[norMcal]

The F30 is a better looking car IMHO and I'm sure a lot details were improved. It is also true that whenever a new generation comes out, some will say that the the old one was better, the difference this time is that the 3 series has finally grown too large. Like it or not, it is a 5 series from years past. If I wanted a 5 series size car, I would have bought one. I understand the competition gets bigger and every generation of a certain model tends to get bigger to keep up with the competition............but what happened to being a leader in the market segment? BMW? Make the 3 series smaller and sportier and watch it open the gap to the competition again.

What is BMW going to do when the 3 series is the size of the 7 and the 1 series is the size of the 5? Are they going to make a sub zero series?

[Rupes]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

...they also said that when they named it one of the 10 Best Cars of 2012. Ever think that maybe you're easily led?

Guys posts a direct quote from C&D that says the E90 is better than the car that replaces it (similar to this article from R&T) and you mention an article on aesthetics and think he's the one that's easily lead? What part of, "the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30" was confusing for you? No one said the F30 was junk. As you point out its still a 10 best car, but that doesn't make it better than the previous 10 best BMW 3 series.

[Phaeron]

I understand the idea of size but that is very relative. I mean look at a Porsche 911.. Todays 911 is a stretch limo compared to the one 10 years ago.

Hell, my first car was a 1989 Camry and that thing is tiny compared to the behemoth which is your standard Camry.

The issue here is not that a single car is getting bigger.. they are ALL getting bigger. The upcoming 2 series i think will be the size of an E90....

This is a problem with the total industry as a whole.

[tony20009]

This discussion is unreal, but unsurprising.

First off, BMW want to sell as many cars as they can and maximize their market share. Producing cars that cater more to the sporting crowd than to the hoi polloi is probably not the best way to accomplish that for incorporating the sport "bones" into the car makes its price be higher if they must also include the gadgets and conveniences that many people want in a car costing $40K+. Thus, we have the F30. Period.

R&T and their ilk opine on vehicles and the magazines' preferences is for sporting performance, although day-to-day functionality is a factor. But it's a factor that's important to them when it suits their purposes. There's a reason for that: there's no dearth of cars that handle with great aplomb every need one could have of a car that must accomplish life's little chores. Also, R&T's writers are paid to have an opinion, so they most certainly will have one. And, like all the opinions shared on here, their opinion will be subjective and based on their priorities. After all, what's objective about saying one prefers apples to oranges?

Like R&T, I prefer the E9x cars. (I have yet to drive an F32, so that car doesn't play into my point of view.) But that's my opinion and I can tell you for sure that to the extent my opinion must guide my choices, it's the right opinion, and quite frankly, the only one that matters. But the fact is that BMW will very shortly have no new E9x vehicles available for sale. And since I only buy new cars, it doesn't matter that I prefer the E9x. I may choose to keep my E92 when the time comes to get a new DD; I may not. The undeniable fact is that I'm able to assess my own situation and choose a car that best meets my needs. What R&T has to say is nice to read, and I enjoy reading theirs and their competitors magazines, but all of them are little more than an very effective sleep aid to me.

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

...
For this test, I say it again.

No surprises.

If it was 5 years ago and they brought out an E46 they would swoon for it and choose it over the E90. That is what they do.

These guys are not spending money on getting the best all around car-DD for their families. They are just visiting, vacationing.

... the F30 [is] more appealing than the E90, enough so where people vote with money and make the choice to live with it every day.
...
There are reasons I and many others found enough good reasons to pass on the E90 for DD duties in the past 5 years. ...I wanted a second BMW parked next to my first. But [the E90] just gave me too many reasons to pass. The F30 did not.

...

(Apologies, J, for the messed up formatting in quoting you....I tried to fix it, but this thing didn't want to follow my directions.)

I can't say yet whether I buy the "vacation" argument or not. I can say that I agree the F30 handles DD chores better than the E90, even if only by dint of its greater interior space and potential to deliver better fuel economy. But then comparing the two versions of 328 on the basis of their aptness as DDs isn't what R&T were doing.

As for voting with one's money, I probably won't ever buy an F30/F32 to drive as my DD. Not because I have an issue with it, for I don't, I bought one for my son, but because there's nothing wrong with my E92 and as long as that continues to be the case, I won't need to replace it. The F30's a fine car, but it's not so fine that it makes me feel I need to race out and buy one.

Moreover, I'm not so certain (and I mean not certain), as a line of argument, that in this case folks' acquisition of an F30 matters. It seems, based on what I read here on B-post, that the vast majority of folks lease their BMWs. Those folks don't have a lot of choice. The F30 is the best car in its class, so one can't blame someone for choosing it. Also, I hardly expect folks who lease to jump on here and say that their cars are crap or sub-par in some way. That's not what R&T were saying.

I'm guessing that you buy your cars. And, I glean from your other posts on B-post that you are something of a practical fellow, much as I am. Therefore, I wonder to what extent your not getting an E9x is a function of simply having a DD that worked just fine and, much as I feel about the F3x, the next generation 3er, nice as it was, simply wasn't compelling enough to warrant dashing out to get one. Though I know, barring some misfortune, I won't ever personally have an F3x, it's pretty likely that I will buy the next version of 3er to replace my E92, if for no other reason than that by then, my E92 will be a bit long in the tooth and I'll just want something new. (Hopefully it'll be "want" not "must be replaced" that motivates the purchase. We'll see...)

Originally Posted by Phaeron

...

Again though these are the same guys who have spoke ill on cars because they didn't offer a manual option.

You can discount what I am about to say but it is true. Review Magazines tend to only hand out bad review like these when either the Manufacturer is not spending enough adverts from them or the manufacturer is unwilling to contest. They do not make money to give consumer advice.. they make money by selling adverts. ...

Shit article by a shitty C&D spin off....

It's a shame that what was otherwise a germane and important consideration adding perspective for readers who may not have considered R&T's motivations was marred by your devolving, at the end of your post, into an ad hominem aspersion. I was with you up to that point, but upon seeing that, it made me question whether your pathos got in the way of sound analysis and whether your disagreement with R&T was thusly driven.

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

...Meanwhile, whether the E46 325 like you describe or the last E90s, they sounded great-so smooth, so sexy. But guess what. Slow is slow.
...

OK, I'll buy that slow is what it is. But, really, is either of them so slow that that shortcoming would make them fail as a DD? And isn't your central thesis from your initial post that the F30 is better as a DD? If that be so, what difference will one second sooner to 60 make when comparing on the DD merits two cars both which are already faster than the majority of other cars on the road? Nobody can claim either is too slow to do what's needed on public roads.

Nice exhaust/engine sounds and greater speed are bonus attributes, but as critical factors in choosing a DD do they matter much if at all? I would argue that the sounds have no weight at all in that contest, and that the speed, so long long as it's "enough" is inconsequential.

I agree that the F30 is better as a DD. R&T's editors apparently agree, or at least won't argue the point. Yes, overall, the F30 is better, for one cannot ignore any aspect if that is one's basis for judging. However, at least for myself, some of the the things that make the F30 better overall don't matter to me. For example, I don't care that it has more space; I drive a couple, I need space for two people. I don't drive as much as most folks (I just did pass the 50K mile mark on a '07); so the better fuel economy, though not lost on me, is of marginal value to me.

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

...So the BMW 328 has the best drivetrain in it's class. I think that's cool. But only when you come on here do you see people really poo-poo it.

That fact does make one wonder. The only thing I can offer is what my Aunt Louise told me as a child: never let the good be the enemy of the best. Perhaps the nay sayers, driven passionately by their love for BMWs, are only voicing their desire to see the car become even better. If You don't let it be known that an attribute displeases you, how can others know to take steps to do something about it? (I'll give folks the benefit of the doubt and hope they aren't just being argumentative for its own sake. )

Originally Posted by Sauber F1

I think what the writers are getting at, is that the the 3 series has grown in to a luxury 4 door sedan that is a far cry from what the original intent was. It is starting to be just another Camry or Lexus. Sure it is good car and still better than those, but like the article said, the gap to the competition has never been closer.

....

I don't agree that it's another Camry or Lexus. There can be no doubt, BMW must imbue in the 3er the qualities that Lexus/Camry buyers want. However, the 3erhas a sporting character -- to say nothing of actual ability -- that neither of those cars has. Even so, at least one recent review cited the Lexus IS as being the 3er's equal as goes sporting ability, but put the BMW ahead based on its greater utility as a DD. To the extent that BMW has customers like me for whom space and fuel economy don't matter much, BMW should be concerned, particularly in that the Toyota corporation has a well deserved reputation for building rock solid cars.

[Phaeron]

Originally Posted by jtodd

And everybody getting so mad about E90 preference is upset because they spent $45k on an F30 last month. Unfortunately just about everything you said here was your opinion and yours alone save a handful of people. Anyone who loves true BMW hated E90? Well if that were true than the F-series is even FURTHER from "traditional" BMW looks and it's "universal" that some of the "traditional" BMW feel was lost on the F30. Go on a @&$% Mercedes forum with that $#|!

No everything I said was fact. Sorry you like what even professional BMW drivers could not stand of the car.

How was the E90 traditional? It was rounded like a honda when every BMW before it was hard edged and boxy?


Sorry but the E90 was an abortion as it had a japanese look to it... the INTERIOR WAS HARD PLASTIC. The Driver cupholder was on the passanger side... Or you could get that hideous cupholder that sat to the right front of the stick. What "traditional" feel was lost with the F30?

The old BMWs drove smoother due to lack of the runflats which was a hallmark of the E90s rough drive. It wasn't the suspension it was the shitty dampers plus the run flats that gave the E90 its rough ride that was worse then an a Subaru STI. That isn't opinion that is fact.

Also.. you claim the F30 people are up in arms but what the fuck are you doing in the F30 when you E90 clowns have your own forums to skulk. I don't waste time in your abortion forums...

[Vector Pilot]

Having owned aE92-N52 and driven the F30 there's no comparison the N20 is far superior drivetrain, however with that being said, the E90/E92 steering and suspension still remains the gold standard for the segment. Now a word about R&T, lately they've been publishing comparisons of other cars that appear to be skewed to create controversy rather than report objective results. Guess they have to gin-up readership by presenting comparisons that results in a silly argument.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by Phaeron

I understand the idea of size but that is very relative. I mean look at a Porsche 911.. Todays 911 is a stretch limo compared to the one 10 years ago.

Hell, my first car was a 1989 Camry and that thing is tiny compared to the behemoth which is your standard Camry.

The issue here is not that a single car is getting bigger.. they are ALL getting bigger. The upcoming 2 series i think will be the size of an E90....

This is a problem with the total industry as a whole.

That is true. ALL cars are getting bigger. Why not buck the trend?

Every time the complaint about the size of the 3 series is made, somebody (not you) justifies it with the fact that BMW has to do it to sell cars because most people demand more room. I just don't get why those people can't by a 5 series? If you care more about luxury and size, get the next model up, why ruin the 3 series?

[jtodd]

Originally Posted by Phaeron

No everything I said was fact. Sorry you like what even professional BMW drivers could not stand of the car.

How was the E90 traditional? It was rounded like a honda when every BMW before it was hard edged and boxy?


Sorry but the E90 was an abortion as it had a japanese look to it... the INTERIOR WAS HARD PLASTIC. The Driver cupholder was on the passanger side... Or you could get that hideous cupholder that sat to the right front of the stick. What "traditional" feel was lost with the F30?

The old BMWs drove smoother due to lack of the runflats which was a hallmark of the E90s rough drive. It wasn't the suspension it was the shitty dampers plus the run flats that gave the E90 its rough ride that was worse then an a Subaru STI. That isn't opinion that is fact.

Also.. you claim the F30 people are up in arms but what the fuck are you doing in the F30 when you E90 clowns have your own forums to skulk. I don't waste time in your abortion forums...

I'm sorry is the hard plastic you're referring to the lining by the doors and such? Cuz if so than you're right it is cheap, but mostly the interior is leather and what isn't leather is not cheap plastic.

Also the run flats aren't very important because most people I know didn't use those after 1st tire replacement. The BMW "feel" I was referring to was mainly the steering as it feels more assisted. Of course is an option for "sport" mode which I'm sure you use w/ your f30.

Lastly, this is not an "F30" forum. This is bimmer post news for 3-series owners e90/f30.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Sauber F1

That is true. ALL cars are getting bigger. Why not buck the trend?

Every time the complaint about the size of the 3 series is made, somebody (not you) justifies it with the fact that BMW has to do it to sell cars because most people demand more room. I just don't get why those people can't by a 5 series? If you care more about luxury and size, get the next model up, why ruin the 3 series?

Because then R&T will compare the 3 Series to the A4 and complain "the 3 Series has less interior room and a smaller boot - you get much more for your money in an A4".

Got to keep up with the Joneses.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by jtodd

Lastly, this is not an "F30" forum. This is bimmer post news for 3-series owners e90/f30.

Really? (and I'm not kidding). The url is "f30post.com" and when I came from bimmer post, there was an option for E9x or F30, and I chose F30.

So I'm sorry, but I think you might be wrong there?

[Jay-K]

F30's suspension floats like a boat.. thats what all people said..

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by Phaeron

Crappy materials? You have an E36 that used Nagahide..... You also drive an E90 M3 which has vastly updated interior vs an E90 BMW who materials are about on par with a C5 corvette (which is horrible).

Do not try to use this "LOL you have to defend your purchase.. BUYERS REMORSE!" implication. An implied insult is just as bad a direct, but at least the person who directly insults has the bravado to directly demean someone.

I wasn't insulting anyone. I was attacked for my opinion and I felt that said something about the attacker. And I certainly wasn't comparing the interior of my e36 to an e90 or f30. I am simply agreeing with the review that the quality of materials took a step back from the e90. I do like the navigation screen though.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Jay-K

F30's suspension floats like a boat.. thats what all people said..

Yeah - and its wonderful while I transport cancer patients as a volunteer for the cancer society.

But then once I'm done with taxi duty, I have the Sport/Sport+ modes where the steering and suspension become vastly superior to the E90 as far as I am concerned. There's a stretch of road I drive often about 3 times a day (sometimes more) and my E90 would tramline shockingly on one part. I was worried the F30 would be worse with wider tyres, and yet there's not a single sign of anything wrong with the road in the F30 - tracks perfectly straight under braking, turns sharper, and launches out of that 90 degree corner vastly better than my E90 ever did - but I put that last part down to the N55 vs the N52. Hardly fair to judge the E90 on that part.

[jtodd]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Really? (and I'm not kidding). The url is "f30post.com" and when I came from bimmer post, there was an option for E9x or F30, and I chose F30.

So I'm sorry, but I think you might be wrong there?

Thanks for clarifying that, however I was basically saying this is featured news on the main bimmerpost.com, no one had to get on f30post to look for it.... Also "thecadman99" posted this up 8 days ago so whoever posted this in f30 forums was late...

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=858950

[KevRyd]

I have a 335i so your powers of deduction are weak

Originally Posted by Rupes

You know what they say about opinions...

In the meantime R&T and C&D disagree with you. What do they know anyway...they're just automotive magazines after all. BMW set out to make a very profitable car this time around, not the "ultimate driving machine." It seems to be working too, most BMW drivers don't care about driving dynamics as much as an extra 1 MPG and keeping up with the Joneses.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by accel

No one says e90 328i is faster than f30 328i. (But as far as I remember e90 335i is faster than f30 335i though). But if you care of acceleration this much - why haven't you bought yourself a Mustang?

If the a Mustang could be purchased with a comparable 8AT to the one from the F30 (or M3 DCT for that matter) I'd be driving a GT500.

But I mentioned a number of objective measurable to compare, you just chose to pull out the one easiest to toss in the "go buy a mustang" argument. But then again, I'm pretty sure the GT and Definitely the Boss will outperform any 3 series in any performance category (and now that I think about it, won't the GT keep up with the M3 and Boss beat it too?).

I just am not a fan of the exterior styling on anything outside of the GT500 and the interior isn't exactly that great either for that matter, although one can't deny the performance. This is a forum where we spend a lot of time talking about track performance and lap times, not sure why we'd look down on someone with a better performing car because the leather inside isn't quite as nice or it doesn't have a BMW badge on it.

You got me way off topic, but as with most things, apparently we tend to defend our purchases. I see you own a E9X, so of course you'd defend that choice. I personally didn't even consider a 3 series until the F30 came out, I found the E9x styling dated and wasn't a fan of the interior. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Good thing we have lots of options.

I personally can't wait until the next gen M3, Mustang, and Vettes come out (in that order).

[Phaeron]

Originally Posted by jtodd

I'm sorry is the hard plastic you're referring to the lining by the doors and such? Cuz if so than you're right it is cheap, but mostly the interior is leather and what isn't leather is not cheap plastic.

Also the run flats aren't very important because most people I know didn't use those after 1st tire replacement. The BMW "feel" I was referring to was mainly the steering as it feels more assisted. Of course is an option for "sport" mode which I'm sure you use w/ your f30.

Lastly, this is not an "F30" forum. This is bimmer post news for 3-series owners e90/f30.

Both F30 and the E90 have leather and in fact you can dd more leather then the E90... So try again.

As for assisted.. Both are Assisted and both due dick for communication unless you want to talk about road noise. There was already a war about steering wheel feedback that has proven without a doubt that most of you all have no idea what steering wheel communication is.

On a daily drive the steering wheel never tells you any information that you need to know regardless because you are not driving fast enough to get feedback from the steering wheel. So please tell me how the sporty you are driving when you do not in any way shape or form drive in a "spirited manner".

[Phaeron]

Originally Posted by WWM3

I wasn't insulting anyone. I was attacked for my opinion and I felt that said something about the attacker. And I certainly wasn't comparing the interior of my e36 to an e90 or f30. I am simply agreeing with the review that the quality of materials took a step back from the e90. I do like the navigation screen though.

What quality of materials for the interior? The E90 and the F30 use the same quality leather and the F30 has more expensive soft touch materials. The New steering wheel is SUPERIOR in terms of materials and build quality.

The main issue someone can bring up is the use of heavy steel control arms but the idea the interior or exterior is "cheaper" is patently false.

[Phaeron]

Originally Posted by Sauber F1

That is true. ALL cars are getting bigger. Why not buck the trend?

Every time the complaint about the size of the 3 series is made, somebody (not you) justifies it with the fact that BMW has to do it to sell cars because most people demand more room. I just don't get why those people can't by a 5 series? If you care more about luxury and size, get the next model up, why ruin the 3 series?

Did you not see the article where the 3 series was getting knocked because the S4 is a longer and wider?

How is the 3 series ruined? I mean if you want to go way back then the 3 series was ruined post 1990s....

[jtodd]

Originally Posted by Phaeron

Both F30 and the E90 have leather and in fact you can dd more leather then the E90... So try again.

As for assisted.. Both are Assisted and both due dick for communication unless you want to talk about road noise. There was already a war about steering wheel feedback that has proven without a doubt that most of you all have no idea what steering wheel communication is.

On a daily drive the steering wheel never tells you any information that you need to know regardless because you are not driving fast enough to get feedback from the steering wheel. So please tell me how the sporty you are driving when you do not in any way shape or form drive in a "spirited manner".

Umm, they both have leather, yes. Where's all the hard plastic?

The steering is obviously assisted (power steering) on both, however the issue that I and so many others were referring to is the fact the steering has switched from hydraulic to electric. There's nothing wrong with improvements to the vehicle dynamics, but some of the fun does feel left out. And our driving habits vary, some of us do drive in a manner that we would notice a difference.

The F30 looks so much nicer in some ways. It is the new 3 series and definitely not a let down overall, but there will always be "improvements" that we would have done differently.

[300hp]

Good now we are getting to the basics here. I am starting to see some people come to grips with the fact that these are just opinions and people getting off some phantom high horse that the E90 3 series was somehow out of this world. It's just a car whose relevance is waning and by this time next year will be all but forgotten.

The last part is a fact trust me on this. This is a case of hanging on to a piece of thread at this stage.

FYI I actually enjoyed some of these remarks, good weekend reading and I think Jason set up that way for weekend traffic. Nice

[elistan]

Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89

Comparing STIs and Evos to a 3 series is like comparing Nike Air Jordans and Cole Haan loafers. People do not tend to cross shop the two brands so yes STIs and Evos historically have handled better but you can probably say the same for a $25k Scion FR-S. Two different buying demographics so that argument is null.

FWIW, which might not be much, we most certainly did cross shop BMW, Subaru and Mitsubishi. Our desire was for a comfy and fun sedan. We did not go into the process with any preconceived notion about brand. The Lancer Raliart was actually one of the more fun cars we test-drove. Ultimately though, the gas mileage meant it would cost more than the BMW over the life of the car, and the BMW was fun on its own plus had superior luxury features. (With the goal of "comfy" we were only looking at auto/dct cars which ruled out the WRX so the Subaru we drove was a Legacy - which had a horribly soft, floaty, rolling, uncontrolled suspension. Ick.)

(BTW, I find it interesting you mention Nike Air Jordans and Cole Haan in terms of being diametrically opposites. That's because I own several Cole Haan shoes that are Nike Airs. The Air Grant Penny Loafer for example is one they current sell. So yeah, while Jordans and CH loafers are quite different shoes, they're more similar than you think. )