[Larry77]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Watch it again, that's not what it suggested. Here's another take on the same subject. Note who the author works for:
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/0...o-product.html

The only totally subjective testing that's valid, because it removes any possibility of cognitive bias, is double blind, where neither the person taking the test nor the person administering it is aware of what's being tested. As noted in the video a surprising percentage of people will honestly think they hear the difference between two systems even when it's actually not two systems, but in reality the same system.

You keep mentioning this but have you installed the Bavsound speakers and compared them to the stock H/K system?

The build of the speakers is very good when you physically handle them and look at the connections etc. They sound much more rich and have a depth to the tone similar to all of my SQ systems I've installed over the years. They do not fatigue the listener like the harshness of the stock H/K. It is pretty obvious that they could use more power and a cleaner audio source but they are a very good improvement over the stock speakers.

[Soul_Glo]

Originally Posted by Larry77

Right but that is not a direct replacement option for the H/K stock system.

I know but with a technic harness you can piggy back and it sounds even better. It is great as it is don't get me wrong. A fantastic idea and upgrade path but those speakers are capable of way more on an aftermarket amp.

[instalher]

all the midbass drivers mentioned are good midbass drivers. if you want adequate bass, add a dedicated sub and amp in the trunk,,, now to get decent extension out of a driver, you will have remove the plastic housing under the seat, remove the back seat heater vent, and fiberglass a new enclosure, at our shop we due this a lot and gives us great results, the boxes are around .25 ft sealed, and now most shallow 8s and some 6.5 work very very, well. so far the gb 6 has given us outstanding results, also the peerless 830946 is by far the best output to dollar value for this box period..

[Larry77]

I agree, the low end is really missing, even with the Bavsound Ghost subs. So far they have not given me more lower end like they claim. I DEFINITELY notice more output from the lower mid range and notice "tighter" response than stock.

I have been looking at MusicarNW's add a sub, or full bass upgrade, but it is very expensive. I'll probably go talk to them since they are local to me in PDX.

I didn't think adding an aftermarket amp to the full range speakers was as simple as just using the Technic harness though (adding a sub amp is). If it is that simple, why aren't people talking about it?

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by Larry77

You keep mentioning this but have you installed the Bavsound speakers and compared them to the stock H/K system?

Why, when there's no objective evidence available that it would be worth it? IMO there's only two reasons for there being no engineering data available. One is that the seller doesn't have it, the other it that they don't want you to see it.

[Larry77]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Why, when there's no objective evidence available that it would be worth it? IMO there's only two reasons for there being no engineering data available. One is that the seller doesn't have it, the other it that they don't want you to see it.

Probably because they know that most of the public doesn't care and do not understand the engineering data anyway. The public shops by reviews of other users, by ease of install, and by price.

Instead of assuming that the speakers aren't any better because you haven't seen the data sheets, I would encourage you to listen to them yourself. I think you would be pleasantly surprised and would feel that the price and ease of install makes them worth it.

[Larry77]

Originally Posted by instalher

all the midbass drivers mentioned are good midbass drivers. if you want adequate bass, add a dedicated sub and amp in the trunk,,, now to get decent extension out of a driver, you will have remove the plastic housing under the seat, remove the back seat heater vent, and fiberglass a new enclosure, at our shop we due this a lot and gives us great results, the boxes are around .25 ft sealed, and now most shallow 8s and some 6.5 work very very, well. so far the gb 6 has given us outstanding results, also the peerless 830946 is by far the best output to dollar value for this box period..

Great design but I'm wondering why you didn't use the corner of the trunk like MusicarNW, that gives you a lot more depth and you wouldn't be stuck with slim subs which I've always been disappointed by.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by Larry77

Instead of assuming that the speakers aren't any better because you haven't seen the data sheets, I would encourage you to listen to them yourself.

Send me some and I'll not only listen to them but also fully test them, and post the results. I won't even charge my standard consulting fee of $150 per hour.

I was bored today, so I pulled and tested my hi-fi woofers. They're not the least bit deficient, very well suited for the available space. Whoever it is who spec'd these knows what he's doing.
Fs 51 Hz
Qes 1.00
Qms 3.02
Qts 0.75
Vas 18.4L
Re 2.4 Ohms
Le 0.22 mH
Sd 200 sq cm
Sensitivity 86dB/w (1.5v)

I also tested them in the car, which gave a Qtc of 1.0. That extrapolates to a enclosure volume of 0.6 cu ft. Now anyone who knows how to use WinISD or Bass Box Pro or any of the other various speaker modeling software programs can see what the stock woofers are capable of. Don't forget to account for cabin gain.

[Larry77]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Send me some and I'll not only listen to them but also fully test them, and post the results. I won't even charge my standard consulting fee of $150 per hour.

So your stance is that these companies are creating speakers that are not superior to the stock speakers and are ripping all of us off by telling us a line of BS and our ears are hearing it because we want them to? You yourself do not have any actual objective data to prove your own point because you haven't even tested the aftermarket options yourself, interestin

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Larry77

I agree, the low end is really missing, even with the Bavsound Ghost subs. So far they have not given me more lower end like they claim. I DEFINITELY notice more output from the lower mid range and notice "tighter" response than stock.

I have been looking at MusicarNW's add a sub, or full bass upgrade, but it is very expensive. I'll probably go talk to them since they are local to me in PDX.

I didn't think adding an aftermarket amp to the full range speakers was as simple as just using the Technic harness though (adding a sub amp is). If it is that simple, why aren't people talking about it?

Originally Posted by Larry77

So your stance is that these companies are creating speakers that are not superior to the stock speakers and are ripping all of us off by telling us a line of BS and our ears are hearing it because we want them to? You yourself do not have any actual objective data to prove your own point because you haven't even tested the aftermarket options yourself, interesting.

I'm amazed that someone with your expertise and your apparent means does not buy all the different aftermarket options out there so you can inform us with your objective data that we are all getting swindled and the stock speakers are actually just as good (I don't make $150/hr and I'm a Hospital Administrator--very impressive). I'm betting that it would be one of the only times that stock speakers would ever have been proven to be better than aftermarket options.

I think you should buy your own damn speakers and test the hell out of them to prove your point, otherwise I'm done listening to your conjecture and your grandious techno talk.

I am simple shaking my head over all your comments in this thread.

In fact, I’ve seen Billfitz post a bunch of BS where he claims to have tested stuff but then when asked how he tested (knowing those of us could see through his BS, reverts to calling people trolls).

But in this case, I actually agree with him.

1) You claim to be a hospital administrator. I shudder to think what would happen if you did treatments, operations or distributed drugs not approved after tons of testing and FDA approval. There is a reason your hospital would give sugar pills to hypochondriacs.

2) The High tinny sound you describe could be at the new speakers cannot reproduce the top octave. Perhaps as your are HA, get your Audiologist to test your hearing and post pics of the results here to prove your hearing is not damaged on the high end.

3) Speaking of high end...as in speakers, Audiphile speakers prove that weight or construction has very little to do with the quality of sound.

4) why is it a forum members obligation to buy and test products and report findings to you? The manufacturer/seller should supply the data.

5) technic harnesses are discussed in many threads here. You didn’t search. Why are they not discussed more? People, like you, believe the cheap route will cure all.

6) you did a horrible job of research. Musicar does not have a SubWoofer that will fit in your AH3 because of the car’s batteries.

7) Even if you could put a Musicar Sunpb in your AH3, if you had read the threads you would have found that people that put those (or any subs) in their vehicles usually end up uninstalling the Ghost “sub” woofers as they end up fighting a real sub woofer.

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

I think a lot of folks just call them subs since it's easier and that's what Bavsound and others call them.

If I call myself a Doctor, will OP let me perform medical procedures in his Hospital?

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Surg_Capt_R

The bav sound are even better on an amp like fischer or bimmertech

Better amps make any speaker sound better, including thE OEM.

[Larry77]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

But in this case, I actually agree with him.

1) You claim to be a hospital administrator. I shudder to think what would happen if you did treatments, operations or distributed drugs not approved after tons of testing and FDA approval. There is a reason your hospital would give sugar pills to hypochondriacs.

2) The High tinny sound you describe could be at the new speakers cannot reproduce the top octave. Perhaps as your are HA, get your Audiologist to test your hearing and post pics of the results here to prove your hearing is not damaged on the high end, especially after all that headphone listening.

3) why is it a forum members obligation to buy and test products and report findings to you? The manufacturer/seller should supply the data.

4) technic harnesses are discussed in many threads here. You didn’t search. Why are they not discussed more? People, like you, believe the cheap route will cure all.

5) you did a horrible job of research. Musicar does not have a SubWoofer that will fit in your AH3 because of the car’s batteries.

6) Even if you could put a Musicar Sunpb in your AH3, if you had read the threads you would have found that people that put those (or any subs) in their vehicles usually end up uninstalling the Ghost “sub” woofers as they end up fighting a real sub woofer.



If I call myself a Doctor, will OP let me perform medical procedures in his Hospital?

#1) I have no idea how what you are saying here compares to what we are talking about, I went by reviews, not technical data and I certainly wouldn't compare buying speakers to any medical procedure which is regulated heavily--thankfully.

#2) I was referring to the stock H/K speakers, not any "new speakers", I've heard a lot of quality systems that do not produce the fatiguing highs and empty mids that the H/K system gives us. When I built systems I always went for good quality "warm" sounding mids and highs. (ie Hybrid Audio)

#3) I'm not asking him to test for me, I admiringly got a little frustrated by him asking me to send him speakers while he bragged about his wage and continuing to provide conjecture for his argument having not tested anything to compare to his stock speakers he tested.

#4) I did read up on the Technic harness but I came away with maybe a misunderstanding that due to the wiring of the stock speakers you couldn't just direct swap an aftermarket amp to the door speakers etc with just the adaptor?

#5) There was nothing saying that my Hybrid wouldn't work with their system, but now that you say that it does make sense since I don't have the space under the trunk that the non-hybrid version have--damn. I had emailed them to set up an appointment to go talk to them since they are local, I'll see what they have for ideas.

#6) I'm happy to get rid of the Ghost subs if they are not good for the sound of my system, maybe I'll send them to other member for testing :-)

Thanks for the info...

[Larry77]

You added one, I do understand that the quality of the sound of a speaker is not always about the construction of the speaker but it is usually a pretty good indicator of crap speakers when it's lacking.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by Larry77

So your stance is that these companies are creating speakers that are not superior to the stock speakers and are ripping all of us off by telling us a line of BS and our ears are hearing it because we want them to?

I'm saying that's just as much a possibility as that they might be better than stock.

You yourself do not have any actual objective data to prove your own point because you haven't even tested the aftermarket options yourself

I do have data on the OEM drivers that shows they're high quality. Knowing that why would I spend money on something that may not be any better? Could aftermarkets be better? Sure. But before I spend my money on them show me the proof.

I'm amazed that someone with your expertise and your apparent means does not buy all the different aftermarket options out there

Someone with my expertise and professional credentials doesn't buy anything, he gets it supplied to him for reviewing by manufacturers. You might as well suggest that Car and Driver and all the other auto reviewing sources go out and buy all the cars they test.

so you can inform us with your objective data that we are all getting swindled and the stock speakers are actually just as good

If that's what the data revealed then so be it. If the data revealed that the claims made for aftermarket speakers were true then so be it. I don't have a dog in the fight, so it makes no difference to me one way or another.

I'm a Hospital Administrator

Then you should know very well why you don't authorize, let alone endorse, the purchase or use of drugs or implements on the word of salesmen. They must be thoroughly tested and proven to do what's claimed for them. You should also be fully aware of what placebo effect is.

It took some searching, but I finally found a direct replacement woofer that provides specs, the Rockford-Fosgate T3. This compares it to the stock BMW driver in half-space (the standard for loudspeaker measurements) in the same BMW enclosure with the same input voltage. The BMW driver is louder and goes lower. If you were considering buying a pair of the T3 I just saved you $600.

[Larry77]

I'll give the Ghost Subs a little more time to see if they go deeper but so far I've only noticed more mid bass in what seemed like, at least to my ears, a frequency that was missing.

After some more time I'll try switching back to the stock underseats to see if I like them better now that I have the Bavsound Stage 1's installed.

I'm also going to go talk to MusicarNW to see what options they can come up with for me since I won't be able to directly install their "add a sub" system.

I have 100 days to get my money back with Bavsound so I've got some time and won't be losing anything if I change my mind.

I also asked Bavsound to send me a data sheet so we'll see if they do...

I apologize for getting frustrated with the back and forth...

[Larry77]

Originally Posted by Surg_Capt_R

I know but with a technic harness you can piggy back and it sounds even better. It is great as it is don't get me wrong. A fantastic idea and upgrade path but those speakers are capable of way more on an aftermarket amp.

From Technic:

"I do not support any HK upgrades other than adding a sub/up-powering the underseat woofers. Any other upgrade is much more complex than just adding another amp to the speakers because of the DIRAC processing/built-in EQ curve.

The woofer outputs processing is manageable without the need of any external DSP."

[instalher]

Originally Posted by Larry77

Great design but I'm wondering why you didn't use the corner of the trunk like MusicarNW, that gives you a lot more depth and you wouldn't be stuck with slim subs which I've always been disappointed by.

I have a 10 inch dvc sub in the back of the fish bowl car is a f30 its a shallow Dayton audio no usable space was used as we hall a lot of big stuff in this car.. also the ms-8 , fosgate pbr 300.4 and hertz hcp5d are behind the driver side trunk beauty panel.

[Soul_Glo]

Originally Posted by Larry77

From Technic:

"I do not support any HK upgrades other than adding a sub/up-powering the underseat woofers. Any other upgrade is much more complex than just adding another amp to the speakers because of the DIRAC processing/built-in EQ curve.

The woofer outputs processing is manageable without the need of any external DSP."

Fountain of knowledge. I added a sub to my HK.

[Larry77]

Originally Posted by instalher

I have a 10 inch dvc sub in the back of the fish bowl car is a f30 its a shallow Dayton audio no usable space was used as we hall a lot of big stuff in this car.. also the ms-8 , fosgate pbr 300.4 and hertz hcp5d are behind the driver side trunk beauty panel.

So maybe I can mount the amp etc for my "add a sub" behind the driver side trunk panel instead of under the trunk like non-hybrid's, thanks!

[instalher]

it all fits..... lots of room. love the complete stealth look,

[Larry77]

Originally Posted by Surg_Capt_R

Fountain of knowledge. I added a sub to my HK.

Did you have any headlight dimming? I'm curious how much room is in the f30 electrical system...

I've had some cars dim with even small draws while others could handle multiple amps...

[Soul_Glo]

Originally Posted by Larry77

Did you have any headlight dimming? I'm curious how much room is in the f30 electrical system...

I've had some cars dim with even small draws while others could handle multiple amps...

None whatsoever. I drive daily on some long drives so the battery is well charged. On my E92 the interior lights would flicker if played loud but the F3X has a better system I find.