[Livfast335]

I brought my car for limp mode with a HFC downpipe. I don't care.....and nobody made a fuss.

The JB Stage 1 won't cause your radio to stop working, or your strut from going bad.
So unless the dealer can prove your "mod" caused the damage, there's no issue.

The only thing a tune could damage, would be engine internals. My personal opinion is, it doesn't matter if its a MPPK, or Dinan, or JB4. They all do the same thing.....up the boost.

If the engine goes bad or gets damaged from 3psi.... then I think the engine was bad to begin with.

However, some people who are running E30, and bunch of other mods at high PSI... well that's another story. More risk IMO....

[rjc32000]

Originally Posted by Igor_1080

What benefit do you have to state this argument other than just boredom and arrogance?

That's an easy one. I am a BMW customer and shareholder. I want BMW cars to be as affordable as possible; I want BMW's shares to be as valuable as possible.

As a customer, I recognize that the costs incurred by BMW in servicing cars are passed along to me when I purchase/lease a BMW. To the extent that warranty service costs are incurred when they shouldn't be due to fraud, it increases the price I pay. In effect, I am forced to subsidize "tuners" who modify their cars and then remove said modifications to claim warranty coverage.

So too as a shareholder. The costs incurred in providing ineligible warranty coverage for a car that some yobbo damaged by modifying it directly affect BMW's profits, which in turn affects share price. In effect, I am once again indirectly subsidizing some "tuner's" decision to modify his/her car and then claim warranty coverage when it breaks.

When people cheat the system, the costs are passed along to all of us. It is really easy to think of BMW as some huge corporation with pools of money and justify deceiving them as a mere drop in the bucket that has no real effect. But the reality is that BMW is a publicly traded company (i.e., owned by shareholders, not by a cabal of rich Germans in suits), and we are all BMW customers. When companies encourage fraud ("removes without a trace--completely undetectable!") and customers attempt to conceal mods so as to later claim warranty service when something goes wrong, the costs of their actions are ultimately passed along to me as a customer and shareholder.

So I post in hopes of raising consciousness and awareness amongst my fellow forum members. If you decide to mod your car, that's your decision and you should bear the consequences, not pass them along to me and the vast majority of BMW customers who think BMWs are damn fine just the way they left the factory.

[EBIINYC]

Originally Posted by rjc32000

That's an easy one. I am a BMW customer and shareholder. I want BMW cars to be as affordable as possible; I want BMW's shares to be as valuable as possible.

As a customer, I recognize that the costs incurred by BMW in servicing cars are passed along to me when I purchase/lease a BMW. To the extent that warranty service costs are incurred when they shouldn't be due to fraud, it increases the price I pay. In effect, I am forced to subsidize "tuners" who modify their cars and then remove said modifications to claim warranty coverage.

So too as a shareholder. The costs incurred in providing ineligible warranty coverage for a car that some yobbo damaged by modifying it directly affect BMW's profits, which in turn affects share price. In effect, I am once again indirectly subsidizing some "tuner's" decision to modify his/her car and then claim warranty coverage when it breaks.

When people cheat the system, the costs are passed along to all of us. It is really easy to think of BMW as some huge corporation with pools of money and justify deceiving them as a mere drop in the bucket that has no real effect. But the reality is that BMW is a publicly traded company (i.e., owned by shareholders, not by a cabal of rich Germans in suits), and we are all BMW customers. When companies encourage fraud ("removes without a trace--completely undetectable!") and customers attempt to conceal mods so as to later claim warranty service when something goes wrong, the costs of their actions are ultimately passed along to me as a customer and shareholder.

So I post in hopes of raising consciousness and awareness amongst my fellow forum members. If you decide to mod your car, that's your decision and you should bear the consequences, not pass them along to me and the vast majority of BMW customers who think BMWs are damn fine just the way they left the factory.

I think thats surely one of those points of view thats very one sided. Firstly, no-one mods with the intentions of having their car be damaged or inoperable. Second, there are certain measures which are deemed more or less safe enough that you can do the mod and not expect something to go wrong to that degree. This is akin to breaking the speed limit, sure we all do it, and we certainly know the threshold that would be deemed either extremely illegal or just passively inadvisable.

A Jb tune is similar to going about 60MPH in a 50MPH zone, the likelihood that something would go wrong is so miniscule that we ALL do it.

Conversely what you're referring to is some sort of general concensus that we are looking to defraud bmw or cost them more money. The costs of a company covering an included maintenance plan is not something that would be exceeding or affecting their bottom line to the point where it would be passed on to the customer in a measurable amount. Even if every 1/100 bmw's were incurring an increased amount of maintenance or repair cost tomorrow, we would even still not be anticipating a measurable increase in our costs of purchasing or owning or leasing our cars. They account for, and have a maximum amount of, covered repair costs. These kinds of calculations are done far before they decide to roll out a no cost maintenance program, thats just smart business and accounting. There is little to no chance that anything we do, is not absolutely accounted for and they did the math before deciding to offer such a maintenance and warranty plans. They are a business and it is about their profit, which they make a Sh*t ton of. They are one of the most costly auto manufacturers in the market. They own rolls royce and RR certainly makes a "good" profit off of their sales.

When you're considering finance and the cost of our community to a brand that caters worldwide, for the better part of a century, there are far more cost affecting factors that are more directly tied to our pockets than modding. Like the cost of fuel, metals and other things that are out of our control and affect us to a much much higher degree.

So ultimately your argument here is just, in my opinion, excessive; despite its intentions. So please, save it for another time, you're not going to convince many people here, and I respectfully disagree.

[Livfast335]

Originally Posted by rjc32000

That's an easy one. I am a BMW customer and shareholder. I want BMW cars to be as affordable as possible; I want BMW's shares to be as valuable as possible.

As a customer, I recognize that the costs incurred by BMW in servicing cars are passed along to me when I purchase/lease a BMW. To the extent that warranty service costs are incurred when they shouldn't be due to fraud, it increases the price I pay. In effect, I am forced to subsidize "tuners" who modify their cars and then remove said modifications to claim warranty coverage.

So too as a shareholder. The costs incurred in providing ineligible warranty coverage for a car that some yobbo damaged by modifying it directly affect BMW's profits, which in turn affects share price. In effect, I am once again indirectly subsidizing some "tuner's" decision to modify his/her car and then claim warranty coverage when it breaks.

When people cheat the system, the costs are passed along to all of us. It is really easy to think of BMW as some huge corporation with pools of money and justify deceiving them as a mere drop in the bucket that has no real effect. But the reality is that BMW is a publicly traded company (i.e., owned by shareholders, not by a cabal of rich Germans in suits), and we are all BMW customers. When companies encourage fraud ("removes without a trace--completely undetectable!") and customers attempt to conceal mods so as to later claim warranty service when something goes wrong, the costs of their actions are ultimately passed along to me as a customer and shareholder.

So I post in hopes of raising consciousness and awareness amongst my fellow forum members. If you decide to mod your car, that's your decision and you should bear the consequences, not pass them along to me and the vast majority of BMW customers who think BMWs are damn fine just the way they left the factory.

This discussion has nothing to do with someone damaging his car due to a an aftermarket tune. This is simply a regular oil change....which is embedded into the price of the car. Nobody is defrauding anyone.

[DanHazelrigg]

So...should he remove the JB1 before the oil change? Just Kidding...THIS IS a HILARIOUS thread

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

http://www.impalasuperstore.com/naisso/magmoss.htm

Mike, I don't think you should be attacked for being a business man who sells modification parts and service to people who chose to modify their automobiles. If there is a warranty question about those mods, then that is the car owners concern and not yours. It is their choice to modify their cars.
You are not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want.
As well, giving advice to a customer or forum member who asked for advice shouldn't mean you get berated and accused of committing a crime, and I hope that poster rethinks what they wrote.

The following is offered in general. It's for information only and not intended to belittle or criticize anyone or what they do.
I post it so that people can think about it and read the Magnusson Moss act closely as it is important to understand what it states and what it's really about.
If anyone has corrections or different understanding on the issue please post and let's discuss it.
No hating please.

Regarding the law and modifications and warranty, what you state is not true from my reading and understanding of Magnusson-Moss.
All auto makers have written expressed warranties that clearly state what the warranty is and what can and will void it.
Modifying any mechanical system outside of how the car/vehicle is sold can and will void the warranty if the manufacture knows of the modification.
Regardless if the modification caused a problem or not, the modification is what is expressly stated in the warranty.

This is not about using different types of air filters or brake pads or other non brand specific items related to maintenance. The warranty void is about modifications to the vehicle as it is designed, manufactured, and sold.
Putting a tune on the engine can and will void the warranty if the dealer knows about it and chooses to tell the manufacturer. Even if the engine mod hasn't caused a single problem the mere existence of the mod can affect the warranty because, again, it is a modification to the vehicle beyond how it was built and sold.
That's what an "express warranty" does, it tells the consumer what is covered and what will void the warranty.

Many people will cite the Magnusson-Moss warranty act and incorrectly exclaim that that law means an owner can modify their car as they please and the manufacturer must, and has to, prove that the modification caused the specific problem. That is not true at all.
A major portion of, and big reason for, the Mag-moss act is as a consumer protection law that forbids manufacturers or dealers demanding specific "tie in" purchases of products or service in order to maintain warranty.
For example, a manufacturer or dealer can not demand that a customer purchase engine oil sold only by the manufacturer, or a specific brand of oil in order to maintain warranty. The law prohibits that type of 'tie in' purchase.

If a manufacturer requires a specific type/brand of oil, or brake pad, or whatever item in order to maintain warranty, then the manufacturer must provide that specific product and/or service at no additional cost to the consumer. If they provide those items, then they can deny or void warranty if the consumer uses a different brand of product or service.

What's interesting there is that BMW does actually provide specific maintenance items and service to the consumers car at no additional cost.
So BMW can specifically demand that a certain brand of motor oil be used in order to maintain warranty.

I think a lot of people misinterpret the law about warranties and then spread that information around. I too used to think that the law protected me modifying my cars and that the manufacturer had to prove things. Many years ago I looked into and read about what the Mag-moss act really is and does and realized that there is a LOT of misinformation out there.
I'm not a lawyer, but from what I read and understand the law on warranty and modification is not what people believe it to be. Having a majority believe something does not make it true.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Mike, I don't think you should be attacked for being a business man who sells modification parts and service to people who chose to modify their automobiles. If there is a warranty question about those mods, then that is the car owners concern and not yours. It is their choice to modify their cars.
You are not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want.
As well, giving advice to a customer or forum member who asked for advice shouldn't mean you get berated and accused of committing a crime, and I hope that poster rethinks what they wrote.

The following is offered in general. It's for information only and not intended to belittle or criticize anyone or what they do.
I post it so that people can think about it and read the Magnusson Moss act closely as it is important to understand what it states and what it's really about.
If anyone has corrections or different understanding on the issue please post and let's discuss it.
No hating please.

Regarding the law and modifications and warranty, what you state is not true from my reading and understanding of Magnusson-Moss.
All auto makers have written expressed warranties that clearly state what the warranty is and what can and will void it.
Modifying any mechanical system outside of how the car/vehicle is sold can and will void the warranty if the manufacture knows of the modification.
Regardless if the modification caused a problem or not, the modification is what is expressly stated in the warranty.

This is not about using different types of air filters or brake pads or other non brand specific items related to maintenance. The warranty void is about modifications to the vehicle as it is designed, manufactured, and sold.
Putting a tune on the engine can and will void the warranty if the dealer knows about it and chooses to tell the manufacturer. Even if the engine mod hasn't caused a single problem the mere existence of the mod can affect the warranty because, again, it is a modification to the vehicle beyond how it was built and sold.
That's what an "express warranty" does, it tells the consumer what is covered and what will void the warranty.

Many people will cite the Magnusson-Moss warranty act and incorrectly exclaim that that law means an owner can modify their car as they please and the manufacturer must, and has to, prove that the modification caused the specific problem. That is not true at all.
The Mag-moss act is a consumer protection law that forbids manufacturers or dealers demanding specific "tie in" purchases of products or service in order to maintain warranty.
For example, a manufacturer or dealer can not demand that a customer purchase engine oil sold only by the manufacturer, or a specific brand of oil in order to maintain warranty. The law prohibits that type of 'tie in' purchase.

If a manufacturer requires a specific type/brand of oil, or brake pad, or whatever item in order to maintain warranty, then the manufacturer must provide that specific product and/or service at no additional cost to the consumer. If they provide those items, then they can deny or void warranty if the consumer uses a different brand of product or service.

What's interesting there is that BMW does actually provide specific maintenance items and service to the consumers car at no additional cost.
So BMW can specifically demand that a certain brand of motor oil be used in order to maintain warranty.

I think a lot of people misinterpret the law about warranties and then spread that information around. I too used to think that the law protected me modifying my cars and that the manufacturer had to prove things. Many years ago I looked into and read about what the Mag-moss act really is and does and realized that there is a LOT of misinformation out there.
I'm not a lawyer, but from what I read and understand the law on warranty and modification is not what people believe it to be. Having a majority believe something does not make it true.

Thank you for your reply.
I as well am not a lawyer and im expressing what i think is true, none of my posts should be taken as a legal advice of course.
My advice is based on my experience and what techs and various BMW dealerships tell me (as a friend).
I am not advising anyone to go to the dealership with a modified car and ask them to honor their warranty. Im just advising OP to remove the tune (since it takes less than 10 minutes) and the dealership will not know (even if they do they will not care).
By doing so the dealership will not void your warranty, you will not need to sue them and we wont have to know whether that law protects you or not.

I have an FBO with stage 2 fuel pump running E65, i never had a problem with warranty. I always get asked questions about my 1/4 mile and the power output by the service techs.

It is very important to know how this thread started.
OP needs to get his oil changed, he is not going to the dealership asking them to replace his engine.

[Livfast335]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

It is very important to know how this thread started.
OP needs to get his oil changed, he is not going to the dealership asking them to replace his engine.

Exactly. As far as I know, this thread became a farce a long time ago. If this is such a big concern to whomever, go on CNN or go protest in the street.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Thank you for your reply.
I as well am not a lawyer and im expressing what i think is true, none of my posts should be taken as a legal advice of course.
My advice is based on my experience and what techs and various BMW dealerships tell me (as a friend).
I am not advising anyone to go to the dealership with a modified car and ask them to honor their warranty. Im just advising OP to remove the tune (since it takes less than 10 minutes) and the dealership will not know (even if they do they will not care).
By doing so the dealership will not void your warranty, you will not need to sue them and we wont have to know whether that law protects you or not.

I have an FBO with stage 2 fuel pump running E65, i never had a problem with warranty. I always get asked questions about my 1/4 mile and the power output by the service techs.

It is very important to know how this thread started.
OP needs to get his oil changed, he is not going to the dealership asking them to replace his engine.

Absolutely. I hope, and do think, you understand that my post was not about you and the service and products you provide.

I do understand what the OP was looking for, which is advice and opinion.
And of course people want to help out.

I just took the opportunity to post what I did because it came up during the conversation/posts.
It is important to inform oneself, really for one's own protection.
Knowing what can happen or what to expect can be very helpful.
It also goes directly to the OP's question. Knowing what auto warranties are and do in relation to the law, specifically Mag-Moss, helps one to understand what modding may potentially mean to ownership during warranty.

I'm all for modding and I accept what 'could' happen.
I had an APR tune in my A4 and a JB+ piggy back on my 135i.
Both were very good and improved the cars performance.
The simple mode in the 135i w/N54 was quite amazing for something so simple and inexpensive.

Mod on drivers!
Just be informed.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Livfast335

Exactly. As far as I know, this thread became a farce a long time ago. If this is such a big concern to whomever, go on CNN or go protest in the street.

The poster is a forum member and is also allowed to express his view even if it's not popular.
Of course that also means that other members are allowed to respond.
I respect his view on the question at hand, but the direct accusation went too far and wasn't necessary in order to get his point across, imho.

Have we reached this: , or it there still some movement?

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Absolutely. I hope, and do think, you understand that my post was not about you and the service and products you provide.

I do understand what the OP was looking for, which is advice and opinion.
And of course people want to help out.

I just took the opportunity to post what I did because it came up during the conversation/posts.
It is important to inform oneself, really for one's own protection.
Knowing what can happen or what to expect can be very helpful.
It also goes directly to the OP's question. Knowing what auto warranties are and do in relation to the law, specifically Mag-Moss, helps one to understand what modding may potentially mean to ownership during warranty.

I'm all for modding and I accept what 'could' happen.
I had an APR tune in my A4 and a JB+ piggy back on my 135i.
Both were very good and improved the cars performance.
The simple mode in the 135i w/N54 was quite amazing for something so simple and inexpensive.

Mod on drivers!
Just be informed.

Agree with you 100%

Im on this forum everyday for hours and every single day i learn something new which benefits me as an enthusiast and vendor. You do have a point with your approach on the Mag-Moss law, it might or might not protect owners who tune their cars and from now one i will make sure to mention that whenever this kind of discussion comes up.

[G30 B58]

Originally Posted by rjc32000

I am a BMW customer and shareholder. I want BMW cars to be as affordable as possible; I want BMW's shares to be as valuable as possible.

Sell your shares and stop buying BMWs. Start buying cars (and stock of automakers) that people don't mod and hide that fact from their dealers.

Bentley maybe?

[Buckeyes]

Moral or the story, just take the five minutes to remove the stage 1. Why give anyone any reason to give you a hard time or just change your oil yourself.

[rjc32000]

Originally Posted by Trcb777

Moral or the story, just take the five minutes to remove the stage 1.

Um...I think you must mean the immoral of the story. Or perhaps aren't entirely clear what "morals" are.

The moral of the story is if you mod your car, pay for any repairs out of pocket rather than committing fraud by concealing the same from the dealer.

If only this concept had been simply and elegantly stated somewhere before. I dunno, maybe something like "thou shalt not steal?"

[rjc32000]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Is it legal for the dealership to void the warranty because of a tune ( without any sign of damages to any car component) ? NO

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

I as well am not a lawyer and im expressing what i think is true, none of my posts should be taken as a legal advice of course.

Dude, telling people whether something is legal or not is the definition of legal advice. And telling them incorrectly whether something is legal or not is the definition of bad legal advice.

[rjc32000]

I've seen many people invoke Magnuson-Moss and assert that it requires BMW to prove a mod caused damage before denying coverage. While that is a convenient interpretation if you are trying to sell mods to people, it is also flat-out incorrect.

All Magnuson-Moss provides is that in doing routine maintenance, the dealer cannot force you to use their parts. It allows the consumer to use any part they like, provided it has the same specs as the original and doesn't alter how the car operates.

Attorney Steve Lehto did a good write up on this a while back on Oppositelock (full article here). In it, he writes:

The law says: "No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name . . ."

So, they can't dictate what brand of parts you put on your car during the warranty period. Mr. Goodwrench, Motorcraft and Mopar are optional. But simply swapping parts is not the area of greatest concern here. The real concern is vehicle modification.

Many modifications people do to their cars fall outside of the "article or service" contemplated by the statute. Suppose you loved the way Vin Diesel could pull wheelies in 13th gear in his Charger and figured a little of that "NOS" would do the same for your car. Even if your little four-banger won't pull wheelies in any gear, it now puts out a few more horses than before. So, if you find the transmission spitting out teeth like it's been punched in the mouth by Mike Tyson, you can bet the manufacturer might blame the problem on the increased power being fed to the trans.

The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act requires manufacturers to honor their warranties and auto manufacturers only warrant their vehicles against manufacturing defects. Your claim here could be denied because the failure was not due to a defect in a factory component. It was caused by something added to the car: the nitrous oxide injection system which was not part of your car to begin with. That system caused a non-defective part to fail. Your mod did not void the warranty. It's just that the failure was not caused by a factory defect.

Other popular modifications might likewise be problematic. Companies sell aftermarket modifications for Electronic Control Units which range from new programming to high performance replacement units. The net result is that the engine is now being controlled by a program unlike the one your car shipped with. Manufacturers know these mods exist and these will also run afoul of warranty coverage. Many Owner's Manuals specifically state that warranty coverage does not extend to changes to the vehicle's "configuration" and this limitation is not forbidden by the Magnuson Moss section cited above. The manufacturer is not requiring you to use a particular brand of item or service, they just don't want you using one that is altered to different settings than those configured at the factory. Or, put it this way: If your ECU went bad and needed replacement, you could replace it with one of any brand you liked, so long as it controlled the engine the same as the original.

Expect your warranty claim on your drivetrain to be scrutinized if you come in with a hopped up ECU. These claims are routinely denied so long as the failure appears to be related somehow to the new - altered - performance parameters of the ECU. And this is perfectly legal according to the Federal Trade Commission which is the government entity charged with creating rules to implement the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act.

Many modifications people do to their cars fall outside of the "article or service" contemplated by the statute. Suppose you loved the way Vin Diesel could pull wheelies in 13th gear in his Charger and figured a little of that "NOS" would do the same for your car. Even if your little four-banger won't pull wheelies in any gear, it now puts out a few more horses than before. So, if you find the transmission spitting out teeth like it's been punched in the mouth by Mike Tyson, you can bet the manufacturer might blame the problem on the increased power being fed to the trans.

The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act requires manufacturers to honor their warranties and auto manufacturers only warrant their vehicles against manufacturing defects. Your claim here could be denied because the failure was not due to a defect in a factory component. It was caused by something added to the car: the nitrous oxide injection system which was not part of your car to begin with. That system caused a non-defective part to fail. Your mod did not void the warranty. It's just that the failure was not caused by a factory defect.

Other popular modifications might likewise be problematic. Companies sell aftermarket modifications for Electronic Control Units which range from new programming to high performance replacement units. The net result is that the engine is now being controlled by a program unlike the one your car shipped with. Manufacturers know these mods exist and these will also run afoul of warranty coverage. Many Owner's Manuals specifically state that warranty coverage does not extend to changes to the vehicle's "configuration" and this limitation is not forbidden by the Magnuson Moss section cited above. The manufacturer is not requiring you to use a particular brand of item or service, they just don't want you using one that is altered to different settings than those configured at the factory. Or, put it this way: If your ECU went bad and needed replacement, you could replace it with one of any brand you liked, so long as it controlled the engine the same as the original.

Expect your warranty claim on your drivetrain to be scrutinized if you come in with a hopped up ECU. These claims are routinely denied so long as the failure appears to be related somehow to the new - altered - performance parameters of the ECU. And this is perfectly legal according to the Federal Trade Commission which is the government entity charged with creating rules to implement the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act.

I've had people tell me that the seller of the performance parts assured them that the new parts would not affect their warranty coverage. To that, all I can tell you is that they are not the one who has the final say on that; it's the manufacturer. Perhaps you should show them where your Owner's Manual addresses aftermarket racing parts and configuration changes to the vehicle. Ask how their product does not fit in those categories.

Also, there is a lot of confusion about the FTC's "Consumer Alert" on aftermarket parts which is referenced above. To be clear, the FTC explicitly said: "the manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket or recycled part caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage." Once they have done that, they are all set. And the FTC's ruling did not sanction alterations, modifications or racing and high performance parts. The ruling addressed "Auto Warranties & Routine Maintenance." That is why it was called, "Auto Warranties & Routine Maintenance." It was not called "Warranty Coverage Guaranteed for Your Chipped Nitrous-Breathing Ride."

So, you can use any type of part or service you want during the warranty period so long as it does not alter or reconfigure the car from its factory specs. In the cases which do, you might run into problems getting warranty coverage for failures associated with those parts or modifications, especially if the parts are designed for racing or high performance.

But it is pretty obvious that most people here already knew this. That's why the common refrain is "remove your mods before seeking service." All I am asking is that people take responsibility for their own actions rather than attempting to cheat a company they supposedly love.

The overwhelming majority of BMW drivers shouldn't be forced to subsidize tuners who choose to believe that some dudes in a garage know more than a company with thousands of engineers and a R&D budget that is measured in millions, if not billions, of dollars. You want to mod your car? Be my guest. But don't ask me to help pay for your warranty coverage. And don't think for a second that selling mods designed to evade detection makes one anything other than an accomplice to fraud. The entire purpose of "removes without a trace! completely undetectable" is to encourage and enable people who mod their cars beyond factory spec to conceal the same when they seek service, i.e. to obtain a benefit or service via deception.

I understand that no one likes to be called dishonest or unethical, but that's a fair label when one intentionally conceals their warranty-busting mods from the dealership in order to maintain warranty coverage. Obtaining a benefit or service you aren't entitled to by deception has a name: theft.

[83883]

^
I think you guys are all being trolled. No one can possibly be this annoying in real life
99% agree, remove tune before oil change.

[Buckeyes]

subsidizing is how insurance works and I look at a warranty as insurance. I've had zero issues with my car but if I do, thanks for subsidizing my warranty. God knows Ive subsidize plenty for other people's auto insurance , home insurance and healthcare. Thanks again

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by 83883

^
I think you guys are all being trolled. No one can possibly be this annoying in real life
99% agree, remove tune before oil change.

i think you are correct LOL