[wdeerfield]

I like the idea of giving a vendor my list of bolt ons and they recommend the tune for my car and i'm able to flash it myself. Im not looking to make it on street outlaws or set any world records but a nice tune to compliment my mods for daily driving is just fine by me. Not having to open up the ECU is a nice perk now as well. OBD flash is awesome. Looking forward to having it done this summer.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by matty088

there isnt a right or wrong. its all about the needs of the owner. I think a pro tune is a better solution for me....and not by a little. There are clear reasons

No doubt a professional tuner is a great route to maximize horsepower. The thing to realize is most OTS (off the shelf maps) are conservative. They leave power on the table for safety. This because exterior conditions vary such as temperatures, humidity, modifications, octane, engine wear, specific parts installed and so much more.

If you want to maximize power, a custom (or pro tuned) tune will always be ideal.

I think a little bit of Jargon and the title of the thread is throwing off what the subject of this thread really is.

Is the question if you should get a flash tune or if you should get a pro tune? For most people a professional or custom tune isn't recommended until you are done modding where you can than maximize horsepower.

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by ChrisFulton

Great!
Please make a thread and post your experience getting a "pro tune."
Tuner, process, cost, dyno/data logs, and why it was a better solution so that we can all check it out and learn.

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

No doubt a professional tuner is a great route to maximize horsepower. The thing to realize is most OTS (off the shelf maps) are conservative. They leave power on the table for safety. This because exterior conditions vary such as temperatures, humidity, modifications, octane, engine wear, specific parts installed and so much more.

If you want to maximize power, a custom (or pro tuned) tune will always be ideal.

I think a little bit of Jargon and the title of the thread is throwing off what the subject of this thread really is.

Is the question if you should get a flash tune or if you should get a pro tune? For most people a professional or custom tune isn't recommended until you are done modding where you can than maximize horsepower.

And Matty said his car will be a daily driver .
However, I think Matty's biggest issue is not being able to run catless without setting off the emissions police. The problem for him is the OTS tunes do not appear to be able to prevent this issue if he does goes catless. So the way to do it he feels is with a custom tune . Folks have told him to purchase a high flow cat which he feels will be an expensive restriction. So he wants a custom tune.

[matty088]

Ceedawg. Totally. The fabspeed is a beauty. thats the only one I'd consider. It's also 1400. Meanwhile I can get a dp for 250 and make the double the power. Dude. I swear you must Have a serious reading comprehension issue. Why must you say "restriction". Restriction just doesn't fit in this context at all and it's the last time I am gonna respond with that. The idea of the cat or cstless being a bottle neck comes into play when you want to run a lot of boost meth upgrades turbos etc. meaning really pushing the car to make power. However that's not what I am doing and the majority of the threads you are commenting on where you defend your choice of keeping the cat. It's just not relevant. Please get this thru your head. I am going to explain it once more and I know others have. A dp is shown to make great power in this platform. A person like me that wants to run bolt on has choice A where they add a tune ic exhaust and make 320hp and choice b where they run those plus a dp and make 370. I am not sure how the hell the term restriction comes into play. It's a or b. Add power or don't add power. You are talking 500hp applications and it's not relevant here or in other threads when the person is talking about a bolt on daily. JESUS

[matty088]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

No doubt a professional tuner is a great route to maximize horsepower. The thing to realize is most OTS (off the shelf maps) are conservative. They leave power on the table for safety. This because exterior conditions vary such as temperatures, humidity, modifications, octane, engine wear, specific parts installed and so much more.

If you want to maximize power, a custom (or pro tuned) tune will always be ideal.

I think a little bit of Jargon and the title of the thread is throwing off what the subject of this thread really is.

Is the question if you should get a flash tune or if you should get a pro tune? For most people a professional or custom tune isn't recommended until you are done modding where you can than maximize horsepower.

Hi jeff. Thanks for the post. I am wondering why people seem to be moving away from custom tunes and going obd when you can spend the same or slightly more for a custom...make more power, safer, and get the feautires you want. It's a question. I ask Bc I am not sure what I am missing and I totally get the ease of use notion. I don't understand the value of switching between maps. I don't think I ever switch between maps unless I am going from drag racing to a road coarse and thst would be solely to run less boost. Either way not many people here are doing both.

[matty088]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

Yea I just don't getthe hate.?.

I don't get the popcorn or the sarcastic initial comment

[paimon.soror]

Originally Posted by matty088

Why must you say "restriction". Restriction just doesn't fit in this context at all and it's the last time I am gonna respond with that.

A dp is shown to make great power in this platform.

I am not sure how the hell the term restriction comes into play.

slow down ... praytell, why does getting a high flow cat (which is nothing more than a catalyst with a smaller cell count per surface area [forget about quality of components for now]), or running catless produce (by your own words) more power without anything else added to the mix.

It isn't fairy dust

it is because a cat CAUSES A RESTRICTION IN THE EXHAUST FLOW thus creating more backpressure on the hot side of the turbo.

An engine is nothing more than an airpump ... more air in = more air out = power. You cannot have one without the other two.



EDIT: Do note, there is a HUGE difference between "restriction" and "restrictive". No one is debating the latter here, but certainly the former holds true.

[matty088]

Originally Posted by paimon.soror

slow down ... praytell, why does getting a high flow cat (which is nothing more than a catalyst with a smaller cell count per surface area [forget about quality of components for now]), or running catless produce (by your own words) more power without anything else added to the mix.

It isn't fairy dust

it is because a cat CAUSES A RESTRICTION IN THE EXHAUST FLOW thus creating more backpressure on the hot side of the turbo.

An engine is nothing more than an airpump ... more air in = more air out = power. You cannot have one without the other two.



EDIT: Do note, there is a HUGE difference between "restriction" and "restrictive". No one is debating the latter here, but certainly the former holds true.

Actuslly your wrong. He is saying something else
The way you are using restriction is accurate. The way he is isn't applicable to my or your car. He is saying that a car can make great power with a cat. He says it's Not a "restriction" in making power Bc newer high end cats like those found in high end European cars are efficient. That may be correct. He and, I believe you,have pointed to a few shops that are making 500whp with the stock cat in place. I am saying GREAT. that is the case. I am not debating that. A bmw can make great power with a cat in place. HOWEVER!!!! This concept isn't applicable in MY OWN car and objective. My goal is to make good power via boltons and a tune only. In that case you have two scenarios as I outlined before and commented in your thread. I can make 320ish with tune ic. Or I can make 355-37o with tune ic and DP. I totally don't get the debate. It's well documented.

I am not debating that a cat has to be removed to make power, a lot of power . Like not at all. I am saying that for a bolt on lightly modded car removing the cat getting a tune. Running more boost. Installing a fmic to keep it safe will make much much more power than with the stock cat in place.

This is well known information.

[matty088]

In case you want to argue further here is his point that he expressed many times that I basically have brain damage from reading. He is arguing about something entirely different than what me and u want to do. And him for that matter (based on what he has written elsewhere. In terms of his own objectives. )

Originally Posted by ceedawg

OK then let me say this "the DP in the F3X N55 car is not the main culprit in restricting the cars power". FACTS! Does it restrict some power,YES but not to where it would negate what a tune and Bolt ons would add. If anything it would certainly free up things more if it were eliminated and replaced with a catless dp. I don't see this as a major problem in the M's AMGs or Audi S or RS's which have the stock cat with tune and bolt ons. it is simply not the case as being the main restriction. The stock Euro exhaust sytems on the cars today are very very efficient. Alot of them are built by aftermarket performance companies put on stock cars.Like many many others have shown and proven what you are saying is subjective and not the case for most cars today.

Add this also Some cars come out of the factory running 21psi stock,factory cat and EGTs are not a concern as well with the stock cat.

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by paimon.soror

slow down ... praytell, why does getting a high flow cat (which is nothing more than a catalyst with a smaller cell count per surface area [forget about quality of components for now]), or running catless produce (by your own words) more power without anything else added to the mix.

It isn't fairy dust

it is because a cat CAUSES A RESTRICTION IN THE EXHAUST FLOW thus creating more backpressure on the hot side of the turbo.

An engine is nothing more than an airpump ... more air in = more air out = power. You cannot have one without the other two.



EDIT: Do note, there is a HUGE difference between "restriction" and "restrictive". No one is debating the latter here, but certainly the former holds true.

Thank you!! I do not know what I am saying that is hard for him to comprehend but I'm the one who has issues with reading comprehension! Im done!!

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by matty088

Actuslly your wrong. He is saying something else
The way you are using restriction is accurate. The way he is isn't applicable to my or your car. He is saying that a car can make great power with a cat. He says it's Not a "restriction" in making power Bc newer high end cats like those found in high end European cars are efficient. That may be correct. He and, I believe you,have pointed to a few shops that are making 500whp with the stock cat in place. I am saying GREAT. that is the case. I am not debating that. A bmw can make great power with a cat in place. HOWEVER!!!! This concept isn't applicable in MY OWN car and objective. My goal is to make good power via boltons and a tune only. In that case you have two scenarios as I outlined before and commented in your thread. I can make 320ish with tune ic. Or I can make 355-37o with tune ic and DP. I totally don't get the debate. It's well documented.

I am not debating that a cat has to be removed to make power, a lot of power . Like not at all. I am saying that for a bolt on lightly modded car removing the cat getting a tune. Running more boost. Installing a fmic to keep it safe will make much much more power than with the stock cat in place. I said it is not the main reason or culprit in limiting the HP of a stock,lightly modded or heavily modded N55 powered car.

This is well known information.

You obviously misunderstand me! Yes a cat is restrictive in that it robs some hp. Yes you can still make hp with a cat. Yes you can make more hp without the cat. Basic English and I cannot repeat it enough. You sound like you are all over the place man. I said the stock cat is not the main culprit in restricting hp in your car like the exh mani and stock turbo. Quote me right please. Everything here is what I have said and have been saying. you are the only one who seems to have an issue with what I am saying. Just get your custom tune and show us what you have. SOLVED!

[matty088]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

You obviously misunderstand me! Yes a cat is restrictive in that it robs some hp. Yes you can still make hp with a cat. Yes you can make more hp without the cat. Basic English and I cannot repeat it enough. You sound like you are all over the place man.

No! I am I am not misunderstanding. What you are saying is completely out of left field. It's like someone asking what color the sky is and you chime in with the ocean water temp is 70degrees.

it's you man. You are adding information that isn't relevant at to a discussion/question. It's like you have some stupid axe to grind. It's ridiculous. People like myself or the other guy and some others say they want to run a bolt on car and are trying to decide if they should get a dp. You chime in with oh you can still make power with a cat in place. No shit! But that's isn't the question. You are making comparisons to bolt on cars vs ragged edge 500plus cars. Etc. it's stupid. The correct response, since it's been asked a million times,is, dp can add significant power in a bolt on car. However the draw backs are smell, noise, and emissions. The user must make their own judgement if those things are something they want to deal with for the additional hp which is a significant amount

My advice to the other dude is... given the weight of these cars I think a tune isn't enough to keep most happy for the long term. I recommend a dp or if you don't mind spending get the fabspeed. But do something. Bc the gains are significant when removing the stock cat. This is all well
Documented.

[matty088]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

You obviously misunderstand me! Yes a cat is restrictive in that it robs some hp. Yes you can still make hp with a cat. Yes you can make more hp without the cat. Basic English and I cannot repeat it enough. You sound like you are all over the place man. I said the stock cat is not the main culprit in restricting hp in your car like the exh mani and stock turbo. Quote me right please. Everything here is what I have said and have been saying. you are the only one who seems to have an issue with what I am saying. Just get your custom tune and show us what you have. SOLVED!

No one is considering upgrading the turbos man. ThSts not part of my question or the three others u have chimed in on over the past two days. ThSts what I am saying. You are adding unrelevant stuff to the equation. I am guessing it's to rationalize your own decision. It's just annoyed me.

[matty088]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

Thank you!! I do not know what I am saying that is hard for him to comprehend but I'm the one who has issues with reading comprehension! Im done!!

No. Not "thank you". He assumed you are using common sense and you aren't as I just clearly quoted your point. What he said and out said are completely different.

You can be "done"all you want. But you are also completely out of your mind

[Zel335]

Originally Posted by matty088

Hi jeff. Thanks for the post. I am wondering why people seem to be moving away from custom tunes and going obd when you can spend the same or slightly more for a custom...make more power, safer, and get the feautires you want. It's a question. I ask Bc I am not sure what I am missing and I totally get the ease of use notion. I don't understand the value of switching between maps. I don't think I ever switch between maps unless I am going from drag racing to a road coarse and thst would be solely to run less boost. Either way not many people here are doing both.

Here is the thing, just because the tune is custom doesn't equate to better. As I said before, just because someone can give you a custom tune for your car doesn't make it good. You definitely want to know who is doing the tune and how they make the adjustments, what stock safety features they keep in place. I've seen plenty of issues world wide of these custom tuners destroying motors, but people sure swore by them at the start of their business.

Also map switching is a great feature, just because you have 93 everywhere you live doesn't mean you'll find it anywhere when you travel. To be able to switch maps in order to run at safe levels for the octane your dumping in is key for people. Unless your software company has figured out knock adaptation, which most haven't, you'll need map switching if you run anything past 91.

[matty088]

Originally Posted by Zel335

Here is the thing, just because the tune is custom doesn't equate to better. As I said before, just because someone can give you a custom tune for your car doesn't make it good. You definitely want to know who is doing the tune and how they make the adjustments, what stock safety features they keep in place. I've seen plenty of issues world wide of these custom tuners destroying motors, but people sure swore by them at the start of their business.

Also map switching is a great feature, just because you have 93 everywhere you live doesn't mean you'll find it anywhere when you travel. To be able to switch maps in order to run at safe levels for the octane your dumping in is key for people. Unless your software company has figured out knock adaptation, which most haven't, you'll need map switching if you run anything past 91.

I agree on most of what you saying. I would prefer an OTS. I would. Just Bc the data set is so large with those. Meaning hundreds of people have chimed in and have reported success with bm3 or mhd or aa etc. when u hire a tuner the data set is a couple guys. I totally hear you. Unfortunately there are just some things the OTS tunes aren't doing in this platform quiet yet. And I think if you actuslly have a great tuner near by you can, In theory, get a tune that is specific to your car and mods and hopefully more power and safer. Who knows thoug.

One thing I will add is that when it comes to the power aspect I never trusted dynos. They are all over the place. It's all about the ET AND TRAP. I am pretty sure the guy I am using dyno reports low numbers. I will 1000% be going to strip to get an accurate representation.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

And Matty said his car will be a daily driver .
However, I think Matty's biggest issue is not being able to run catless without setting off the emissions police. The problem for him is the OTS tunes do not appear to be able to prevent this issue if he does goes catless. So the way to do it he feels is with a custom tune . Folks have told him to purchase a high flow cat which he feels will be an expensive restriction. So he wants a custom tune.

People have to realize there is always a compromise, you can't always have your cake and eat it too. I got guys that want 1000HP cars and want their clutch to last 100K miles and drive like stock, it's just not going to happen

Originally Posted by matty088

Hi jeff. Thanks for the post. I am wondering why people seem to be moving away from custom tunes and going obd when you can spend the same or slightly more for a custom...make more power, safer, and get the feautires you want. It's a question. I ask Bc I am not sure what I am missing and I totally get the ease of use notion. I don't understand the value of switching between maps. I don't think I ever switch between maps unless I am going from drag racing to a road coarse and thst would be solely to run less boost. Either way not many people here are doing both.

I feel we are jumping all over the place here without understanding fully the question being asked.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I think there is some confusion on the jargon being used.

So I ask, what do you define as a custom tune?

What are you referring to when you say switching maps?

See with regards to map switching, tunes like JB4 and MHD offer different maps you can select based on octane and mods and that is why there is map switching, in case you change mods (or octane).

As far as a custom tune goes, well there are many interpretations of what that means. Are you referring to going to a local tuner and having them flash your car with a tune they made? Or are you referring to adjusting a OTS map to maximize power either locally or remotely. You can also custom tune a JB4 to maximize power too.

All these questions are hard to answer without knowing what tuning platform is being used and the end goal.

I think it's best to back track to find out what you are really trying to figure out here. I guess you are trying to weigh out all the options and what is the "best tune"?

I'll be the first to tell you there is no perfect solution.