' but I'm at work and colleagues just don't understand the importance of me surfing the net on the clock, lol. So I gotta get my replies here in FAST.
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      06-18-2018, 05:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by LiquidMercury View Post
Not a fair comparison. If you're going to compare Audi's S models, then do it with BMW's M models.
It's a bit unfair to compare and S4 to an M3/4... there's a 100hp advantage to the M3/4.

S models compete with the 340i and 440i. The RS models compete with the M models.

M Sport is just aesthetic body kits and add ons. M Performance has actual performance gains a la the MPPSK.
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      06-18-2018, 05:42 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidMercury View Post
Not a fair comparison. If you're going to compare Audi's S models, then do it with BMW's M models.
It's a bit unfair to compare and S4 to an M3/4... there's a 100hp advantage to the M3/4.

S models compete with the 340i and 440i. The RS models compete with the M models.

M Sport is just aesthetic body kits and add ons. M Performance has actual performance gains a la the MPPSK.
That seems accurate. I think the idea of the upcoming g20 m340/440i is to better compete with the Audi S and MB C43 or whatever their compact (iow, midsize) sport sedan is. It's like the S3 competes more with the m240i and the rs3 is more in line with Audi's answer to the M2.
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      06-18-2018, 05:47 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidMercury View Post
Not a fair comparison. If you're going to compare Audi's S models, then do it with BMW's M models.
It's a bit unfair to compare and S4 to an M3/4... there's a 100hp advantage to the M3/4.

S models compete with the 340i and 440i. The RS models compete with the M models.

M Sport is just aesthetic body kits and add ons. M Performance has actual performance gains a la the MPPSK.
That seems accurate. I think the idea of the upcoming g20 m340/440i is to better compete with the Audi S and MB C43 or whatever their compact (iow, midsize) sport sedan is. It's like the S3 competes more with the m240i and the rs3 is more in line with Audi's answer to the M2.
The M in M340i is just marketing. It's the new 340i. The current 340i is just as competitive with the current S4 as the M340i will be. It will probably be even more dominant over the S4 because it's will have the appropriate performance gains gained with every new model, but not because of the "M"badge. That's just what happens when manufacturers compete with each other.
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      06-18-2018, 06:00 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidMercury View Post
Not a fair comparison. If you're going to compare Audi's S models, then do it with BMW's M models.
It's a bit unfair to compare and S4 to an M3/4... there's a 100hp advantage to the M3/4.

S models compete with the 340i and 440i. The RS models compete with the M models.

M Sport is just aesthetic body kits and add ons. M Performance has actual performance gains a la the MPPSK.
That seems accurate. I think the idea of the upcoming g20 m340/440i is to better compete with the Audi S and MB C43 or whatever their compact (iow, midsize) sport sedan is. It's like the S3 competes more with the m240i and the rs3 is more in line with Audi's answer to the M2.
The M in M340i is just marketing. It's the new 340i. The current 340i is just as competitive with the current S4 as the M340i will be. It will probably be even more dominant over the S4 because it's will have the appropriate performance gains gained with every new model, but not because of the "M"badge. That's just what happens when manufacturers compete with each other.
I understand that the "M" in the m-performance models isn't the same as a true m-car, but my understanding is that an M340i will come with the sport oriented options like msport suspension, performance tuned motor, etc. in that regard it'll be more like the s4, which I view as being a more performance focused model than the current 340i or the 335i in the pre-lci. Those could be optioned to be more luxury oriented, or simply base, which wasn't particularly performance oriented (at least not in the f30).
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      06-18-2018, 06:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
I understand that the "M" in the m-performance models isn't the same as a true m-car,
I think you misunderstood my intent. I'm not comparing the M badges at all nor am I accusing you of doing so.

Keep this in mind: The M340i is the G30 equivalent of a F30 340i M Sport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
but my understanding is that an M340i will come with the sport oriented options like msport suspension, performance tuned motor, etc.
The marketing has worked on you. The current 340i M Sport already comes with the M Sport suspension. The current 340i already has a "performance tuned motor" in the B58 which is more powerful than the 330i. There is a MPPSK, but that's a different story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
in that regard it'll be more like the s4, which I view as being a more performance focused model than the current 340i or the 335i in the pre-lci. Those could be optioned to be more luxury oriented, or simply base, which wasn't particularly performance oriented (at least not in the f30).
This is where you are incorrect. I'm a former S4 owner and the S4 isn't as sporty as you think. It's a heavy understeering luxury sedan. A base 340i already competes with an S4. Again, the marketing is playing it's game with you. S=sport so Audi has convinced you it's more sporty than the 340i, which doesn't have an M badge on it. This is why BMW is changing the name of the 340i to the M340i and discontinuing the non-M Sport 340i. They are counter-programming consumers who think just like you do, through no fault of your own.


In summary:

The upcoming M340i is the equivalent of a current 340i M Sport only they have discontinued the 340i base. Power gains are coming as a result of a new model, but not as a result of the"M" badge.


A G30 non-M 340i will not be available.

The G30 M340i will likely be available optioned with the MPPSK kit just like the current F30 340i.

In essence, the M340i is purely marketing and name designation. If they had made a G30 340i with an M Sport appearance package it will look and perform exactly like the M340i. Does that make sense?

The top of the line G30 would be just as competitive with the S4 had they named it a 340i or a M340i.

The current M550i reflects this change in name designation. Notice there is no such thing as a 550i anymore.
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      06-18-2018, 06:18 PM   #29
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x-drive will never match quattro in performance. especially if the S4 had the LSD, it's hard to beat. our cars aren't designed with the same driver focus that the S4 is, even though it's pretty much a direct competitor.

Instead of jumping straight to a tune, I'd do some lowering suspension and tires and see how the car feels. I bet that'll get a lot of the handling you're looking for. Sport mode pretty much solves the laggy throttle feeling.
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      06-18-2018, 06:47 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I think you misunderstood my intent. I'm not comparing the M badges at all nor am I accusing you of doing so.

Keep this in mind: The M340i is the G30 equivalent of a F30 340i M Sport.



The marketing has worked on you. The current 340i M Sport already comes with the M Sport suspension. The current 340i already has a "performance tuned motor" in the B58 which is more powerful than the 330i. There is a MPPSK, but that's a different story.



This is where you are incorrect. I'm a former S4 owner and the S4 isn't as sporty as you think. It's a heavy understeering luxury sedan. A base 340i already competes with an S4. Again, the marketing is playing it's game with you. S=sport so Audi has convinced you it's more sporty than the 340i, which doesn't have an M badge on it. This is why BMW is changing the name of the 340i to the M340i and discontinuing the non-M Sport 340i. They are counter-programming consumers who think just like you do, through no fault of your own.


In summary:

The upcoming M340i is the equivalent of a current 340i M Sport only they have discontinued the 340i base. Power gains are coming as a result of a new model, but not as a result of the"M" badge.


A G30 non-M 340i will not be available.

The G30 M340i will likely be available optioned with the MPPSK kit just like the current F30 340i.

In essence, the M340i is purely marketing and name designation. If they had made a G30 340i with an M Sport appearance package it will look and perform exactly like the M340i. Does that make sense?

The top of the line G30 would be just as competitive with the S4 had they named it a 340i or a M340i.

The current M550i reflects this change in name designation. Notice there is no such thing as a 550i anymore.
As I understand the new G20 M340i, it has the same engine/trans package as my new 3X M40i. No slouch of an engine IMO stock out of the factory.
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      06-18-2018, 06:49 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
I understand that the "M" in the m-performance models isn't the same as a true m-car,
I think you misunderstood my intent. I'm not comparing the M badges at all nor am I accusing you of doing so.

Keep this in mind: The M340i is the G30 equivalent of a F30 340i M Sport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
but my understanding is that an M340i will come with the sport oriented options like msport suspension, performance tuned motor, etc.
The marketing has worked on you. The current 340i M Sport already comes with the M Sport suspension. The current 340i already has a "performance tuned motor" in the B58 which is more powerful than the 330i. There is a MPPSK, but that's a different story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
in that regard it'll be more like the s4, which I view as being a more performance focused model than the current 340i or the 335i in the pre-lci. Those could be optioned to be more luxury oriented, or simply base, which wasn't particularly performance oriented (at least not in the f30).
This is where you are incorrect. I'm a former S4 owner and the S4 isn't as sporty as you think. It's a heavy understeering luxury sedan. A base 340i already competes with an S4. Again, the marketing is playing it's game with you. S=sport so Audi has convinced you it's more sporty than the 340i, which doesn't have an M badge on it. This is why BMW is changing the name of the 340i to the M340i and discontinuing the non-M Sport 340i. They are counter-programming consumers who think just like you do, through no fault of your own.


In summary:

The upcoming M340i is the equivalent of a current 340i M Sport only they have discontinued the 340i base. Power gains are coming as a result of a new model, but not as a result of the"M" badge.


A G30 non-M 340i will not be available.

The G30 M340i will likely be available optioned with the MPPSK kit just like the current F30 340i.

In essence, the M340i is purely marketing and name designation. If they had made a G30 340i with an M Sport appearance package it will look and perform exactly like the M340i. Does that make sense?

The top of the line G30 would be just as competitive with the S4 had they named it a 340i or a M340i.

The current M550i reflects this change in name designation. Notice there is no such thing as a 550i anymore.
Let me explain myself differently. As of right now, when you order an f30 340i, you can option it without any msport, or sport parts at all. Driving a 340i, and especially a pre-lci 335i with base suspension, brakes, and no mppk was/is not a very "sporty" experience. It feels more like driving a typical commuter sedan with a little extra hop and skip. The f30 335/340 was not necessarily a sport, or sporty focused car. If you wanted that you had to make sure to choose the right packages and options, or commit to adding aftermarket modifications.

My impression of the s4 is that it is more performance focused. You might not think so because of how it handles, but many others do. It comes standard with performance oriented options that the 335/340 didn't. A base s4 is more performance oriented than a base 335i, at least in the way that Audi interprets performance. We all understand that it's a different approach from bmw.

With the g20 generation this won't be so. The m340i will come standard with: M-Sport brakes, M diff, variable sport steering, 704 msport suspension (xDrive or not) with adaptive suspension optional, M steering wheel, M exterior, rear spoiler, 19" wheels. These are not all cosmetic trim pieces. Many are performance oriented. In other words, if you decide you want a 3er with the B58 engine, you'll have to get the m340i with its performance focus. In that way, it does parallel the s4 because it's optioned with more performance in mind, not luxury, tech etc. sure you can still spec it to be loaded with tech and luxury, but the base car will have performance parts that needed to be optioned separately or in packages with the f30.

If the "m" in m340i is causing misunderstandings in this discussion please just pretend it's not there. I've never before witnessed a single letter cause so much confusion and passionate discussions as the letter M in regard to how it's used by bmw. Who cares. All I'm saying in a nutshell is that the new g20 340i will come standard with what are considered more performance oriented parts that had to be specified on an f30 build. In my mind this is more similar to the s4, which comes standard with what Audi considers more performance parts than an a4, or a current f30 330 or 340i. I realize that the f30 can be optioned that way, but it's not standard. One who didn't do their research could accidentally buy a less sporty 340i if not optioned correctly.
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      06-18-2018, 06:55 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I think you misunderstood my intent. I'm not comparing the M badges at all nor am I accusing you of doing so.

Keep this in mind: The M340i is the G30 equivalent of a F30 340i M Sport.



The marketing has worked on you. The current 340i M Sport already comes with the M Sport suspension. The current 340i already has a "performance tuned motor" in the B58 which is more powerful than the 330i. There is a MPPSK, but that's a different story.



This is where you are incorrect. I'm a former S4 owner and the S4 isn't as sporty as you think. It's a heavy understeering luxury sedan. A base 340i already competes with an S4. Again, the marketing is playing it's game with you. S=sport so Audi has convinced you it's more sporty than the 340i, which doesn't have an M badge on it. This is why BMW is changing the name of the 340i to the M340i and discontinuing the non-M Sport 340i. They are counter-programming consumers who think just like you do, through no fault of your own.


In summary:

The upcoming M340i is the equivalent of a current 340i M Sport only they have discontinued the 340i base. Power gains are coming as a result of a new model, but not as a result of the"M" badge.


A G30 non-M 340i will not be available.

The G30 M340i will likely be available optioned with the MPPSK kit just like the current F30 340i.

In essence, the M340i is purely marketing and name designation. If they had made a G30 340i with an M Sport appearance package it will look and perform exactly like the M340i. Does that make sense?

The top of the line G30 would be just as competitive with the S4 had they named it a 340i or a M340i.

The current M550i reflects this change in name designation. Notice there is no such thing as a 550i anymore.
The S4 is tucked alil ahead of the 340i (on paper only).. it cant compete with the true M's
Even the 340i stock (w/B58) can run with the S4.. with a tune.. forget it

As far as the G 340.. yes this is correct.. the G 340 will have essentially mandatory performance options baked in (mppsk, steering, etc).. current 340 owners have no need to be envious
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      06-18-2018, 07:05 PM   #33
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Similar things happen to everyone unfortunately, and people handle them differently.

E.g. one of coworkers just deals with similar scenario by buying both.

This is no such option for me though, and my resolution is to just enjoy the ride.
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      06-18-2018, 07:06 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD1953 View Post
As I understand the new G20 M340i, it has the same engine/trans package as my new 3X M40i. No slouch of an engine IMO stock out of the factory.
I'm not refuting that. Every generation sees performance gains. The M340i would have had the same gains had it been called the 340i M Sport or the M340i.
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      06-18-2018, 07:16 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Let me explain myself differently. As of right now, when you order an f30 340i, you can option it without any msport, or sport parts at all. Driving a 340i, and especially a pre-lci 335i with base suspension, brakes, and no mppk was/is not a very "sporty" experience. It feels more like driving a typical commuter sedan with a little extra hop and skip. The f30 335/340 was not necessarily a sport, or sporty focused car. If you wanted that you had to make sure to choose the right packages and options, or commit to adding aftermarket modifications.

My impression of the s4 is that it is more performance focused. You might not think so because of how it handles, but many others do. It comes standard with performance oriented options that the 335/340 didn't. A base s4 is more performance oriented than a base 335i, at least in the way that Audi interprets performance. We all understand that it's a different approach from bmw.

With the g20 generation this won't be so. The m340i will come standard with: M-Sport brakes, M diff, variable sport steering, 704 msport suspension (xDrive or not) with adaptive suspension optional, M steering wheel, M exterior, rear spoiler, 19" wheels. These are not all cosmetic trim pieces. Many are performance oriented. In other words, if you decide you want a 3er with the B58 engine, you'll have to get the m340i with its performance focus. In that way, it does parallel the s4 because it's optioned with more performance in mind, not luxury, tech etc. sure you can still spec it to be loaded with tech and luxury, but the base car will have performance parts that needed to be optioned separately or in packages with the f30.

If the "m" in m340i is causing misunderstandings in this discussion please just pretend it's not there. I've never before witnessed a single letter cause so much confusion and passionate discussions as the letter M in regard to how it's used by bmw. Who cares. All I'm saying in a nutshell is that the new g20 340i will come standard with what are considered more performance oriented parts that had to be specified on an f30 build. In my mind this is more similar to the s4, which comes standard with what Audi considers more performance parts than an a4, or a current f30 330 or 340i. I realize that the f30 can be optioned that way, but it's not standard. One who didn't do their research could accidentally buy a less sporty 340i if not optioned correctly.

We are on the same page then in understanding that the non-M Sport 340i will no longer exist. The M340i is basically the 340i M Sport with a different name. No, it will NOT come with the MPPSK, but it will be more powerful than the outgoing 340i simply because it is expected to with the introduction of a new model.

I think where we disagree is that the S4 is more performance oriented than the current 340i. To me, at least, how it handles is more important than straight line speed. The current S4 doesn't even come with a manual!
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      06-18-2018, 07:46 PM   #36
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I know you're talking about 2015's, but I have a 2016 340i and wifey just got a 2018 S4 and I can tell you that IMO, the S4 feels smoother, maybe is the nice pirelli tires. Other than that, I feel they're both smooth in terms of power. IMO you can't really go wrong with either. We passed on the C43 AMG. Didn't wanted to wait for the 2019 C43.
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      06-18-2018, 07:54 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Let me explain myself differently. As of right now, when you order an f30 340i, you can option it without any msport, or sport parts at all. Driving a 340i, and especially a pre-lci 335i with base suspension, brakes, and no mppk was/is not a very "sporty" experience. It feels more like driving a typical commuter sedan with a little extra hop and skip. The f30 335/340 was not necessarily a sport, or sporty focused car. If you wanted that you had to make sure to choose the right packages and options, or commit to adding aftermarket modifications.

My impression of the s4 is that it is more performance focused. You might not think so because of how it handles, but many others do. It comes standard with performance oriented options that the 335/340 didn't. A base s4 is more performance oriented than a base 335i, at least in the way that Audi interprets performance. We all understand that it's a different approach from bmw.

With the g20 generation this won't be so. The m340i will come standard with: M-Sport brakes, M diff, variable sport steering, 704 msport suspension (xDrive or not) with adaptive suspension optional, M steering wheel, M exterior, rear spoiler, 19" wheels. These are not all cosmetic trim pieces. Many are performance oriented. In other words, if you decide you want a 3er with the B58 engine, you'll have to get the m340i with its performance focus. In that way, it does parallel the s4 because it's optioned with more performance in mind, not luxury, tech etc. sure you can still spec it to be loaded with tech and luxury, but the base car will have performance parts that needed to be optioned separately or in packages with the f30.

If the "m" in m340i is causing misunderstandings in this discussion please just pretend it's not there. I've never before witnessed a single letter cause so much confusion and passionate discussions as the letter M in regard to how it's used by bmw. Who cares. All I'm saying in a nutshell is that the new g20 340i will come standard with what are considered more performance oriented parts that had to be specified on an f30 build. In my mind this is more similar to the s4, which comes standard with what Audi considers more performance parts than an a4, or a current f30 330 or 340i. I realize that the f30 can be optioned that way, but it's not standard. One who didn't do their research could accidentally buy a less sporty 340i if not optioned correctly.

We are on the same page then in understanding that the non-M Sport 340i will no longer exist. The M340i is basically the 340i M Sport with a different name. No, it will NOT come with the MPPSK, but it will be more powerful than the outgoing 340i simply because it is expected to with the introduction of a new model.

I think where we disagree is that the S4 is more performance oriented than the current 340i. To me, at least, how it handles is more important than straight line speed. The current S4 doesn't even come with a manual!
I'd always thought that the S4 came standard with something similar to the "msport package", but apparently it doesn't, so I stand corrected. Apparently the sport package is $2k plus, and that gets you the rear diff, better brakes, 19" wheels, performance tires etc. I think the s4 might come standard with sport tuned suspension with an optional adaptive "sport" suspension. I'm not 100% on that though.

So yes, the g20 340i will come standard with a sportier build than the S4 as its currently offered.

All this to say I was generally agreeing with your post anyway. The current s4/5 competes with the 340i/440i, not the m3/4. Whether the s4 is sportier to drive or not is up to individual preference.
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      06-18-2018, 07:55 PM   #38
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I bought a certified 2015 335i xdrive this week after driving a ton of vehicles over the past few months. I almost bought a certified 2015 S4 but the price was just a little too high. The dealer dropped the price on the 335 so I jumped on it, mostly so I could stop looking at cars. But I am having some remorse on skipping the S4. In my opinion, it sounded better, had tighter handling, and was quicker than the 335. The downshifts in dynamic mode kept it revving high and sounding like an indy car and would take off with just a blip of the throttle. The 335 is much tamer sounding and seems to have some delay when I stomp on the gas. I dont know if this is turbo lag or traction control or transmission or something else. Ultimately, I bought the BMW because it was cheaper and looked better. But i think i'm missing the performance of the S4.

Any opinions on 2015 335i xdrive vs 2015 S4?
just throw on a jb4 and call it a day.
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      06-18-2018, 07:57 PM   #39
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Audi quotes S4's additional 24 HP and yet 0-60 times are comparable with many on the street saying S4 cannot even keep up in a straight line so I do not know how it will keep up through the turns. BMW > Audi.
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      06-18-2018, 08:17 PM   #40
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I've had some experience with the 335 and the b8.5 s4. The S4 is the better performance car. DCT gearbox is faster than the ZF8. The car has locking diffs.

both cars can make serious power. plenty of bolt on s4's in the low 11s

in the end its really personal preference. i've been die hard bmw for a long time and i think the f30 m sport looks better. plus I can actually slide the car a bit.
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      06-19-2018, 06:40 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by BMWILUVU View Post
Audi quotes S4's additional 24 HP and yet 0-60 times are comparable with many on the street saying S4 cannot even keep up in a straight line so I do not know how it will keep up through the turns. BMW > Audi.
An S4 will walk a 335/340 x-drive around a track.
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      06-19-2018, 06:58 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
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Originally Posted by BMWILUVU View Post
Audi quotes S4's additional 24 HP and yet 0-60 times are comparable with many on the street saying S4 cannot even keep up in a straight line so I do not know how it will keep up through the turns. BMW > Audi.
An S4 will walk a 335/340 x-drive around a track.
How do you know this though?
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      06-19-2018, 08:27 AM   #43
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How do you know this though?
More tire, More power, Faster transmission, Dual wishbone front suspension, LSD (optional), similar weight

S4's only negative is it's nose heavy, so you'll need to drive it like a fwd car in many situations. But the grip and dynamics are there if you know how to use it.
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      06-19-2018, 12:14 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Logicoeur View Post
I was in the same boat OP. Coming from 2 prior Audis the S4 was #1 on my list. I had a C7 A6 prestige that I traded for this 335i. Both cars are great but the aftermarket support for the bmw is far better imo, read (cheaper), because there are a lot more options.

I will admit the 335i seems very lackluster without a tune but it still has some umph. Xdrive suspension definitely needs to go. It's soft as shit. Every bump makes my soul tremble.

The 335i is indeed cheaper as a lot more are manufactured and shares plenty of parts across the 3series. The S4 doesn't benefit from this as much as Audi likes to separate the models a lot more imo.


Mod it. You will be happy.
Adaptive suspension fixes this, and that's what the OP has.

Reason why 335/340 > S4.. RWD bias!! Even with Xdrive I can make my tail wag
The rwd bias in xdrive is why i got the 335i. I knew the interior wouldn't be as nice or comfortable as the audis, but I was after a different driving experience. Probably go back when I can afford an RS6/7.

I dont have a garage to store the Cayman S I really wanted : so here I am! Lololl
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