[Blubaron79]

I will say there is a difference from my 335 to my 340 in handling. The 340 is so much more planted. I was skeptical until I drove it.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by FastF30

Still wouldn't ever ever never ever consider a honda civic no matter how much lip stick you put on it..... No way ... I'd be embarrassed.... so ha...

Part of the problem with me is the lip stick. The type r is a serious performer, and I'm sure it's great fun to drive, but the looks are a bit too over the top for me to consider it as my daily car. It's the same with the wrx sti with the huge rear wing. I've just reached the age where I'd feel ridiculous in it. I'd consider it if in the market for a weekend r&r car, but for a dd I need something more adult. Most bmw models feature some combination of sportiness, luxury, comfort, practicality, and timeless design. By timeless design, I mean that a 3 series I buy today won't look terribly outdated and awkward several years from now. Most of the top German/European marques do this well to varying degrees.

[F30_Adler]

This discussion is sickening! You guys are saying that your FWD Honda feels more planted and surefooted than a 335 and thus faster?!?! You guys have it all wrong! Seems to me like you guys don't know the true spirit of BMW. BMW leaves a little room for kicking out your tail out a bit on sharp, fast turns. Also the steering is supposed to be heavy to give your more feedback and road feel. If a 335i has some super light and dull electronic power steering like those Honda's you would kill yourself taking turns too fast. You also have to remember that the 335 is pushing at least 120 more HP and 130 more TQ than the puny Civic. So the Honda may feel nimble and manageable at slow speeds (that feel fast because your in a slow Honda) but during spirited driving or track conditions the BMW will murder the seemingly fast Civic. I mean shoot guys throw the SI in the mix and a 335/340i is murdering that too! Now the new Type R and NSX are real Honda Sports cars to compare to BMW.

[nickf30]

While I like my 335, it doesn't have the agility / responsive handling from my old R56 MCS / current F57 MCS. Yes the F30 is very capable car and balanced near at the limit, but it is so refined / planted for me it doesn't have that playful character at normal speed / less than arrest-me driving. I respect my F30 for its capability and my family love the refinement, as per Chris Harris in the 435i review it just feels/drives like an ordinary car most of the time:

[anotheran]

A 340i barely beating a e30 325i wagon:

Tho, it is a little unfair as the e30 has summers or slicks on. It really isn’t all about hp/tq.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Fuller

Most bmw models feature some combination of sportiness, luxury, comfort, practicality, and timeless design. By timeless design, I mean that a 3 series I buy today won't look terribly outdated and awkward several years from now. Most of the top German/European marques do this well to varying degrees.

You're spot on.
BMW is trying to be all things to all men, whilst competing in a global market, and ends up excelling at none of them - except for their M cars. As you say, the other German brands are all trying to achieve the same, and relatively speaking, I'd say BMW is still winning... but only just.
The Ultimate Driving Machine? No. A great all round package? Yes.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

For all you "ultimate driving machine" fans that have your knickers in a knot go back to post one.

The OP asked:

"Is there any reasons why a 2018 civic touring feels like it handles just as good than a msport 335i? Feels like I can take turn quite fast on a civic as the same for a 335i."

You might not like the answer or think the BMW is a better car but the fact is some of these little light weight cars can get around a turn very quickly.

Want to put your money where you keyboards are. Sign up for a local Auto-X usually under $50 & challenge any Miata, Civic or whatever to a show of time slips.

The 335is runs locally but is in a different slower class then the Miata's.

Finish position #5 1995 Mazda Miata
Finish position #44 2013 BMW 335is

This was the first full sized BMW 13 Miata's finished in front of it. Along with a number of Z4's first of which finished #25. Civic, Feista, Mini, GTI, Corolla also finished in front of it.

Now before you say yeah well the 335is sucked & the guy can't drive he finished 2nd in his class behind a Mustang GT & in front of a Camaro SS.

[uncleruckus]

Granted you are comparing the Civic Touring .... but the new Civic Type R is a very quick car (on the road and on the track). Just looking at the 'ring times.... it hits above its weight class very very well.

[chiefneil]

^^ Bear speaks the truth. Weight is always the enemy when it comes to handling. Note that I say “handling” and not performance, which is a term that includes speed IMHO.

I’m not sure why anyone would feel threatened that a Civic can handle just as well as a 335i m-sport through the twisties. That’s more of a bravo for Honda than a raspberry for BMW (although BMW does need to do better). Presumably you all bought a 3-series for reasons other than handling in the twisties. Otherwise you’d be driving a Civic Si or Focus/Fiesta ST (or whatever they call the amped up versions).

For my part, everytime I get a rental Focus or Fiesta I’m initially all excited because of the great reviews in Car and Driver. But then 5 minutes into the drive I’m all like “WTF”. No matter how great the handling in those cars I would never want to buy one for myself, because the overall package matters more to me than an autox time.

[anotheran]

Originally Posted by chiefneil

For my part, everytime I get a rental Focus or Fiesta I’m initially all excited because of the great reviews in Car and Driver. But then 5 minutes into the drive I’m all like “WTF”. No matter how great the handling in those cars I would never want to buy one for myself, because the overall package matters more to me than an autox time.

the f30 is practical, fast enough, need the backseats for the family, ok sized trunk, all wheel drive for novice drivers in the family, and ground clearance for snow and potholes. Otherwise I would’ve bought a Porsche 718 cayman. Much better driver’s car than the 340i and close in price when I was choosing a car.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by anotheran

the f30 is practical, need the backseats for the family, ok sized trunk, all wheel drive for novice drivers in the family, and ground clearance for snow and potholes. Otherwise I would’ve bought a Porsche 718 cayman. Much better driver’s car than the 340i and close in price when I was choosing a car.

Nah, Go 718 Boxster S you can put the roof down & enjoy a real sports car.

[Al Bundy's Dodge]

Originally Posted by anotheran

the f30 is practical, fast enough, need the backseats for the family, ok sized trunk, all wheel drive for novice drivers in the family, and ground clearance for snow and potholes. Otherwise I would’ve bought a Porsche 718 cayman. Much better driver’s car than the 340i and close in price when I was choosing a car.

This...from an all around perspective, I'll take the F30 any day. For me it wins in many more areas than loses when compared to the Civic, Fiesta, etc.

But I'd agree that it should be no surprise that, given the F30s bulk in comparison, that it loses out in the handling category. But that doesn't stop me from pushing it in corners...

[LMK5]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

You're spot on.
BMW is trying to be all things to all men, whilst competing in a global market, and ends up excelling at none of them - except for their M cars. As you say, the other German brands are all trying to achieve the same, and relatively speaking, I'd say BMW is still winning... but only just.
The Ultimate Driving Machine? No. A great all round package? Yes.

Yes, I'd say the 330i is a good all around package. The one standout feature of the car was the powertrain, yet, in 2017 they watered that down. The B46 just does not pull as hard as the N26, and it sounds more labored. Good job BMW!

The irony to me is that BMW has always been known, first and foremost, for its ride and handling, yet, I find that to be the weakest part of the car.

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by LMK5

Yes, I'd say the 330i is a good all around package. The one standout feature of the car was the powertrain, yet, in 2017 they watered that down. The B46 just does not pull as hard as the N26, and it sounds more labored. Good job BMW!

The irony to me is that BMW has always been known, first and foremost, for its ride and handling, yet, I find that to be the weakest part of the car.

B46 is supposed to be faster lol. I had a 330i as a loan car it wasn't bad

[bimmer456]

So I said earlier I could keep up with civics and Miata's in corners. Turns out I can go a little faster maybe even a lot faster but I didn't want to push it in sport plus. Long story short a couple of cars try to out turn me and I was able to go a little faster and of course on the straights no contest. If I had the base tires and rims maybe not so much. Just fyi

[LMK5]

Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Dodge

This...from an all around perspective, I'll take the F30 any day. For me it wins in many more areas than loses when compared to the Civic, Fiesta, etc.

But I'd agree that it should be no surprise that, given the F30s bulk in comparison, that it loses out in the handling category. But that doesn't stop me from pushing it in corners...

Is it really a weight issue? Isn't the M3 heavier? How does it handle vs. the 335i?

[jmg]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

For all you "ultimate driving machine" fans that have your knickers in a knot go back to post one.

The OP asked:

"Is there any reasons why a 2018 civic touring feels like it handles just as good than a msport 335i? Feels like I can take turn quite fast on a civic as the same for a 335i."

You might not like the answer or think the BMW is a better car but the fact is some of these little light weight cars can get around a turn very quickly.

Want to put your money where you keyboards are. Sign up for a local Auto-X usually under $50 & challenge any Miata, Civic or whatever to a show of time slips.

The 335is runs locally but is in a different slower class then the Miata's.

Finish position #5 1995 Mazda Miata
Finish position #44 2013 BMW 335is

This was the first full sized BMW 13 Miata's finished in front of it. Along with a number of Z4's first of which finished #25. Civic, Feista, Mini, GTI, Corolla also finished in front of it.

Now before you say yeah well the 335is sucked & the guy can't drive he finished 2nd in his class behind a Mustang GT & in front of a Camaro SS.

It's almost as if different cars have different strengths and weaknesses for different tasks!!!

Originally Posted by chiefneil

Focus or Fiesta I’m initially all excited because of the great reviews in Car and Driver. But then 5 minutes into the drive I’m all like “WTF”. No matter how great the handling in those cars I would never want to buy one for myself, because the overall package matters more to me than an autox time.

I've never driven a base Fiesta or Focus, but even a Fiesta ST is very fun to drive. They sound great, they handle like go carts and they are fun to toss around.

[uncleruckus]

Originally Posted by bimmer456

B46 is supposed to be faster lol. I had a 330i as a loan car it wasn't bad

I've heard/read that the N20 pulls harder than the new B46/48 engines. Surprised me, as I thought the new engine design would be more powerful. I do know that the new closed deck design is *supposed* to be able to handle more boost, so maybe the new engines are easier/better to tune ?

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by uncleruckus

I've heard/read that the N20 pulls harder than the new B46/48 engines. Surprised me, as I thought the new engine design would be more powerful. I do know that the new closed deck design is *supposed* to be able to handle more boost, so maybe the new engines are easier/better to tune ?

Yeah that would make sense. B58 JB4 also works with B48

[kern417]

On our track days one of the fastest drivers is in a B16 eg civic. he's neck and neck with an FBO 135i. It really should be no surprise that a lighter front wheel drive compact car can lap faster than a midsize sedan when power to weight is so far off, and the civic comes with a 215 front tire while our boats come with just 225s. The only time an f30 will be faster is with long sweeping turns and straights. But just for rotation, rwd can only compensate for so much.

[anotheran]

Originally Posted by bimmer456

Yeah that would make sense. B58 JB4 also works with B48

Dinan hasn't been able to get as much hp/tq from the B46/B48 compared to the N20/N26 engines and neither has BMS with their JB4:

http://www.burgertuning.com/images/dynos/230_dyno.jpg
http://www.burgertuning.com/images/dynos/n20_jb4.jpg

It's close tho.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Fuller

I generally enjoy the membership here, but one thing that's annoying after a while is all the whiny self loathing that goes on. In all fairness this seems to be present at other bmw themed forums as well. So many discussions here become about:
My car sucks
The f30 sucks
Even a civic, Camry, or fill in your car of choice, is better
I'm so getting an Audi when my lease is up
Let's talk about the Kia stinger
The f80 is fast but it's too perfect and lacks character
The alpha Romeo Gulia is the new 3 series (when it actually runs)
My brother's best friend's cousin traded his 335i for a c class and couldn't be happier
BMW has lost their way they're just pandering to the masses (gee really? a public for-profit company trying to sell more product? What is the world coming to!)

Boo hoo. You're stuck having to drive a bmw.

Also, for those claiming that the civic will smoke a 335i on a track due to weight advantage, go look into listed times on some popular tracks. A casual perusal revealed that this plain isn't true when comparing a stock civic si vs stock 335i or 335xi. The reality is that it's close, but the 335i beats it by at least around a second depending on the track. These are tracks that require good handling. That's not bad for the big, bloated, poor handling f30 335i vs a much lighter car.

LOL!
True enough about the complaining.

I can only speak for myself in that my comments and thoughts can be perceived as "complaining". However, to understand a person's basis for his/her comments one has to first understand where that person is coming from.

When I complain or make negative comments about BMW in general, or my 3 series, I intend it as a discussion, not at all like a real complaint like, I ordered medium rare with cheddar and I got well done with swiss.

I like to talk about cars in general, and here about BMW specifically.
I'm not a fan-boy and so I have no problem calling out BMW or stating what I am experiencing in my cars.

Someone recently thought and said that I must hate the 3 series. He based that on some comments I had made in discussions about the 3 series.
I had to explain that it's not at all possible that I could "hate" the 3 series when I had a 2012 335i Msport and then ordered and got a
2016 340i Msport.

Obviously I really like my BMW's. Are there things that BMW does and has done to the 3 series that I don't like?
You bet, and I am on record on this forum about those things.

Some people are new to BMW, some of us are not. That informs and creates varying perspectives, and all are valid as long as we are being genuine in our discussions and not just posting to be a-holes and fan-boys.

I am a car guy and I appreciate any automobile and manufacturer that makes a great car. Honda has made and makes some great cars. They just don't make many cars that I would actually want to own. The new Civic Si and R have clearly impressed a lot, most, professional enthusiasts.
Still, when I look at what Honda offers me I don't see the configuration I want, or the look I want or am wiling to accept, and other things.
That doesn't mean I think their cars suck. It only means they don't make a product that I am willing to pay for so that I can own it.

As for BMW, at this point, there is only one model they are making that I am willing to pay for for my next car. It's the M240i. But, there are things about it that don't thrill me. That's a different topic, and I've already taken up too much space.
That's typical for me though.