[SergioK]

Originally Posted by buildbright

Thanks for testing that, I love experiements. I still would like to know why the throttle mapping defaults to comfort.

I would venture to say it is because the electronic nannies are not there to save feeble drivers from oversteer and with a twitchy throttle that is more likely to happen.

[SergioK]

Originally Posted by mocohead

It's not the throttle sensitivity Sergio - you're just not used to that much power

If you can't drive fast with 170hp, an extra 75hp isn't going to help.

[mocohead]

Originally Posted by SergioK

If you can't drive fast with 170hp, an extra 75hp isn't going to help.

[SergioK]

At O'fest years ago, in my E36 318i, I dialed in and passed someone in an E36 M3. (That's almost a 100hp differential) Sometimes you learn to do more with less.

[GET A GUN]

Went out tonight and tested the setting with my new gtech.
Black, red and green were with dsc off. Holding button down for 5 or so seconds. Shifter to the left in sport manual mode.
Blue run was in sport + mode shifter to the left sport manual mode.

Car has JB4 in map 1 on 91 octane and ER down pipe for these runs. No meth.
MandH drag radials.

Blue run the little light flickered telling me it was pulling throttle and applying the brake. Not cool.

When ever I'm on race gas and map 2 sport+ the little lights flickers even in 3rd gear. My best runs are always in DSC off mode.

[SergioK]

Hmm, DSC will only engage when the car oversteers, not straight line. Perhaps this is the eLSD kicking in though I assumed it only brakes one wheel, not throttle back too.

Now I'm wondering if you need to first hit the DSC button then push and hold it.

They should put a button in the glovebox that turns it all off with one flick of the switch.

[Balzz]

Funny I just observed the same thing with turning off dsc and dtc completely. Telltale was the lack of overrun burble kn the exhaust. I can't figure out a combo that allows the sport steering and throttle response while turning off the nannies.

[Balzz]

Eureka!!! Go to sport mode, do a donut and the software goes into error mode with dsc shut off but steering and throttle remains in sport.

[utenigma]

Ha-so all I have to do is hoon around the pit before staging

I'm sure the autocross officials will love that!

[utenigma]

Originally Posted by heldraget

One key benefit with Sport+ with the AT8 is kickdown being disabled, in Sport it's enabled even with shifter in DS mode. Question is, will 'DSC off' mode also disable kickdown?

Tried this out the other day - both DSC off and Sport+ disable the AT8's automatic kickdown when you're in manual mode

[nicknaz]

Good to know this is how the F30 acts in these situations. In my Z435 the adaptive suspension goes into comfort mode with DSC off (there is much complaining about this over in the E89 forums).

I went with the passive suspension (option 704) instead of the adaptive dampers (option ZDH) for my 335 in part to avoid having to second guess what the suspension will decide to do.

[JMK007]

I messed around with different settings today and may have to retract a statement I made in a previous thread. Until today, I thought you could not fully turn off all stability control nannies (and still have the sporty suspension, steering, and throttle response of sport +). However, I now think you can have all this if you go into sport mode (not sport +) and then turn off the traction control. The suspension, steering, and throttle response feel like sport + but I don't think there is an stability control nannies. The only way for me to fully test this is on track or in an empty parking lot.

[DVC]

Interesting... have you been able to confirm this yet?

(Are there any throttle/steering/suspension differences between Sport and Sport+ modes, or is it just the DSC settings?)

[utenigma]

I messed with it this weekend - the car doesn't care which mode you're in when you set it to DSC off - it will always do the same thing - being

Sport+ - traction control reduced (called mode DTC in the manual), ride set to firm, steering set to firm, throttle set to sensitive, transmission to sport
Sport - user selectable for ride/steering and throttle/transmission, traction control normal (Called mode DSC in the manual)
DSC OFF - traction control disabled, electronic limited slip differential program enabled (Automatic differential brake), throttle control normal, transmission to normal, steering firm, ride firm

Some of this is also documented in the training manuals for the F30, chassis dynamics, that came out since this thread was started

At autocross, I always use DSC OFF and slide the transmission left into sport, then select manual. The other modes cause the throttle to have an electronic nanny and powering out of a turn it can pull throttle on you. DSC OFF turns that nanny off. Additionally DSC OFF is the only mode that uses the ADB (automatic differential brake, or electronic LSD) which is invaluable when trying to apply power early out of a tight corner (until the mechanical LSD's for the F30 become available )

[DVC]

Good info - thanks!
When you say you use DSC off at AutoX, you mean actually holding the button down (for what is it, 5 or 10 seconds?) to disable DSC and DTC, right? I guess when doing manual shifts with the sport paddles, the only compromise would be the non-sport throttle mapping...

Odd that "ADB" (eLSD) is not active except for DSC off mode...
I assume "Auto Stability Control ASC" is the power-cutting/individual-brake-application function of the DSC/DTC... but what then is "Driving dynamics control FDR"? Seems like it would be the same thing.

[utenigma]

Originally Posted by DVCperformance

Good info - thanks!
When you say you use DSC off at AutoX, you mean actually holding the button down (for what is it, 5 or 10 seconds?) to disable DSC and DTC, right? I guess when doing manual shifts with the sport paddles, the only compromise would be the non-sport throttle mapping...

So yeah, when I get in the car, hold down the button for a few seconds until the idrive shows DSC OFF and the speedometer shows DSC OFF next to the gear indication. Then slide the transmission stick into sport, then push it forward to lock it in manual mode.

I wouldn't call the non-sport throttle mapping a compromise - the full range of throttle control is still available, it's just linear in application. With the "Sport" throttle mapping, 75% of the throttle is applied in the first 25% of pedal travel. It's a marketing tool - it makes the car "feel faster" because you barely touch the gas and it goes. When you want to feed in power coming out of a corner, the last thing you want is a touchy throttle - the linear nature of the normal throttle mapping is much easier to control, makes it much easier to feed in just the right amount of power to keep the rear tires right on the edge of grip.

[utenigma]

Originally Posted by DVCperformance

Odd that "ADB" (eLSD) is not active except for DSC off mode...
I assume "Auto Stability Control ASC" is the power-cutting/individual-brake-application function of the DSC/DTC... but what then is "Driving dynamics control FDR"? Seems like it would be the same thing.

Realized I didn't address the second part: eLSD not being on in Sport+ makes sense in that the traction control and throttle nanny is still on, so you shouldn't get into a power on oversteer situation b/c the car will just pull throttle when you do and start braking individual wheels to straighten your line out

ASC (automatic stability control) has three functions and they all have to do with putting power down

• ADB - Automatic Differential Brake (eLSD - only active in DSC OFF mode)
• MMR - Engine Torque Control (Throttle nanny)
• MSR - Engine drag control (Engine braking)

The combined functions of ASC work in 3 modes
if your running in normal or sport mode - ADB OFF/MMR full/MSR full
if your in Sport+ or click the traction button once - ADB OFF/MMR reduced/MSR on
if you hold the traction button (DSC OFF) - ADB ON/MMR off/MSR on

Driving dynamics control FDR is a function of the Integrated Chassis Management (ICM). DSC (the braking of wheels to keep the car from spinning) lives under the driving dynamics control.

So simply-ish

DSC = keep the car going where the steering wheel is pointed
ASC = futz with how the engines power is delivered to the ground

[n55x3]

good info utenigma. Didn't realize which conditions set eLSD to ON. Will have to play with that in the near future.

[DVC]

OK, that makes sense... so it sounds like Driving dynamics control (including DSC) is focused on the braking functions of stability management, and ASC focuses on the engine power management functions. Makes sense that these two complimentary functions are in lock-step in the different mode settings.

Good point about the throttle response. Do you generally drive around in Sport mode with the throttle mapped to comfort, and everything else set to firm? (Too bad you can't customize each setting in Sport+ as well so you could get the benefit of sport-oriented ASC/DSC)

Regarding the LSD, I was thinking of making one of my first mods to this car be a mechanical LSD. Seems like those who have done this say it's their best mod, as it improves the experience in any/all conditions. I've heard that mechanical LSDs are fine with ASC/DSC systems, but I wonder if there would be any conflict with the eLSD if the car is set to DSC-off...(?)

[utenigma]

Originally Posted by DVCperformance

...
Good point about the throttle response. Do you generally drive around in Sport mode with the throttle mapped to comfort, and everything else set to firm?
...
Regarding the LSD, I was thinking of making one of my first mods to this car be a mechanical LSD. Seems like those who have done this say it's their best mod, as it improves the experience in any/all conditions. I've heard that mechanical LSDs are fine with ASC/DSC systems, but I wonder if there would be any conflict with the eLSD if the car is set to DSC-off...(?)

Yes my sport mode is set to "Chassis only"

There shouldn't be an issue with the eLSD and mechanical LSD's - the eLSD takes time to figure out it should step in, mechanical LSD's don't so as long as the lock-up percentage of the mechanical LSD is at or above the eLSD's setting the eLSD will never get used because the mechanical LSD will kick in first.

The telling thing would be when BMW offers the M-performance LSD for these cars if they require a re-program with them or not

[JMK007]

To clarify - on a manual, you cannot turn DSC/traction control off if you are in Sport +. It just won't allow it. However, if you go into Sport or Normal, you can turn DSC off. Therefore, on a manual, if you want DSC/traction control off and the firmer suspension, firmer steering, and increased throttle response, go into Sport and turn DSC off.

I will test my theory on the next rainy day in a parking lot.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by DVCperformance

...Good point about the throttle response. Do you generally drive around in Sport mode with the throttle mapped to comfort, and everything else set to firm? (Too bad you can't customize each setting in Sport+ as well so you could get the benefit of sport-oriented ASC/DSC)...

I was thinking about this yesterday driving home... since you can just push the DSC button in Sport mode (which puts the car in DTC mode, and results in the same sport-oriented stability control settings as Sport+ mode anyway), I guess there's really nothing lacking with not being able to customize the settings in Sport+

EDIT - a brief press/release of the DTC button (to activate DTC, or "Traction" settings) actually engages "Comfort" mode... so it is not possible to retain Sport driveline/chassis settings and the more lenient (but still active) stability control parameters of DTC outside of "Sport+" mode.