[F32]

Originally Posted by rconti

I still think it's funny that people get butthurt that their luxury car gets beat up on by a sports car.

Not so much in this example -- because the Mustang is more of a sports coupe. But, I was reading a review of the C7 Stingray versus the E90 M3 where the C7 of course beat up on the M3.

To the forum's credit, 50% of the posts were pro-Vette, even if saying "not the car for me" but 50% were in utter denial, pissing and moaning about how the Vette they've never seen in person, much less driven, must be a POS for losers, and "Wait till the new M3 comes out" and on and on.

Sore loser much?

Goddamn, I'd sure HOPE that a 2-seat focused sports car performs better than a luxury sedan. The point of the M3 is to come somewhere NEAR a proper sports car, with seats for 5, and you expect to pay more because it is more luxurious and holds more people.

Some people just need to let go of the idea that a luxury sedan/coupe is something more than the compromise that it is.

Even the F30 328 with the 8 speed slushbox would take down my M Coupe (actual sports car) in a straight line, to say nothing of how the 335 would kill it. You don't buy a sports car to be a luxury car, and you don't buy a luxury car to be a sports car. They both have their place. Accept it.

Relevant info: my only V6 Mustang experience was a 2011/2012 Mustang Convertible in Hawaii (with the new 300hp v6). I was blown away, that thing gets up and moves -- felt quicker than even the late 90s v8 coupes I have been in. Sure, it was a wet noodle, and the DBW and slushbox programming were terrible, but that's why I own a proper manual transmission BMW sports car and not a rental car!

If I was looking at a mustang, I'd have to buy the V8, just because. It's not that much more money, and it's a car you buy for the power. If I were buying an F30 (and I would buy an F31 if it was available with a stick), I'd buy the 4cyl because it's the right mix of power and efficiency.

That said, the V6 mustang is an awesome car, and a great performance buy.

An F30 is a better car in most ways than the Mustang. And it has the price to reflect it. Don't have a chip on your shoulder about it. If there's a way in which a luxury sedan is not better than a sporty coupe, deal with it. That's the compromise YOU chose.

This.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by rconti

I still think it's funny that people get butthurt that their luxury car gets beat up on by a sports car.

Not so much in this example -- because the Mustang is more of a sports coupe. But, I was reading a review of the C7 Stingray versus the E90 M3 where the C7 of course beat up on the M3.

To the forum's credit, 50% of the posts were pro-Vette, even if saying "not the car for me" but 50% were in utter denial, pissing and moaning about how the Vette they've never seen in person, much less driven, must be a POS for losers, and "Wait till the new M3 comes out" and on and on.

Sore loser much?

Goddamn, I'd sure HOPE that a 2-seat focused sports car performs better than a luxury sedan. The point of the M3 is to come somewhere NEAR a proper sports car, with seats for 5, and you expect to pay more because it is more luxurious and holds more people.

Some people just need to let go of the idea that a luxury sedan/coupe is something more than the compromise that it is.

Even the F30 328 with the 8 speed slushbox would take down my M Coupe (actual sports car) in a straight line, to say nothing of how the 335 would kill it. You don't buy a sports car to be a luxury car, and you don't buy a luxury car to be a sports car. They both have their place. Accept it.

Relevant info: my only V6 Mustang experience was a 2011/2012 Mustang Convertible in Hawaii (with the new 300hp v6). I was blown away, that thing gets up and moves -- felt quicker than even the late 90s v8 coupes I have been in. Sure, it was a wet noodle, and the DBW and slushbox programming were terrible, but that's why I own a proper manual transmission BMW sports car and not a rental car!

If I was looking at a mustang, I'd have to buy the V8, just because. It's not that much more money, and it's a car you buy for the power. If I were buying an F30 (and I would buy an F31 if it was available with a stick), I'd buy the 4cyl because it's the right mix of power and efficiency.

That said, the V6 mustang is an awesome car, and a great performance buy.

An F30 is a better car in most ways than the Mustang. And it has the price to reflect it. Don't have a chip on your shoulder about it. If there's a way in which a luxury sedan is not better than a sporty coupe, deal with it. That's the compromise YOU chose.

The new Vette is a purebred sports car and I would find it highly unlikely the new M3 would beat that car on the track. It already makes more more hp/tq and weighs 3300lbs and has a nifty suspension. Probably one of the best suspensions this side of us$100,000. Even if it's close to the new M3 there is still the monster that's to come from the supercharged version.

Mustang GT and Camaro SS would be the M3/4 competition at half the price.

Your post is one of the best I have seen here so far.

[300hp]

Granted the Mustang V6 is a great coupe, the tests we have seen this far have exaggerated things a bit. Stangs are ordinarily tested with descent summer rubber. F30s are ordinarily tested with run flats. Yes the 328i was beat by said V6 but the time it registered on SOW is about a second behind a CTS-V. Let's not forget the stang packs an additional 60 horses and the CTS-V packs a couple hundred more. The CTS-V is a class act IRO performance, simply amazing. This is not even an opinion it's just a fact, CTS-V hauls ass everywhere, curves, straights you name it.

I think anyone who is open minded enough to understand how physics plays a role in performance (as opposed to say the brand of the car ) should be able to see the amount of time being left on the clock by the use of these run flats in all tests. More so when compared to other cars using proper tires. Think about the track times that could have been achieved with similar tires to the Stangs in tests of yesteryear (figure 8, 1/4 mile, slalom/scratch the slalom test, lol, 0-60, VIR etc.

Before we conclude that Stangs are running all over F30s, let's at least entertain that thought. 3seconds by just swapping tires to descent rubber is HUGE. The Stang ran a 1:30 time on SOW and 3:12.7 at VIR. One wonders what the implications are for swapping tires at VIR for example. We don't know whether it would be 1s, or 0.5s or 0.1s, but what we do know, with 100% certainty, is time will be shaved off.

The 328i here was already handicapped by lower power ratings but it's time is nothing to be embarrassed about. Think CTS-V.

I will be the first one to admit that Ford has done a great job with the Stang especially the GT as it runs with the M3. I will leave the GT to the M3 folks. However with the V6, 2 days ago I thought it was awesome but today I call this one another emperor with no clothes.

[drob23]

Keep in mind that the current mustang was released in 2005MY, which puts it in the e46 timeline. The engines were changed over the years and some LCI things such as EPS, but the chassis is still pretty old.

Wait to see what they do for the new S550 2015 Mustang - will have IRS, and possibly a T/C'd engine. We'll see what it looks like in Detroit this January!

[Cyberdemon]

I find it funny people are dwelling on the Mustang so much.

It's good to see the stock BRZ on some sticky rubber is only a second behind even though its over 100hp down on power. They need to hurry up with the BRZ-STI already.

[300hp]

This guy can be had for less than my F30

http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro-zl1-sports-car.html

Its a different level of performance but I would pick the C7 over this one. I don't think Ford can top GM though

[DVC]

Originally Posted by F32

People need to stop thinking that a BMW 3-Series is a performance car.

The BMW 3-Series IS a performance car.

A performance "sedan", but performance-oriented none the less. The fact that it is routinely compared to more purpose-built sports cars is because it performs well enough to merit comparison. Does it carry a disadvantage due to extra size and weight? Yes. So does the 4300# Porsche Panamera, which - particularly in GTS or Turbo trim - is no slouch on the track, posting times among the 911s, Vipers, Corvettes, R8s, etc.

The problem with the 3-Series is that it wears many hats in an effort to please almost everyone. The stock suspension calibration is more toward the luxury end of it's potential than most enthusiasts would prefer. Let's not confuse stock suspension calibration and RF tires for lack of performance orientation. It doesn't take too much tweaking to bring out the real performance potential of a 3-Series... and once you've done so, you have a car that strikes an exceptional balance in terms of performance and practicality, luxury and fuel economy - with great looks to boot. I can't think of any other cars in a similar price range that do all of the above better.

So let's not be so quick to write-off the performance of the 3-Series just because - in stock trim - it's a few tenths behind more purpose-built cars with neither the practicality of seating 5 nor the luxury of driving comfortably when not in full attack mode.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by DVC

The BMW 3-Series IS a performance car.

A performance "sedan", but performance-oriented none the less. The fact that it is routinely compared to more purpose-built sports cars is because it performs well enough to merit comparison. Does it carry a disadvantage due to extra size and weight? Yes. So does the 4300# Porsche Panamera, which - particularly in GTS or Turbo trim - is no slouch on the track, posting times among the 911s, Vipers, Corvettes, R8s, etc.

The problem with the 3-Series is that it wears many hats in an effort to please almost everyone. The stock suspension calibration is more toward the luxury end of it's potential than most enthusiasts would prefer. Let's not confuse stock suspension calibration and RF tires for lack of performance orientation. It doesn't take too much tweaking to bring out the real performance potential of a 3-Series... and once you've done so, you have a car that strikes an exceptional balance in terms of performance and practicality, luxury and fuel economy - with great looks to boot. I can't think of any other cars in a similar price range that do all of the above better.

So let's not be so quick to write-off the performance of the 3-Series just because - in stock trim - it's a few tenths behind more purpose-built cars with neither the practicality of seating 5 nor the luxury of driving comfortably when not in full attack mode.

This

[Cyberdemon]

Arguing the semantics of what "kind" of car you own is fairly pointless.

A bunch of engineers got together and decided to build something with 4 wheels. Then they drove it around the Nurburgring a whole bunch. So you can say it's not a "sports" car, but to deny it's designed for high performance is silly.

I wonder how many times was the Toyota Avalon thrown around a race track to tune the dampers?

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

Arguing the semantics of what "kind" of car you own is fairly pointless.

A bunch of engineers got together and decided to build something with 4 wheels. Then they drove it around the Nurburgring a whole bunch. So you can say it's not a "sports" car, but to deny it's designed for high performance is silly.

I wonder how many times was the Toyota Avalon thrown around a race track to tune the dampers?

I don't think people are arguing about what they have. It's just a general discussion and not a personal one. We are all big boys here

[tdizzle]

I think we're here on a forum, which is populated by the enthusiast. You know the guys that want the most/best out of the cars we drive.

We bought our cars for luxury sure, but there is no doubt we pride ourselves in the fact that our cars will (or are supposed to) outperform other comparable cars. When our cars outperform cars that cost more or even the same we love to praise them.

What we're starting to see if that our cars performance isn't on the edge of the top tier as we may like. Cars like the lowly mustang can whip us handily while costing quite a bit less. Go take a gander at the cost of a Mustang GT loaded out and you get somewhere around the price of a base model 328 with no options.

That Mustang GT will then run with a M3 around the track and beat it in many tests (for about $25k less).

Hop in a Camaro ZL1 optioned/priced comparably to my 335 and you've got a car that will beat up a M3/M5/M6 anywhere you can test.

Our 335/328s compare favorably to other 'luxury' 'sporty' cars, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking they compare to other more focused cars. But they sure are lookers and I'd much rather be sitting in my 335 than in a Mustang GT every day.

I do think that giving so much up on performance, we'd get a bit more luxury though. I haven't sat in one recently, but I'd suspect the Lexus/Caddy's of the world are more luxurious while giving pretty close to BMW performance.

I love my car, but I have no disillusions that I can go stop light race a $35k Mustang GT or beat it around a track for that matter. Maybe if they decided to upgrade the interior in the future and drop in a DCT, I'll find myself eyeing one in a couple years..

[drob23]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

I love my car, but I have no disillusions that I can go stop light race a $35k Mustang GT or beat it around a track for that matter. Maybe if they decided to upgrade the interior in the future and drop in a DCT, I'll find myself eyeing one in a couple years..

Please stay far far away from Ford DCT's...

[yemenmocha]

Agree with others regarding 3 series as a sedan that also has some serious performance, because it's that combination that is the very reason I've bought mine (and the same for my older M3).

I have the comfort, passenger seating & overall room, etc. of a luxury sedan but then also have performance that is arguably in the same league as quite a few pure sports cars. And in some categories it overlaps with performance figures or beats a few of them (moreso the M3 for this point). I also think it's a big compliment that a sporty sedan is so often compared to sports cars in terms of performance, especially when it is other German imports like the Boxster or base Carrera.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by drob23

Please stay far far away from Ford DCT's...

Do they even have a car with a DCT?

I'd even take the wonderful 8AT in our current cars if push came to shove.

[F32]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

I wonder how many times was the Toyota Avalon thrown around a race track to tune the dampers?

Not many. But I can promise you that on any given Avalon forum, you'll find 16-18 year-olds who got them as a hand-me-down are comparing performance to other cars. And getting butthurt when people tell them their Avalon is not made to perform.

Same thing.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

Do they even have a car with a DCT?

I'd even take the wonderful 8AT in our current cars if push came to shove.

The Focus and Fiesta come with the powershift dry clutch DCT designed by Getrag.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/a...much_improved/

The ZF autoboxes are going into all of the Chrysler products, I think some of the Jeeps even get a 9 spd version.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by F32

Not many. But I can promise you that on any given Avalon forum, you'll find 16-18 year-olds who got them as a hand-me-down are comparing performance to other cars. And getting butthurt when people tell them their Avalon is not made to perform.

Same thing.

I took the liberty of looking up the Avalon forums for these teenagers you are referring to. It seems even the teens are not doing these things you are referring to. Are you one of said teens?

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/15...ion-2005-2012/

[BavarianFanatic]

Originally Posted by 300hp

I took the liberty of looking up the Avalon forums for these teenagers you are referring to. It seems even the teens are not doing these things you are referring to. Are you one of said teens?

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/15...ion-2005-2012/

Uh oh.

[TeutonicFlight]

Originally Posted by 300hp

This is a tale of tires but tires are so boring, yawn!!!

So Randy took out these cars to the streets of willow and they changed tires from stock to most aggressive tire. Here are the results:

Mustang V6 on all seasons 1:33.1
328i on stock 18 summers 1:33.1

Most aggressive tire
Mustang V6 1:30
328i 1:30.7 (there was a typo here before, I have corrected it)
Subaru 1:31.1

I have some thoughts on this as this new information relates to VIR by Car and Driver

I 🔰this very much. Good times too for homogenized production cars !
WSR )

Harold ?

[W12x]

The time is not bad for the BRZ considering the amount of power it's got. (While the power to weight ratio is slightly better than 328i's, it doesn't feel powerful at all when you are driving it, we put one on the dyno before and the FR-S/BRZ only makes about 170RWHP)

Overall all three are great cars, but it would be much better if they were using the exact same tires(doesn't have to be same size, but should be same compound) for the testing.

For the best fun car out of three, it's the BRZ, best DD, it's the 328i, want something cheap powerful and have rear seats that you could use occasionally, pick the Mustang.

[W12x]

Originally Posted by rconti

I still think it's funny that people get butthurt that their luxury car gets beat up on by a sports car.

Not so much in this example -- because the Mustang is more of a sports coupe. But, I was reading a review of the C7 Stingray versus the E90 M3 where the C7 of course beat up on the M3.

To the forum's credit, 50% of the posts were pro-Vette, even if saying "not the car for me" but 50% were in utter denial, pissing and moaning about how the Vette they've never seen in person, much less driven, must be a POS for losers, and "Wait till the new M3 comes out" and on and on.

Sore loser much?

Goddamn, I'd sure HOPE that a 2-seat focused sports car performs better than a luxury sedan. The point of the M3 is to come somewhere NEAR a proper sports car, with seats for 5, and you expect to pay more because it is more luxurious and holds more people.

Some people just need to let go of the idea that a luxury sedan/coupe is something more than the compromise that it is.

Even the F30 328 with the 8 speed slushbox would take down my M Coupe (actual sports car) in a straight line, to say nothing of how the 335 would kill it. You don't buy a sports car to be a luxury car, and you don't buy a luxury car to be a sports car. They both have their place. Accept it.

Relevant info: my only V6 Mustang experience was a 2011/2012 Mustang Convertible in Hawaii (with the new 300hp v6). I was blown away, that thing gets up and moves -- felt quicker than even the late 90s v8 coupes I have been in. Sure, it was a wet noodle, and the DBW and slushbox programming were terrible, but that's why I own a proper manual transmission BMW sports car and not a rental car!

If I was looking at a mustang, I'd have to buy the V8, just because. It's not that much more money, and it's a car you buy for the power. If I were buying an F30 (and I would buy an F31 if it was available with a stick), I'd buy the 4cyl because it's the right mix of power and efficiency.

That said, the V6 mustang is an awesome car, and a great performance buy.

An F30 is a better car in most ways than the Mustang. And it has the price to reflect it. Don't have a chip on your shoulder about it. If there's a way in which a luxury sedan is not better than a sporty coupe, deal with it. That's the compromise YOU chose.

As someone who had the opportunity to drive a C6 Z06 Vette, I have to say it's an amazing vehicle. It's fast, fuel efficient, and more comfortable than a M3. With regular performance tires(the Z06 I drove had PSC tires) the ride will only be better. As for the Mustang, a newer V8 Mustang can probably beat the E90/E92 M3 in a many performance aspects while only costing about half of the M3.

I have talked to a lot of BMW guys about how amazing the Magnetic Ride Control system is on some GM cars (Camaro ZL1, CTS-V, C6/C7 Vette, etc) and the most common response I got was 'it must be a POS when compared to BMW's EDC'. But based on my experience the MRC system is much better any BMW EDC/AD cars I have driven, the difference it made is quite significant.

The new C7 will be more comfortable than the C6 since it's got 3rd generation MRC system, and it's also got better interior than the previous C6 Vettes. It's not meant to be a M3/M4 competitor, and the M3/M4 will not beat a C7 Z51 performance wise. (And I doubt the M3/M4 is going to be more comfortable either)

I used to think BMW is the best of everything, but as I get to drive a lot of different cars, I learned that I was wrong. BMW is not the best of luxury or best of sport, but a nice middle place leaning a little bit more toward performance, which also comes with a sometimes hefty price tag.

As I said in some other threads, if you want bang for the bucks sports car or the fastest car for the money, never look at BMW, because that's not what BMWs are designed to be.

[Diver]

Close match on the track, but I would take the 328i for my ride. It is a strange comparo as each of these cars address a different market.