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      09-20-2014, 02:56 PM   #67
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Pete,
Shame I don't have a more powerful engine.
We can fix that
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      09-20-2014, 03:24 PM   #68
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We can fix that
Ha, do you have Alpina D3 engines or something?
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      09-20-2014, 03:42 PM   #69
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Our 335d performance upgrade makes more than a D3.
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      09-20-2014, 03:55 PM   #70
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I'd need a 335d engine first though, and if I'm changing engines, it has to be an M550d engine
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      09-20-2014, 04:37 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Pete,

Crashy almost always comes from 'over-damped'. There is no excuse for that, it is just evidence of a poor setup. It is never the dampers function to control 'firmness'.

What I am feeling is the spring rate is significantly higher than standard, which gives the granular feel. As we know small imperfections don't input enough energy to move the spring much, so cause this granular spring vibration. However, my car is now significantly less crashy (because it is not over damped), it now feels more like a 5 series than a 3, despite being significantly sportier and controlled than a 5. Win Win Win.

Once I have NRFT on the front, I think I will have perfection, right now it is better than an M235i suspension....and very very close to an M3 set-up. Shame I don't have a more powerful engine.
Must say I'm fascinated with your experience. Then you throw in "it now feels more like a 5 series...".

Takes me back to my E91 days when I had to do something with the suspension, to get a car that handled and rode better than stock. I was coming from a different angle, I'd opted for the standard SE suspension as I couldn't live with the sport suspension and RFTs I tried in several demo cars. I tried non run-flats as a first move, (back then in 2006 we were in the days of "Brickstones") so no surprise the stock damping showed up as too soft. I sought advice from Koni and a development engineer at Tire Rack who had been involved in Tire Rack changing tyres and dampers and improving on stock. To cut the story short, firmer damping tied the car down, even on SE springs. As I expressed at the time "made it more 5-series like".

What is in contrast with your feedback, firmer damping on softer springs stopped the crashing and balanced the car. Much more planted and controlled. I had concluded, like Kevin Bird has often commented, the E9x models were too firmly sprung. He identified high spring rate as part of the problem in his E92 335i, which he developed the B3-3.5 suspension kit around.

BMW have had 'busy' secondary ride for years, due to high spring and damping rates. Clearly tuned for high speed and primary control has priority.

I can't make any comments on your stock setup, as I've not driven the sport suspension, but on the F30 standard suspension I did note a very strange reaction over speed bumps, as if the damping was virtually non existent, the rear would bounce in a very weird way. Did you have anything like that even on the M-sport suspension.

Seems BMW can't really please everyone with their recent setups, something is fundamentally wrong. RFTs clearly have compromised suspension calibration both for standard and M-sport setups of the past. But even with the latest RFTs, with less vertical stiffness, they are not yet back to how their cars used to run a few generations back.

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Last edited by HighlandPete; 09-20-2014 at 04:45 PM.
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      09-20-2014, 05:18 PM   #72
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I need to take a pic of the pathetic springs BMW use, they are definitely not of the high rate variety. I would say way too soft, which they have compensated for by over damping.

As you know, when hitting a bump, if the damper is not capable of moving fast enough (whilst a soft spring is not resisting the movement), you get a jarring thump. This is always the case with an overdamped set up. The spring should carry the load, the damper is there to control the speed of the spring, nothing more. Also, it controls the spring more on re-bound....that is why the damper should put significantly more work into the re-bound, not the bump.

If what you say is true, then BMW have switched problems from one extreme to the other.

To be quite frank, I don't know what market or conditions they think the F30 suspension is perfect for, but they need to sack the suspension department. Putting decent springs and dampers on has transformed this car. It is now a sporty driving machine, and less crashy at the same time. How many more 3 series would they sell if all the magazines drove a car like mine is now?

I don't buy the thought that they upset the ride to make room for M cars or bigger series. That makes no sense whatsoever.
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      09-20-2014, 06:40 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
To be quite frank, I don't know what market or conditions they think the F30 suspension is perfect for, but they need to sack the suspension department. Putting decent springs and dampers on has transformed this car. It is now a sporty driving machine, and less crashy at the same time. How many more 3 series would they sell if all the magazines drove a car like mine is now?

I don't buy the thought that they upset the ride to make room for M cars or bigger series. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Just to throw another factor into the discussion, for all my years with BMW, all models I've driven work better with a full load. Clearly load and speed are part of the design brief.

We often drive around 'one up' and forget the same chassis must perform to a decent level of handling at full load.

BTW, have you tested any examples with the Performance suspension upgrade, to see how that works in comparison with the standard M-sport suspension? There seems to be more comment in the US forum and many feel the upgrade gives them what they want.

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      09-20-2014, 07:07 PM   #74
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I wonder if there will be suspension revisions for the F3x LCI.
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      09-21-2014, 04:17 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by dopper99 View Post
I wonder if there will be suspension revisions for the F3x LCI.
I'm sure there will be tweaks to the suspension, but personally can't see big changes as many will see the suspension as being pitched pretty much where it should be.

Whether there will be an lowered M-sport suspension for the xDrive... I wouldn't hold your breath, as it is an all-season biased setup.

I still see BMW giving the M performance suspension as the option for the enthusiast. Most folks driving BMW won't be wanting to go back to E90 like calibration for day to day driving.

Remember a forum like this pretty much skews views and opinion.

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      09-21-2014, 08:10 AM   #76
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OMFG!!!!

I have just had a play with the settings.....I dialled all the dampers to level 10 (Max.)

All I can say is.....this F30 chassis is Stella......it just needs proper dampers and springs. On level 10, forget M3/4 think Ferrari CS type feel.....proper track car.....yet you could live with it on the road, still less crashy than stock. Amazing!!!!
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      09-21-2014, 02:57 PM   #77
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Worth the money then?

How do you adjust them anyway, do you have to take the wheels off and faff about underneath?
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      09-21-2014, 03:03 PM   #78
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Worth the money then?

How do you adjust them anyway, do you have to take the wheels off and faff about underneath?
YES YES YES

Nope, there is a dial on the bottom of the front dampers, and on the shaft of the rear ones. Just turn full lock and you can easily get to the fronts. Rears are a bit of a pain, as you have to lie down to see and adjust them. 2-3 minutes to do them all.

EDIT: Check out the pic on page 1.....Blue knurled adjusters with 1-10 on them.
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      09-21-2014, 03:17 PM   #79
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Sounds good. So ride height is still the same, but damper settings have only been adjusted?
But you don't normally get something for nothing so with the revised setting you've done to today, is the ride worse?

Sounds very good overall though. Good decision to get them.
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      09-21-2014, 03:19 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post

To be quite frank, I don't know what market or conditions they think the F30 suspension is perfect for, but they need to sack the suspension department. Putting decent springs and dampers on has transformed this car. It is now a sporty driving machine, and less crashy at the same time. How many more 3 series would they sell if all the magazines drove a car like mine is now?
You sound like an ACS salesman
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      09-21-2014, 03:20 PM   #81
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Glad to hear you are enjoying this set-up.

May I ask how much the kit was and what the total was including fitting?
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      09-21-2014, 04:10 PM   #82
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by teaston View Post
I absolutely understand why you did this, the handling is quite a let down after the E90, it's just too soft for sporty driving. I can't begin to imagine what a wallow fest the SE suspension is!?
To be fair didn't you have a 320d E90? This will naturally handle better and be more nimble.
Maybe the engine weight makes some of the difference, but i'm sure the fact that the E90 was lower and stiffer also plays a big part in it.
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      09-21-2014, 04:21 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dopper99 View Post
Sounds good. So ride height is still the same, but damper settings have only been adjusted?
But you don't normally get something for nothing so with the revised setting you've done to today, is the ride worse?

Sounds very good overall though. Good decision to get them.
Yes, ride height is a wheel off job to get to the adjuster rings. Damper firmness is a simple rotating wheel.

Worse? depends on the person driving the car Yes on level 10 it would be out of the comfort zone of many, but boy does the car feel alive. It is very jiggly on 10, not unpleasant....but not a smooth waft that F30AM would be happy with.....at a guess.

......ever driven a go kart? that is what 10 feels like.
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      09-21-2014, 04:25 PM   #84
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Glad to hear you are enjoying this set-up.

May I ask how much the kit was and what the total was including fitting?
Including fitting I think around 1900. That is BMW fitting at circa 500 with the new lock nuts required.

Worth it? Today was the very first time I went out in an F30 for a drive.....for no particular reason. I think that says it all.
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      09-22-2014, 02:59 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Including fitting I think around 1900. That is BMW fitting at circa 500 with the new lock nuts required.

Worth it? Today was the very first time I went out in an F30 for a drive.....for no particular reason. I think that says it all.
Excellent. Sounds like a worthwhile investment.

Enjoy!
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      09-22-2014, 03:49 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Including fitting I think around 1900. That is BMW fitting at circa 500 with the new lock nuts required.

Worth it? Today was the very first time I went out in an F30 for a drive.....for no particular reason. I think that says it all.
Much cheaper than chopping yours in for an M3.
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      09-22-2014, 04:10 AM   #87
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It's a shame BMW won't just admit that run flats are crap and get rid of them so they can go back to using decent suspension set ups!

It really is crazy to ruin a cars handling for the sake of something that happens so rarely! In 15 years of driving i've only ever had 2 total pressure loss punctures. I'd happily use tyre weld/slime twice every fifteen years to have all the advantages non run flats give!!
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      09-22-2014, 04:48 AM   #88
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It's a shame BMW won't just admit that run flats are crap and get rid of them so they can go back to using decent suspension set ups!

It really is crazy to ruin a cars handling for the sake of something that happens so rarely! In 15 years of driving i've only ever had 2 total pressure loss punctures. I'd happily use tyre weld/slime twice every fifteen years to have all the advantages non run flats give!!
Isn't it more an issue of who is BMW's main market, and what they want, rather than the smaller amount of enthusiasts. BMW do give the enthusiast options, so they do realise there is a small market for more sporty suspensions.

BMW were getting criticism even ahead of RFTs, so it is not just an issue of the tyres themselves. We have moved on with RFTs anyway, we are not where we were 10-years ago. There is a shift to softer suspensions across the board, as car users have been complaining of where has the ride comfort gone? Hence why so many manufacturers are offering semi active suspensions to try and widen the working envelope and cover more user needs.

Read the mainstream car reviews where often the criticism is, don't go for the low profile tyre option and/or delete the sport suspension.

BTW, when RFTs were first muted, it was documented that when questioning focus groups, the idea of a 'run-on-flat' tyre was one of the most requested features. Better control of high speed blow outs, the ability to get to a safe place, or home (women particularly) with a puncture, were high on the list of benefits.

BMW are persisting with them, on most bread and butter models. Even Mercedes have quietly introduced the MO 'extended range' tyre on some models.

I do wonder how many typical BMW users even consider they could have a better/different handling car, let alone on aftermarket suspension?

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