[$howtime456]

Originally Posted by FSociety

$howtime456 thought u said u got TorqueByte already -_____- LOL

OP, which flash tune are you getting should get advice from them.
We have a really good/discussion in the "Bootmod3 Enthusiast Facebook Group" with F80Paul on his various testing in every scenario

Never said i had torquebyte.. said i was going to get it after our JB4 discussion.

[Twisted Tuning]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The JB4 monitors ignition advance in cylinders 1-6 at around 10 times per second, and determines timing stability by comparing the average actual timing against a factory timing profile which is programmed in to the JB4, and by evaluating timing drops in individual cylinders as they occur whose timing is slowly reintroduced by the DME.

That timing data is used in a variety of ways by the JB4 for auto tuning purposes, as part of the integrated water/meth safety (just because you're injecting fluid doesn't mean you're injecting enough to prevent knock), and any other internal algorithm that needs to take in to account engine knock and timing advance.

Regarding methanol safety it's a complex issue. The DME runs long term timing and fuel adaptions and even if using meth on a "pump gas" map timing can be advanced by the DME, and when that octane and fueling is suddenly removed, quick knock occurs the DME is not always able to properly deal with, and pistons can be broken. This was a common issue with the N54 in 2008 using the JB3 system and non-integrated meth kits before BMS introduced CANbus and their WMI safety integration systems. Running WMI without a properly integrated safety system is just playing Russian roulette with your engine. Running less aggressive tuning can reduce the risks but who installs a WMI kit to run less aggressive tuning?

Programming the flash tune to react to knock with load changes is too slow of a response to be effective in this regard. If you can run a flow sensor input in to the DME then that would be the best way to do it "flash only". I use quotes because you're still using a piggyback for the WMI and flow sensor control. Just not a JB4 piggyback. But like most features implemented "flash only" it becomes a compromise solution. Kinda does the same thing, but not really. Devil is always in the details.

Mike

You just said what I said but worded it differently. Fact is, the JB4 has no idea what the Timing target is that's programmed into the DME if its not factory timing (or whatever BMS programmed it with). And just about every person running the JB4 is not on factory timing, because most have custom BEFs. So again, the JB4, does not know what timing the DME is shooting for. We both agree here, it bases its logic of "Good timing to raise boost" off of an average. That very logic is why it REQUIRES several pulls to know whether or not to increase the boost in respect to boost additive or reduce it.

FACT, DME pulling timing is and will always be faster than the JB4 reacting over several pulls. Because like I said the DME pulls timing and reduces and raises load in real-time (instantly) as a function of what ever settings you tune into it. I'm not sure how I can explain it any better.

Sure, there are times a quick large knock may not be caught be the DME and cause catastrophic failure. It happens on Racecars with hundreds of thousands of dollars into tuning and logging equipment (on just one car). So for you to make a post (portion of) insinuating that the JB4 would catch it, is quite silly.

Yes, flow reading tied to the DME would improve things (which is coming with flex fuel). But everything I say is true.

But, I'm not going to keep going back and forth about it. So I'll agree to disagree and move on. I appreciate your input though, and I'm sure other do as well.

[kevinjt]

The fact is that seeing this "debate" is good for everyone. Is good for people like me who want to learn more about how Flash DME or Jb4 BEF works.. Pros.. Cons.....

With all this information every person can get to their own conclusions and choose any of the solutions. Thank you for for the information to you both Twisted Tuning and Mike.

More info is always welcome.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Twisted Tuning

You just said what I said but worded it differently. Fact is, the JB4 has no idea what the Timing target is that's programmed into the DME if its not factory timing (or whatever BMS programmed it with). And just about every person running the JB4 is not on factory timing, because most have custom BEFs. So again, the JB4, does not know what timing the DME is shooting for. We both agree here, it bases its logic of "Good timing to raise boost" off of an average. That very logic is why it REQUIRES several pulls to know whether or not to increase the boost in respect to boost additive or reduce it.

FACT, DME pulling timing is and will always be faster than the JB4 reacting over several pulls. Because like I said the DME pulls timing and reduces and raises load in real-time (instantly) as a function of what ever settings you tune into it. I'm not sure how I can explain it any better.

Sure, there are times a quick large knock may not be caught be the DME and cause catastrophic failure. It happens on Racecars with hundreds of thousands of dollars into tuning and logging equipment (on just one car). So for you to make a post (portion of) insinuating that the JB4 would catch it, is quite silly.

Yes, flow reading tied to the DME would improve things (which is coming with flex fuel). But everything I say is true.

But, I'm not going to keep going back and forth about it. So I'll agree to disagree and move on. I appreciate your input though, and I'm sure other do as well.

The DME always manages timing directly with the JB4 in place and the JB4 has no influence on how the DME ranges timing. The main component the JB4 uses to evaluate timing health is the same thing you'd use when looking at your customers data logs. Timing drops across various cylinders. Except, the JB4 is looking at them all the time full time. Not just when someone happens to be logging and then happens to evaluate those logs after the fact. Since the JB4 is out there real time it can be programmed to make tuning changes on the fly as a function of those timing drops, and all the other engine data pouring in from CANbus. This data when combined with WMI flow data can then be used to optimize WMI control and safety. And since the JB4 is running the WMI pump and solenoid it can adjust WMI flow or cut off WMI all together if appropriate. Or users can change maps in dash in seconds disabling WMI if they suddenly want less aggressive tuning. And being able to monitor boost, timing drops, or WMI flow IN DASH is huge for real time driver feedback.

Having the JB4 able to run autotuning logic provides a lot more flexibility over anything the DME can do itself as you're not confined by the DME's logic paths. It takes the DME quite a bit of knock before it decides to travel down the super knock load and fueling tables. With the JB4 you can program it to do whatever you want as quickly as you want. And with the ability to do back end flash maps now there is an endless world of possibilities on the tuning end.

These are not mutually exclusive technologies. BMS always says do as much as you can on the flash side and then use the JB4 to do everything else. As far as WMI is concerned JB4 is a much better and more feature rich piggyback than the torque byte piggyback you're using that doesn't have CANbus or even 10% of the functions a JB4 provides. And BMS provides those back end flash maps fully unlocked fully free so customers who want to tweak things or hire 3rd party tuners still can to fine tune as much as they want.

Anyway it's early days in development so as things progress I'll post more details on the various things those trying to tune flash only are missing out on.

Mike

[Twisted Tuning]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The DME always manages timing directly with the JB4 in place and the JB4 has no influence on how the DME ranges timing. The main component the JB4 uses to evaluate timing health is the same thing you'd use when looking at your customers data logs. Timing drops across various cylinders. Except, the JB4 is looking at them all the time full time. Not just when someone happens to be logging and then happens to evaluate those logs after the fact. Since the JB4 is out there real time it can be programmed to make tuning changes on the fly as a function of those timing drops, and all the other engine data pouring in from CANbus. This data when combined with WMI flow data can then be used to optimize WMI control and safety. And since the JB4 is running the WMI pump and solenoid it can adjust WMI flow or cut off WMI all together if appropriate. Or users can change maps in dash in seconds disabling WMI if they suddenly want less aggressive tuning. And being able to monitor boost, timing drops, or WMI flow IN DASH is huge for real time driver feedback.

Having the JB4 able to run autotuning logic provides a lot more flexibility over anything the DME can do itself as you're not confined by the DME's logic paths. It takes the DME quite a bit of knock before it decides to travel down the super knock load and fueling tables. With the JB4 you can program it to do whatever you want as quickly as you want. And with the ability to do back end flash maps now there is an endless world of possibilities on the tuning end.

These are not mutually exclusive technologies. BMS always says do as much as you can on the flash side and then use the JB4 to do everything else. As far as WMI is concerned JB4 is a much better and more feature rich piggyback than the torque byte piggyback you're using that doesn't have CANbus or even 10% of the functions a JB4 provides. And BMS provides those back end flash maps fully unlocked fully free so customers who want to tweak things or hire 3rd party tuners still can to fine tune as much as they want.

Anyway it's early days in development so as things progress I'll post more details on the various things those trying to tune flash only are missing out on.

Mike

I'm trying to leave this alone, but part of this post bothers the heck out of me.

RED:

You are aware that a person does not have to be logging for the DME to do its job, correct? Once the DME is programmed how you want it, it handles everything as you programmed it. So I'm not sure why you just said what you said as if the JB4 is doing something special by monitoring. If a person wants to datalog or monitor the DME, they can. The DME doesn't stop doing its job because you're not looking.


BLUE:

are you aware that you can set the DME to drop as much load as you want it to in response to timing corrections? INSTANTLY. This is NATIVE DME logic. I can program the DME to target 220 load if ZERO corrections/knock are being registered. Then have it target 150 load if -3 correction is pulled. This happens in real time faster than a JB4 can see it. Superknock reactions are different and can be altered as well when they intervene. You know how many JB4 logs I have seen with -6 to -10 retard on cylinders and still targeting boost full tilt? too many to list.


Long Story Short, in direct reference to Meth control. With the TB/MC-1 controller, that will kill boost in the event of a pump or meth flow issue with the meth system. Anything else, DME is there for that.

If someone wants steering wheel controls, by all means run the JB4. But outside the Steering wheel controls. Flash only with an ECU made to run the car the right way (not altering signal to trick the DME into doing something) is the best way to operate Modern day cars.

This will ALWAYS be the case in reference to Performance Calibration and making Power.....

1. Fully Suited Standalone
2. Fully Suited DME Flash Tuning
3. DME Flash w/piggyback
4. Piggyback

That order will never change. Unless you happen to be running some old tech ECU from the 80s-90s. then 3 may switch places with 2. We are at a point where Factory DME's are so advanced they can handle everything.

[BMWcurious]

The DME is detecting and acting on new knock information 35 times faster than the JB4 is logging it.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by BMWcurious

The DME is detecting and acting on new knock information 35 times faster than the JB4 is logging it.

Exactly, maybe even 100 times faster. Nothing changes there with a JB4. In a worst case scenario the DME detects the knock and does short term timing corrections to try to avoid melt down until the JB4 is able to see those drops and reduce the boost target, increase WMI flow, warn driver, etc.

With a flash the DME will knock quite a bit before average timing drops low enough for it to travel down a knock path on load targeting. And the driver will never know what is happening. With the JB4 that logic is fully programmable and can be made as sensitive as you'd like.

But the best case scenario and entire point is with JB4 boost only being increased after WMI is flowing sufficiently to support and fuel the higher boost levels so you avoid tip in knock in the first place while WMI is spooling, and avoid knock from sudden flow droppage during a pull, WMI kit failing to turn on, etc.

Mike

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

You guys need to try the spray and pray method, it's much easier...

[BMWcurious]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

With a flash the DME will knock quite a bit before average timing drops low enough for it to travel down a knock path on load targeting.

The routine that limits load requests based on knock and RPM runs every 20ms which is a "slow" path because it is airflow control which is a slow means to react to knock. Program it how you like, other tuners find it reacts instantly when setup appropriately for the response and the boost they want.

There is no point leaving the table virtually flat, but raising it across the board when you are running much higher boost and then being surprised when it doesn't react appropriately. Or effectively doing the same by manipulating sensor inputs or taking over the wastegate.

[harkes]

I have these two logs showing JB4 meth safety operation. Both logs in Map3 with 50 adder and scaling at 60. Full flow = 20psi. What happens in the time frame of milliseconds - no idea, but boost is being reduced as a result of flow in real time.

[harkes]

I am guessing that this is a DME "desperately" trying to control a "too much boost and not enough octane" situation?

Not my finest Map6 moment...

[NO_USER_]

Originally Posted by proTUNING Freaks

Concept of flex fuel on a platform that has capacity to run 20% ethanol given hardware fuel system limitations is also something to keep in mind as for what it can do today. As for the Pi you're not necessarily stuck with linux either and could use an RTOS no big deal tons of ways to skin the cat, not that we're into hurting cats!

How much E85 can I put in my FBO M2? E20 blend or E30? On Cali 91 octane...

Or I can't put E85 as the HPFP is already at it's limit?

Thanks!

[harkes]

So with DME controlling boost an extremely simple on/off system with a Hobbs switch and a relay could be used? On/off work fine with JB4...

Twisted Tuning

[gx5_027]

Originally Posted by harkes

So with DME controlling boost an extremely simple on/off system with a Hobbs switch and a relay could be used? On/off work fine with JB4...

Twisted Tuning

Or maybe that's where that bluetooth addition to the controller would do its thing?

[harkes]

Originally Posted by f32_027

Or maybe that's where that bluetooth addition to the controller would do its thing?

Do what? I am talking about running a system without a controller. Just an on/off system activated by a Hobbs switch.

[gx5_027]

Originally Posted by harkes

Do what? I am talking about running a system without a controller. Just an on/off system activated by a Hobbs switch.

Gotcha

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by harkes

I am guessing that this is a DME "desperately" trying to control a "too much boost and not enough octane" situation?

Not my finest Map6 moment...

Still don't know how guys still read BMS logs, throw it into datazap.me

Not sure if you resolved this yet or not.

[bobalis]

Reading this thread has me seriously questioning my level of intellect. I feel like there are maybe 10 words used that I understand their meaning in the context in which they were used. There is so much knowledge here and it is so incredibly far beyond my scope of comprehension, it's actually depressing me.

Sorry for the random peanut gallery comment, I'll just let myself out.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by bobalis

Reading this thread has me seriously questioning my level of intellect. I feel like there are maybe 10 words used that I understand their meaning in the context in which they were used. There is so much knowledge here and it is so incredibly far beyond my scope of comprehension, it's actually depressing me.

Sorry for the random peanut gallery comment, I'll just let myself out.

It's not too complicated at the end of the day. It's a pump, tank line and nozzle.

[harkes]

zinner
Hi. Just got my CM5-LT. How did you wire it for RPM and MAP (or did you use TMAP) signal? I actually just want mine to spray at +10psi no matter the RPM so maybe that signal isn't even needed?

[HKD126]

Originally Posted by harkes

zinner
Hi. Just got my CM5-LT. How did you wire it for RPM and MAP (or did you use TMAP) signal? I actually just want mine to spray at +10psi no matter the RPM so maybe that signal isn't even needed?

TorqByte makes and OBD2 plug break out. That’s what I ordered with my CM5-LT. I’ll be installing it later this week.

[harkes]

Originally Posted by HKD126

TorqByte makes and OBD2 plug break out. That's what I ordered with my CM5-LT. I'll be installing it later this week.

Great info!!

This is perfect. I'll just hardwire it like I did for the JB4 so all looks stock Ehmm, but what about MAP? Should be able to tap into the factory MAP/TMAP?