[squidlyboy]

I recently installed the BSW Stage-1 upgrades for my F30, and I’m looking for an amp upgrade now as the overall loudness has decreased with these less sensitive/efficient speakers. I was leaning towards a XD600/6 (75W per channel @4ohms RMS) but started reading about the JBL MS-8 DSP and had some questions...

Anyone running the ms-8 by itself (w/ built-in amp) to power all the speakers? The spec sheet says that it only puts out 18W per channel @4ohms RMS. Is that right? If so, that’s less than what the OEM amp puts out (25W @4ohms for each of the door speakers). Is the "cleaned up" output of the MS-8 enough to compensate for the lower RMS output to make the BSWs sound good (better than OEM amp)?

Or are most of you using it for the DSP functionality only, and running another amp in conjunction with it using the pre-amp outputs?

I have the 9-speaker HiFi stereo and I’ve heard conflicting things about the need to EQ it once the OEM amp is removed. I think I’ve read both (i.e. DSP is needed vs not needed). I heard that there is a single spike around 1khz-2khz in the OEM system, but wasn’t sure if that was for the HiFi stereo or the HK HiFi stereo. Does the HiFi stereo need a DSP for EQ to make the SQ more flat/balanced once the OEM amp is removed?

I also read a posting by Micah (co-owner of BSW) saying that any aftermarket amp driving the BSW Stage-1’s should not put out more than 50Wx4 RMS for the door speakers. I was wanting to put a 75Wx4 RMS (via XD600/6) but since BSW does not publish specs on its speakers, I’m hesitant to do that. Any issues with your BSW's handling 75Wx4 to them?

[Chris@codemybimmer]

I use an MS8.
same with another member named Vithy.

Yes the MS8 claims 18watt per channel but i can tell you it is definitely more than 18watts.

It can power my 10 inch sub just as loud as my 100 watt amp it replaced and it also can get loud to the point where the speakers distort where my build in amp could not.

the good thing about the MS8 is how it allows you to tune each individual speaker. limiting the low and high frequency so your speaker is always in its optimal frequency (if you know what that frequency is).

It does not De-EQ your sound. it takes your input EQ and allows you yo play with the output EQ so it sounds the way you should.

Also a cool feature is the headset it comes with tunes the sound according to your seating position so you always feel like your are "centered" to all your speakers instead of offset onto one side or another.

[squidlyboy]

Thats really interesting... ms-8's 18w to your sub performs LOUDER than your previous 100w amp?

How can something rated lower than the previous amp perform with more output? Something just doesn't add up .. So, to compare apples with apples, you mean that if you crank up the volume to the same position for both cases, the ms-8's would sound louder than your 100w amp? i find that hard to believe lol ...

In any case, I love that mic/headset concept ... just slap it on in the seat position you want to tune for, turn your head in 3 directions while it automatically takes like 20 sound measurements and then it just automatically adjusts everything for you in less than a minute. Dayum...

I assume if you use that feature, you don't really need to manually mess with the output EQ?

[Fronzdan]

The spec for MS-8 says 20 watts per channel @ 4 ohms. I wouldn't pay attention to the numbers. I've used mine solo with the OEM speakers and now the Bavsounds. It puts the OEM amp to shame. It is louder and much cleaner. The logic 7 is great. The staging is a huge improvement. I've been playing around with DTS-Audio CDs and enjoying the surround. I'm very happy with it. I picked it up used gently for half retail.

[squidlyboy]

Originally Posted by Fronzdan

The spec for MS-8 says 20 watts per channel @ 4 ohms. I wouldn't pay attention to the numbers.

Part of me wants to wholeheartedly agree with you about not paying attention to numbers, but in some regards, at least at the highest level, you have to sorta look at the numbers right? I mean, no one would say that going from a 4ohm load to a 2ohm load is insignificant right? i totally buy into that the ms-8 rocks and blows away the oem amp, but i'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that a 20w amp can be louder than a 100w amp. Doesn't seem like amp efficiency can explain away that large of a discrepancy. Something about that just eludes me :-)

Originally Posted by Fronzdan

... The logic 7 is great...

I'm sorry, i must have missed something... what is the logic 7? Isn't that the OEM HK amp? Or did you mis-type and mean that the OEM logic 7 amp sucks? I was asking about your ms-8. Or do you mean you are running the ms-8 as a dsp only - i.e. pre-amp to your logic7? But you said you were running the ms-8 solo...

Sorry.. its getting late for me - my brain is shutting down - i should prob be in bed right now

[Tomahawk]

MS8 was designed as a Logic7 processor, but doesnt have to be utilized that way. It is a significant improvement from the HK setup. The stock setup is trying to provide a more realistic soundstage for every seat position. MS8 allows you to choose seat position. I have not installed my MS8 in the 3er yet, but will be very soon. I loved it in my GTI.

And to correct the previous statement....it does "unEQ" your stock processing. That was one of the main functions. BUT, if you are installing into a previous HK car, you will have to have your radio recoded to HI-FI. If you have HiFi already than you are in luck (which i now see you do). This will change the output of HU to a flat signal, so no need to "unEQ". Also, it would be (in theory) putting 30 watts to mid/tweets since it would show a 2 ohm load.

I highly suggest to look through the massive MS8 thread on DIYMA, especially since you didn't realize it was a LOGIC7 processor.

[Tomahawk]

Originally Posted by 1lyfe

It can power my 10 inch sub just as loud as my 100 watt amp it replaced and it also can get loud to the point where the speakers distort where my build in amp could not.

.

It, most likely, sounds louder due to the distortion. My guess is it isn't actually louder. And it is distorting because the ms8 is clipping and pushing that sub to its max, not due to being overpowered.

[Fronzdan]

Originally Posted by squidlyboy

Part of me wants to wholeheartedly agree with you about not paying attention to numbers, but in some regards, at least at the highest level, you have to sorta look at the numbers right? I mean, no one would say that going from a 4ohm load to a 2ohm load is insignificant right? i totally buy into that the ms-8 rocks and blows away the oem amp, but i'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that a 20w amp can be louder than a 100w amp. Doesn't seem like amp efficiency can explain away that large of a discrepancy. Something about that just eludes me :-)

I'm sorry, i must have missed something... what is the logic 7? Isn't that the OEM HK amp? Or did you mis-type and mean that the OEM logic 7 amp sucks? I was asking about your ms-8. Or do you mean you are running the ms-8 as a dsp only - i.e. pre-amp to your logic7? But you said you were running the ms-8 solo...

Sorry.. its getting late for me - my brain is shutting down - i should prob be in bed right now

I wasn't the one that mentioned 100w amp. Without hearing it, I would say that that big a difference, you would be able to tell the difference in loudness. My comment about ignoring the numbers was in the comparison between 20w and the 25w of the OEM amp.

The MS-8 has a Logic 7 processor in it. JBL is owned by the same parent company as HK.

[joeyaoyp]

I am curious that Why every one recommend helix or jl amp? does they have anything special ? I had got the Rockford and I am not sure it will work good or not. I know the helix or jl got DSP but except for that anything different?

[Chris@codemybimmer]

Originally Posted by squidlyboy

Thats really interesting... ms-8's 18w to your sub performs LOUDER than your previous 100w amp?

How can something rated lower than the previous amp perform with more output? Something just doesn't add up .. So, to compare apples with apples, you mean that if you crank up the volume to the same position for both cases, the ms-8's would sound louder than your 100w amp? i find that hard to believe lol ...

In any case, I love that mic/headset concept ... just slap it on in the seat position you want to tune for, turn your head in 3 directions while it automatically takes like 20 sound measurements and then it just automatically adjusts everything for you in less than a minute. Dayum...

I assume if you use that feature, you don't really need to manually mess with the output EQ?

I guess i should really say "louder"

when i had my 100w amp it had a really crappy low pass filter that was preset and non adjustable.

with hte MS8 i was able to specify the low pass filtre frequency and after that the sub had a huge difference with (dont know how to describe this) punch??

ie. when your songs get get to the bass-y parts the bass feels like it hits your harder and cleaner than with my 100w just felt like it kind of faded into bass then faded back out.

[Tomahawk]

Originally Posted by 1lyfe

I guess i should really say "louder"

when i had my 100w amp it had a really crappy low pass filter that was preset and non adjustable.

with hte MS8 i was able to specify the low pass filtre frequency and after that the sub had a huge difference with (dont know how to describe this) punch??

ie. when your songs get get to the bass-y parts the bass feels like it hits your harder and cleaner than with my 100w just felt like it kind of faded into bass then faded back out.

It is quite impressive what proper EQ and crossover points can do. Power is nice, but without control it doesnt work. (wasnt trying to sound like a tire ad)

[Chris@codemybimmer]

OP if youre interested i can take a video of how the MS8 sounds in my car with a bass test song.
gives you an idea of how loud it can get.

[squidlyboy]

Originally Posted by 1lyfe

OP if youre interested i can take a video of how the MS8 sounds in my car with a bass test song.
gives you an idea of how loud it can get.

I would love to see that - thanks!

[joeyaoyp]

Originally Posted by squidlyboy

I would love to see that - thanks!

why you guys just choose helix or JL? any reason?

[squidlyboy]

Originally Posted by joeyaoyp

why you guys just choose helix or JL? any reason?

I haven't spent anytime on the diymobileaudio website yet, but apparently, those amps have risen to the top as the cream of the crop as far as amps go.

I need to head over there to do my due diligence as well, but i kinda got sucked into the mob mentality, and doing whatever else is doing is doing, because... well, they can't all be wrong

No, but seriously, these amps are not cheap, so if they didn't perform, there woulda been a lot of complaints by now lol. Either that, or folks are too prideful to admit that they just blew $500 on something that has just Ok performance, so they either keep quiet or tow the party line and keep singing the praises of how amazing these products are

Btw.. i just saw the huge MS-8 thread on DIYMA and not looking forward to plowing through 421 pages of postings

[Chris@codemybimmer]

Here's the videos. excuse my shaky hands....its cold today lol
Had to find some of my brothers songs as i dont like songs that are too bass-y

first link is decaf white clouds bass test
second link is some deadmous song

[Chris@codemybimmer]

Originally Posted by joeyaoyp

why you guys just choose helix or JL? any reason?

used MS8 goes for around 300 here.
JL is upwards of 800 used =(

[squidlyboy]

Originally Posted by 1lyfe

Here's the videos. excuse my shaky hands....its cold today lol
Had to find some of my brothers songs as i dont like songs that are too bass-y
first link is decaf white clouds bass test
second link is some deadmous song

Those are stock speakers other than the sub-woofers??? Dayum... they sound pretty freakin' good (as much as a recording from a phone through a YouTube video can convey anyways... i can only imagine how much better even it sounds in person) My HiFi w/ BSW S-1 doesn't come close to sounding like that!! Now i KNOW i need to toss my OEM amp lol

Was the subwoofer starting to distort with the volume turned up only halfway? That's surprising given the output being sent to them from the MS-8. What subwoofer is that? And do you have base HiFi or HK? I'm not an audio guy at all, but what causes that distortion? I read somewhere that too low of output to them can do that, but that doesn't sound intuitive. Seems like overdriving it makes more sense.

Thanks for doing that btw... The ms-8 is indeed impressive

[Chris@codemybimmer]

Originally Posted by squidlyboy

Those are stock speakers other than the sub-woofers??? Dayum... they sound pretty freakin' good (as much as a recording from a phone through a YouTube video can convey anyways... i can only imagine how much better even it sounds in person) My HiFi w/ BSW S-1 doesn't come close to sounding like that!! Now i KNOW i need to toss my OEM amp lol

Was the subwoofer starting to distort with the volume turned up only halfway? That's surprising given the output being sent to them from the MS-8. What subwoofer is that? And do you have base HiFi or HK? I'm not an audio guy at all, but what causes that distortion? I read somewhere that too low of output to them can do that, but that doesn't sound intuitive. Seems like overdriving it makes more sense.

Thanks for doing that btw... The ms-8 is indeed impressive

I have bone dry stock speakers.
Not Harmon kardon...not even HiFi.
I have what BMW calls "stereo"
4 speakers on each door and 2 underwear "sub's" that really act and another set of speakers. Their quality is terrible to be real "sub's"

All I have added is ms8 and 10 inch sub from Kicker. Even the sub itself is considered crap but I need my trunk space and this sub has a tiny foot print. (Kicker tc104)

Yea..sometimes even the dealership is surprised at how good the sound quality coming from my car is. Given its base audio setup.

Yea all the speakers distort when volume goes to halfway or higher but thatsvjust cause the speakers suck.
Even at about 1/4 of the max volume I find too loud for my standards. I don't blast my music.

I'm not sire what causes distortion either. Not an audiophile lol.
But I would assume its something along the lines of
The speakers can't "rebound?" (Return to its original position) before the next note is played or something lol

[vithy]

I have a similar setup as 1lyfe.

MS8 running 4 door speakers (OEM), 2 under seat subs (OEM), and 1 trunk sub (10" Pioneer)

As 1lyfe mentioned amp/MS8 upgrade makes a difference in the overall sound quality of the OEM speakers. Sound off the Amp is plenty for my taste. I almost never go over 1/3 volume.

I run the front door and under seat subs as two way.

My Settings on MS8
Front 2 doors high pass at 110
Front Sub low pass 65
Rear 2 doors high pass at 65
Trunk Sub low passed 65

I use speaker level input to de-EQ the sound from the head unit. OEM speakers are not bad, but not something I will be keeping. Upgrading as soon as the weather gets better. I will be replacing the 4 door speakers with coax or 2 way. Leave the OEM under seat sub. And also upgrading the trunk sub.

[Tomahawk]

Originally Posted by vithy

I have a similar setup as 1lyfe.

MS8 running 4 door speakers (OEM), 2 under seat subs (OEM), and 1 trunk sub (10" Pioneer)

As 1lyfe mentioned amp/MS8 upgrade makes a difference in the overall sound quality of the OEM speakers. Sound off the Amp is plenty for my taste. I almost never go over 1/3 volume.

I run the front door and under seat subs as two way.

My Settings on MS8
Front 2 doors high pass at 110
Front Sub low pass 65
Rear 2 doors high pass at 65
Trunk Sub low passed 65

.

How are you setting your xovers that way? That is impossible as MS8 does not allow under/overlapping. And why are your rear doors crossed at 65? And what slope are they set to? I would recommend running them much higher. In fact i would probably cross the at 200, as well as front, with the underseats taking over from there.

Now that i re-read your post, I think you meant to say underseats are HP at 65. I would still recommend running them up to 250, then letting doors take over.

[vithy]

You are right under seat HP @ 65. When I do set the doors at 200/250, my my front imaging completely gets messed up. I totally loose the Center Imaging. Specially because I don't have a center channel. I can hear the sound coming from sides. Not sure if that's how it should be, but i like the vocals come through center.

My coverage is

20 - 65 Trunk sub
65 - 110 my under seat
110 and over my doors.

My rear doors are also 110. I didn't mean to type 65.

I have tried multiple time and this seem to give me the best results so far.

If you have any recommendations I will try it.

Originally Posted by Tomahawk

How are you setting your xovers that way? That is impossible as MS8 does not allow under/overlapping. And why are your rear doors crossed at 65? And what slope are they set to? I would recommend running them much higher. In fact i would probably cross the at 200, as well as front, with the underseats taking over from there.

Now that i re-read your post, I think you meant to say underseats are HP at 65. I would still recommend running them up to 250, then letting doors take over.