[CraigUK]

A brief post to canvas opinion and ask for advice with an issue my wife is experiencing at work. She's worked for the NHS for a number of years and throughout the recession as a result of cuts her department has been reduced significantly whilst commitments and new initiatives have grew.

Her direct managers have taken to bullying their staff in an attempt to meet their performance indicators. This typically takes the form of constant criticism, demeaning behaviour and threats when their reduced workforce fail to meet the requirements of the department.

Her section has an appalling record for stress induced time off work and illness which leads to staff being fired one by one just for their replacements to suffer the same fate.

In an ideal scenario just moving on to another job would be the best option. The main issue with this is inevitably it would be somewhere else in the NHS which has terrible reputation for bullying across the whole organisation. On top of that, living up north unfortunately means that there are limited opportunities elsewhere.

Advice most welcome.

[CraigUK]

This post should be in OT, if a moderator could move it that would be greatly appreciated.

[CraigUK]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Is she a member of a union?

She is however the union representative has already been involved during previous incidents of a similar nature within the department and proved to be of no use. Unfortunately the HR department also appear to be equally inept and uncaring.

Hope you are on the mend Lobb, read your other posts and hoping for a good swift outcome.

[330Stevie]

Until it's moved; bullying in workplace is completely unacceptable in any sector but in public health it's even more so.

Her trust should have a whistleblowing policy if it's that bad which should give protection. Or via union.

[Soul_Glo]

Evidence: save / keep e-mails, witness statements and, recordings.

Is it worth the mental burden? Has she considered leaving?

She could approach a different union.

Also worth contacting ACAS for advice: http://m.acas.org.uk

Trouble with whistle blowers is sometimes they get made an example out of depending how bad things are. I am a Senior CBT therapist for the NHS and Operations Lead. Our organisation promotes whistle blowing but in practice they don't want that. Too often it falls on deaf ears and in some cases it has made things worse.

I knew a social worker who whistle blew and she had to turn to the media to get her point across. She went off sick with work stress due to the bullying.

HR are usually on the side of the business.

[stefan4]

it's truly terrible that this goes on. I know when my wife has had a tough time at work I get really stressed as I hate seeing her struggle and there's not a lot I can do about it.

I can only think that the only real way your wife will find happiness is to get out of the NHS. This will obviously require re training but open university courses and college courses etc are available. I know it won't be an easy option but it would be difficult for your wife to change the culture of the department where she works or even the nhs as a whole. Maybe it would be worth moving to another department, it might be more bearable for the short term at least.

I'm sure as a trained professional, your wife will have some very good skills that could be transferred to a new career.

There are other jobs up north you know, I know its been difficult since the pits closed and all

[AndyEssex330d]

It pays to be selfish, your wife needs to put herself first and in all honesty, walk away. I'm sure she has the skills and desire to easily find another job, probably better paid etc.

I know it doesn't fix the problem, but in my experience looking after number 1 sometimes makes things a hell of a lot better.

I hope it all works out OP.

[6times7]

Originally Posted by Broken_Gearbox

Evidence: save / keep e-mails, witness statements and, recordings.

Is it worth the mental burden? Has she considered leaving?

She could approach a different union.

Also worth contacting ACAS for advice: http://m.acas.org.uk

Trouble with whistle blowers is sometimes they get made an example out of depending how bad things are. I am a Senior CBT therapist for the NHS and Operations Lead. Our organisation promotes whistle blowing but in practice they don't want that. Too often it falls on deaf ears and in some cases it has made things worse.

I knew a social worker who whistle blew and she had to turn to the media to get her point across. She went off sick with work stress due to the bullying.

HR are usually on the side of the business.

HR are always on the side of the business. I can't think of, and certainly haven't any experience of, a company that would open a department to look after the interests of the employee over the employer.

It's a common mistake of employees to think otherwise, and one usually made at a time they most need the help of someone to advise on their rights.

Having said that I also think that most HR staff try to be as accommodating as possible within their boundaries.

[Watsey]

It's not pleasant when pressure in the system manifests itself as a negative culture towards employees, especially towards those that are good at their jobs and are doing their best to help the organisation succeed.

In the absence of competent HR and union representation...

Contemporaneous notes can be valuable. A notebook and pen, kept easily to hand, would allow your wife to make notes (quotes) of exactly what has been said before the memory fades.

Most smartphones have a voice memo facility. If it gets legal a solicitor will welcome the material. Some people may argue that it's underhand, but if it gets nasty it's best to be prepared.

My advice would be for your wife to manage the situation rather than be dominated by it. Managers and organisations do tend to fuck up spectacularly when it comes to employment law. Your wife doesn't need to be a victim of others' incompetence.

[Hartside]

I wouldnt advocate recording anyone as I think legally you have to inform them if your doing that

The NHS will have a "Bullying and Harrassment Policy" that will outline what it sees as bullying and harrassment and how to escalate it if a person feels this is happening to them. I've dealt with a number of cases (private sector) and the procedure is to establish the evidence (or not) through interview with the person making the allegation and witness interviews. From there, analysis of findings takes place to establish if there is a case to answer. If there is, it must be dealt with appropriately up to and including dismissal for the perpatrator. On the other hand (and I'm not implying this is the case) if it's someone having a go, then they must be dealt with appropriately as well.

In our case all interviews are documented and signed by the interviewed personnel as a true reflection of the discussion and held in HR. In either case the decision must be fair and defensible as there is always the potential for it to go further. That said we're a very fair employer and tend to play by the rules. I cannot speak for the NHS but my starting point would be getting hold of this procedure and taking it from there if she so wishes

[Soul_Glo]

There is no law stating you cannot record a meeting with an employer.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/ellisjo...-their-consent

It's not like you are recording indecent images of a child or inappropriate conversation with a patient.

She may also want to consider supportive counselling or CBT for stress management if she wants to develop new or on existing coping strategies.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by Hartside

I wouldnt advocate recording anyone as I think legally you have to inform them if your doing that

The NHS will have a "Bullying and Harrassment Policy" that will outline what it sees as bullying and harrassment and how to escalate it if a person feels this is happening to them. I've dealt with a number of cases (private sector) and the procedure is to establish the evidence (or not) through interview with the person making the allegation and witness interviews. From there, analysis of findings takes place to establish if there is a case to answer. If there is, it must be dealt with appropriately up to and including dismissal for the perpatrator. On the other hand (and I'm not implying this is the case) if it's someone having a go, then they must be dealt with appropriately as well.

In our case all interviews are documented and signed by the interviewed personnel as a true reflection of the discussion and held in HR. In either case the decision must be fair and defensible as there is always the potential for it to go further. That said we're a very fair employer and tend to play by the rules. I cannot speak for the NHS but my starting point would be getting hold of this procedure and taking it from there if she so wishes

It's also not legal to bully staff.

Having a recording might be better than not having a recording. It might not ever be used, but might be something to keep in the back pocket.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

I wouldn't be put off by moving to another role in the NHS. Saying bullying is evident across the whole NHS is too sweeping a statement and cannot be accurate.

The other things are accurate, absolutely, expecting more from fewer people seems to be everywhere. My wife gets that now in the NHS. She is worked hard, too hard, in her team, but no one is bullied.

What does your wife do in the NHS.

[Hartside]

There is no law stating you cannot record a meeting with an employer.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/ellisjo...-their-consent

It's not like you are recording indecent images of a child or inappropriate conversation with a patient.

She may also want to consider supportive counselling or CBT for stress management if she wants to develop new or on existing coping strategies.


http://www.acitylawfirm.com/recorded-conversations/

Not clear cut by any means

[Hartside]

Originally Posted by Watsey

It's also not legal to bully staff.

.

I never said it was! My post is to help the OP escalate through the appropriate channels if they wished to

[Richard52]

Be realistic , the NHS is not going to change to accommodate your wife. She simply has to find another job. Whether she resigns prior to this and claims constructive dismissal is her prerogative . Even if she did ,and won ,the notion that the NHS would make structural changes is just fantasy.

Sorry if this is a bitter pill for you to swallow.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by Hartside

I never said it was! My post is to help the OP escalate through the appropriate channels if they wished to

I get that. Just adding a different approach.

[Soul_Glo]

There are plenty of legal loop holes to exploit when recording a conversation with an employer. Such as not realising a recording device had been left on in the bag. Say a secretary uses a dictaphone for audio notes. She's likely to carry it. Or a doctor records his notes. The most straightforward though... when there were no witnesses or they were unsupported as they too feared circumstances... or the employee didn't trust one of them as they brown tongue management... the recording would be admissible in court no doubt.

I also sat on a disciplinary panel... someone's phone genuinely dialled out as it was unlocked and on the other end were a few figures of authority. We evidenced the call with the time stamp and reception area security footage.

Finding a job with the same employer is difficult because the only way that tends to happen is when jobs are at threat. The NHS have a legal obligation to find you like for like work. Rarely is a redundancy offered unless a special role that cannot be matched and no skills can be transferred. Promotional opportunities vary according to organisation. Threat is sadly only defined as loss of funding or restructuring of the department.

One staff I knew had to move due to family circumstances. Her husband had racked up so many debts they lost their home and had to move in with his parents. She approached HR and the other department manager who agreed as it was the same job in the same Trust.

Here is another great source of advice but she is not available as a lawyer:

http://www.evilhrlady.org

This lady is not based in the UK but her site is very useful. From time to time she does offer the odd individual response:

http://www.askamanager.org

If they had more managers like me in the NHS then we'd have a great workforce. I went on the Elizabeth Garret Anderson Leadership Award program run by the NHS Academy as I had had enough with the poor and unprofessional leadership in my department. Within 6 months two bullies were fired. The Trust didn't want the "heat" because when something like this happens it dents their reputation. I have a zero tolerance on physical assault though (sexual and verbal too). I didn't care that we wouldn't have met our targets without those two. I hired one agency and put in voluntary hours and we smashed it.

One of my line managers called a member of staff stupid and an idiot. Staff came to me and we arranged her next line management with me sat in the room next door. So I put her manager on a warning which led to a formal warning and complete change in behaviour.

I love flexing my power for good. I have seen people who let it go to their head. Also been on the receiving end.

If it's that bad sometimes a cut and run is an option to look after ones own mental health. Depends on what support is on offer though. There is hope! Make sure you do nice things together to offset her stress. Tune in to it and if it's been a particularly bad day then do what you can as a husband to listen.

Listen deeply. Don't offer any correction or question. Don't interrupt. If you need to ask something then save it for later if you can. Make her a nice meal or take her to dinner. She'll need that support but the facf you are on here asking shows that you want to do whatever you can. That's good!

Pardon any typos dear grammar nazi's. Typed with one eye open back to sleep.. day off woooo hooo!

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Hartside

I wouldnt advocate recording anyone as I think legally you have to inform them if your doing that

The NHS will have a "Bullying and Harrassment Policy" that will outline what it sees as bullying and harrassment and how to escalate it if a person feels this is happening to them. I've dealt with a number of cases (private sector) and the procedure is to establish the evidence (or not) through interview with the person making the allegation and witness interviews. From there, analysis of findings takes place to establish if there is a case to answer. If there is, it must be dealt with appropriately up to and including dismissal for the perpatrator. On the other hand (and I'm not implying this is the case) if it's someone having a go, then they must be dealt with appropriately as well.

In our case all interviews are documented and signed by the interviewed personnel as a true reflection of the discussion and held in HR. In either case the decision must be fair and defensible as there is always the potential for it to go further. That said we're a very fair employer and tend to play by the rules. I cannot speak for the NHS but my starting point would be getting hold of this procedure and taking it from there if she so wishes

The law on recording is actually quite simple, as long as one side are aware it is occurring it is legal, I actually record a fair bit when dealing with various issues.

There is no place for bullying in the work place, when it is from persons above, it shows lack of management skills and should be reported.

However, there needs to be some common sense, I was previously reported for calling someone a fucking idiot after breaking a £10k bit of kit.

So roll on a year another person fucks up (not as bad but quite serious), so rather than get reported again, I start the proper chain starting, the result is they are dismissed, lose job and all the crap that goes with that.

My view is that I would prefer being able to call someone a fucking idiot and explain errors etc, rather than have them lose job and possibly house etc..

There is a fine line between bullying and being assertive and actually getting stuff done., however having a clear policy on reporting bullying is critical, there is no place for bullying it's wrong at all levels.

I also believe it is a responsibility of other managers to ensure they report bullying BUT it does need some common sense behind it.

Senior managers should also be available to hear concerns from staff (not sure how that would sit within the NHS).

[Ross_T_Boss]

Some great advice, I'm often reminded to stop trying to solve my wife's problems and just listen!

On the recording front, my brother used covert recordings as defence in a tribunal. There were some eyebrows raised but transcripts were accepted as evidence and had the desired effect of proving the utter fuck-wittery of the appalling management, and company as a whole (it wasn't for bullying though there was plenty of that after he kicked off, relocation forced his resignation, he won a redundancy pay-out but insists seeing the company management put in their place was worth it).

[320dAsh]

Your wife needs to find out what the grievance procedure is. Record everything (write it down or email it to herself). Then, email her grievance to HR. If they fail to stop the bullying, the next step would be legal action.

[insanecoder]

Originally Posted by CraigUK

A brief post to canvas opinion and ask for advice with an issue my wife is experiencing at work. She's worked for the NHS for a number of years and throughout the recession as a result of cuts her department has been reduced significantly whilst commitments and new initiatives have grew.

Her direct managers have taken to bullying their staff in an attempt to meet their performance indicators. This typically takes the form of constant criticism, demeaning behaviour and threats when their reduced workforce fail to meet the requirements of the department.

Her section has an appalling record for stress induced time off work and illness which leads to staff being fired one by one just for their replacements to suffer the same fate.

In an ideal scenario just moving on to another job would be the best option. The main issue with this is inevitably it would be somewhere else in the NHS which has terrible reputation for bullying across the whole organisation. On top of that, living up north unfortunately means that there are limited opportunities elsewhere.

Advice most welcome.

Just have her realize that its only a job and she can only do what she can.. let go.
She is already swapping the most precious thing in her life (her time) for a few pounds to make ends meet for you guys.. ya cant take that with you when the end comes. See the more precious things in life and just do what you can without stressing out.
On her deathbed, is she really going to have any thoughts of her job? concentrate on the important things in life.. over a hundred years ago people thought it demeaning to work for others and now people seem to think thats all there is..