[fecurtis]

Hi guys, I've been lurking this forum for the past several days and the information I've been able to gather here has been tremendously helpful so thanks for that.

I've been test driving an S4 and 335i. I'm supposed to look at a IS350 F-Sport and an ATS 3.6 before making a final decision but I doubt those cars will do much to sway my decision towards the 335i.

So I live in the DC Metro Area (Arlington, VA) and I'm dealing with Silver Spring BMW in southern MD. The CA so far has been extraordinarily helpful, knowledgeable, and has not pressured me at all in the process. I was led to Silver Spring BMW by a friend of mine who has purchased a 2013 550i M-Sport last year and had great things to say about them.

I'd have to order my F30 since I don't care for AWD (can't justify the price premium since I metro to work, so RWD with snow tires in the winter will be just fine) and this being the DC metro area, all they have on the lot are xDrives.

My plan is to offer $250 above invoice. Absolute max I'd entertain would be $750 above invoice before any incentives. I plan on leasing it and paying all of the fees up front (acquisition fee, DMV fees, etc. etc.). My Experian credit score...as of Friday is 710 with a debt to income ratio of about 24% (mostly from rent), I estimated a monthly payment of about $780/month based on a .60 residual and a 3.9% money factor for 36 months/12,000 miles (this is all in, including the 6% MD sales tax which doesn't have to be paid up front, MSRP of the 335i I want is about $59k). That'd put my payment to income ratio at around 15%-16%.

I own a 2007 Infiniti G35S sedan which I bought brand new back in 2007 and paid that off after 6 years, no late payments so I have history of making payments on a car. It's been a fantastic car over the years (almost 90,000 miles on her and I've had absolutely 0 issues with the car since the day I drove it off the lot with 12 miles on the odometer), but it's time for something new and I really love the F30 3-Series.

I'm assuming given all of that, I should have no issue with getting a lease approved by BMWFS with an approximate 3.9% APR and .60 residual seems to be a reasonable assumption based on what others on here have gotten.

So my question is that do my calculations make sense? I read about MSD's and their reduction on the money factor but it seems like the opportunity cost of that is pretty high, I could (and have) get higher returns elsewhere (thanks Google and Tesla shares!).

-Is it reasonable to be aiming at a $250 above invoice agreed upon sales price?
-Is it worth it to do the BMW Performance Driving Center delivery? The general consensus on this board appears to be "yes".
-If I do the PDC delivery, I'd want to purchase additional miles to compensate for the mileage I'd have to drive from Spartanburg, SC back up to Arlington, VA. Is this possible during the negotiation process? If so, what is the cost per mile? I assumed .16/mile, the additional miles would be paid for upfront.
-What is the general deposit required to get the order put into BMW? I had assumed $1,000 should be sufficient. I don't really feel comfortable depositing much more than that for a car I haven't yet seen in person. I'd like to ensure the car is built to my specification before paying any additional money.
-I assume the deposit is refundable, and that upon taking delivery of the vehicle, I can use that $1,000 towards items like fees and security deposit. Is this correct?
-Last question, has anyone else worked with BMW of Silver Spring? If so, what was your experience like? Since I like the CA I'm working with, I hope to get a mutually beneficial deal done there, but if the numbers seem off, I'm obviously willing to walk.

Thanks in advance guys.

[shivaswrath]

I doubt miles are refundable/compensated if you do a SC delivery - you can ask them to ship it back up, but usually the idea of a delivery like that is you drive it from there.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

I doubt miles are refundable/compensated if you do a SC delivery - you can ask them to ship it back up, but usually the idea of a delivery like that is you drive it from there.

Oh no, I think you misunderstood what I was saying (or maybe I did a poor job of conveying my question).

So the standard lease I'm looking at is 36 months/12,000 miles so a total of 36k miles over 36 months. I'd like to buy an additional 750 miles or so up front to make the total miles over the life of the lease 36,750 vs just 36,000. Just curious as to whether or not I can do that and if so, how much it'd cost and whether that'd affect the residual value.

[sam1983]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

-Is it reasonable to be aiming at a $250 above invoice agreed upon sales price?
-Is it worth it to do the BMW Performance Driving Center delivery? The general consensus on this board appears to be "yes".
-If I do the PDC delivery, I'd want to purchase additional miles to compensate for the mileage I'd have to drive from Spartanburg, SC back up to Arlington, VA. Is this possible during the negotiation process? If so, what is the cost per mile? I assumed .16/mile, the additional miles would be paid for upfront.
-What is the general deposit required to get the order put into BMW? I had assumed $1,000 should be sufficient. I don't really feel comfortable depositing much more than that for a car I haven't yet seen in person. I'd like to ensure the car is built to my specification before paying any additional money.
-I assume the deposit is refundable, and that upon taking delivery of the vehicle, I can use that $1,000 towards items like fees and security deposit. Is this correct?
-Last question, has anyone else worked with BMW of Silver Spring? If so, what was your experience like? Since I like the CA I'm working with, I hope to get a mutually beneficial deal done there, but if the numbers seem off, I'm obviously willing to walk.

Thanks in advance guys.

(1) On a 335, I'd even aim at settling on a deal below invoice. I've heard some folks on these forums get a deal below invoice
(2) From what I've heard, it's absolutely worth doing PCD. I'm scheduled to do mine on Feb 7
(3) Yes additional miles are about 0.16c/mile and you can pay it upfront or later in the lease. Ask your CA for more details
(4) $1000 is the deposit and you can use that towards reducing your final drive home payment

btw - your interest rate should be below 3.9%. With MFs around 0.00130 in Jan and with your credit score, your effective interest rate should be 3.12%.

Good luck!

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by sam1983

(1) On a 335, I'd even aim at settling on a deal below invoice. I've heard some folks on these forums get a deal below invoice
(2) From what I've heard, it's absolutely worth doing PCD. I'm scheduled to do mine on Feb 7
(3) Yes additional miles are about 0.16c/mile and you can pay it upfront or later in the lease. Ask your CA for more details
(4) $1000 is the deposit and you can use that towards reducing your final drive home payment

btw - your interest rate should be below 3.9%. With MFs around 0.00130 in Jan and with your credit score, your effective interest rate should be 3.12%.

Good luck!

Perfect, thanks so much!

I know I got my Infiniti below invoice but had to start a bidding war between dealerships. I'll have my initial offer below invoice (maybe $250 below invoice) to see what they say.

[dc503]

I'd hold off on buying the miles until the very last minute for the discounted rate (which is well into the 3rd year of your term), you might not even need to purchase them. Just a suggestion...

Also, in this area a few hundred over invoice is pretty reasonable.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by dc503

I'd hold off on buying the miles until the very last minute for the discounted rate (which is well into the 3rd year of your term), you might not even need to purchase them. Just a suggestion...

Also, in this area a few hundred over invoice is pretty reasonable.

Ah ok, so long as the discounted rate is valid until late in the life of the lease, I'll hold out.

I figured it was something that you had to do up front. Thanks for the tip!

[dc503]

No problem, I can't remember the exact cutoff but it occurs rather late in the contract. Just make sure you get it highlighted in your documents so you know exactly.

[fecurtis]

I shot my CA an email itemizing what I was willing to pay (basically estimated invoice from edmunds.com) and naturally I got a phone call about 15 minutes later from him to discuss.

He agreed to me paying invoice plus all applicable fees (which I included in my initial email, itemized and they included acquisition of $725, MACO + Training of $430, and destination of $925. They insisted I pay a "documentation fee" of $199. I resisted but he claimed he couldn't remove it, so I view it as I'm really paying invoice plus $199 less applicable incentives and rebates ($1,250 in total) so I'm getting it for about $1,050 below invoice. Can't really get mad about that, not gonna walk over what is essentially the cost of an iPhone.

I go in Saturday to go over the paperwork and build the order. I'll review the itemized invoice with much scrutiny before signing on the dotted line and make sure the RV and money factor are reasonable before doing so.

The good news is that I over estimated sales and use tax. I forgot that I'm not a Maryland resident so I just pay the Virginia rate even though I'm buying the car in Maryland (4% vs. 6% on the FULL negotiated price of the car, not just the lease payment like in some states so that's a hefty price savings there).

Either way, we'll see how things work on Saturday. I work in corporate finance by profession so I'll come armed with print outs of spreadsheets...it's only natural.

If all goes well, I'll be new to the BMW world as this car would be my first one. In case anyone is curious, here is what I'm looking at getting:

2014 BMW 335i RWD
M-Sport Package
Premium Package
Technology Package
Cold Weather Package
Driver Assistance Package
Dynamic Handling Package
Estoril Blue Exterior
Venetian Beige Dakota Leather
403M 19" Wheels w/ Summer Tires
Dark Burl Walnut Trim
HK Premium Sound
Sport Transmission

PDC Delivery

If Saturday does go as hoped, then comes the worst part...the wait!

[dc503]

Looks good...the wait is the absolute worst part.

[AgentCircus]

I got $500 below invoice on mine, before incentives. At least get them to do $200 below invoice to cover that doc fee.
The training fee is only $180. MACO is $400. Don't pay more than .00130 for your MF, your credit score is fine. An approval is an approval - don't let them try to add points to the MF. Your residual is pre-set by BMW 57% for 15k (add 2% for 12k, add 3% for 10k).

And one more thing, DON'T FILL OUT A CREDIT APP until the final disclosure is complete (all pricing agreed upon, etc.). Just in case you have to shop a different dealer, you don't want all those inquiries.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by AgentCircus

I got $500 below invoice on mine, before incentives. At least get them to do $200 below invoice to cover that doc fee.
The training fee is only $180. MACO is $400. Don't pay more than .00130 for your MF, your credit score is fine. An approval is an approval - don't let them try to add points to the MF. Your residual is pre-set by BMW 57% for 15k (add 2% for 12k, add 3% for 10k).

And one more thing, DON'T FILL OUT A CREDIT APP until the final disclosure is complete (all pricing agreed upon, etc.). Just in case you have to shop a different dealer, you don't want all those inquiries.

Good advice all around, particularly the change in residual given the mileage, I was curious as to what that'd be.

They're calling for light snow showers on Saturday so hopefully it doesn't get any worse than that so I can make it out there. Just want to get it over with, get an agreeable deal, and place the order!

The good news is based upon the configuration I want (I'm leaning towards getting the M Performance Pack as well), I made a minor miscalc. Based on your money factor amount, the interest is about 1/2 percent lower than what I had assumed it'd be and I forgot that just because I order the car in MD, that I wouldn't have to pay the MD sales tax since I live in VA. VA sales tax is 4% vs. 6%. Revising my calc to assume a .59 residual instead of a .60 obviously increases the payment a bit, but the other factors bring it down to about $760/month.

I'll also have to remember to ask about how the M Performance Pack affects the residual. In theory it should have a positive impact on residual since they're BMW parts and would be installed at the port. If not, then no point in really getting them.

[Professor///M]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Hi guys, I've been lurking this forum for the past several days and the information I've been able to gather here has been tremendously helpful so thanks for that.

I've been test driving an S4 and 335i. I'm supposed to look at a IS350 F-Sport and an ATS 3.6 before making a final decision but I doubt those cars will do much to sway my decision towards the 335i.

So I live in the DC Metro Area (Arlington, VA) and I'm dealing with Silver Spring BMW in southern MD. The CA so far has been extraordinarily helpful, knowledgeable, and has not pressured me at all in the process. I was led to Silver Spring BMW by a friend of mine who has purchased a 2013 550i M-Sport last year and had great things to say about them.

I'd have to order my F30 since I don't care for AWD (can't justify the price premium since I metro to work, so RWD with snow tires in the winter will be just fine) and this being the DC metro area, all they have on the lot are xDrives.

My plan is to offer $250 above invoice. Absolute max I'd entertain would be $750 above invoice before any incentives. I plan on leasing it and paying all of the fees up front (acquisition fee, DMV fees, etc. etc.). My Experian credit score...as of Friday is 710 with a debt to income ratio of about 24% (mostly from rent), I estimated a monthly payment of about $780/month based on a .60 residual and a 3.9% money factor for 36 months/12,000 miles (this is all in, including the 6% MD sales tax which doesn't have to be paid up front, MSRP of the 335i I want is about $59k). That'd put my payment to income ratio at around 15%-16%.

I own a 2007 Infiniti G35S sedan which I bought brand new back in 2007 and paid that off after 6 years, no late payments so I have history of making payments on a car. It's been a fantastic car over the years (almost 90,000 miles on her and I've had absolutely 0 issues with the car since the day I drove it off the lot with 12 miles on the odometer), but it's time for something new and I really love the F30 3-Series.

I'm assuming given all of that, I should have no issue with getting a lease approved by BMWFS with an approximate 3.9% APR and .60 residual seems to be a reasonable assumption based on what others on here have gotten.

So my question is that do my calculations make sense? I read about MSD's and their reduction on the money factor but it seems like the opportunity cost of that is pretty high, I could (and have) get higher returns elsewhere (thanks Google and Tesla shares!).

-Is it reasonable to be aiming at a $250 above invoice agreed upon sales price?
-Is it worth it to do the BMW Performance Driving Center delivery? The general consensus on this board appears to be "yes".
-If I do the PDC delivery, I'd want to purchase additional miles to compensate for the mileage I'd have to drive from Spartanburg, SC back up to Arlington, VA. Is this possible during the negotiation process? If so, what is the cost per mile? I assumed .16/mile, the additional miles would be paid for upfront.
-What is the general deposit required to get the order put into BMW? I had assumed $1,000 should be sufficient. I don't really feel comfortable depositing much more than that for a car I haven't yet seen in person. I'd like to ensure the car is built to my specification before paying any additional money.
-I assume the deposit is refundable, and that upon taking delivery of the vehicle, I can use that $1,000 towards items like fees and security deposit. Is this correct?
-Last question, has anyone else worked with BMW of Silver Spring? If so, what was your experience like? Since I like the CA I'm working with, I hope to get a mutually beneficial deal done there, but if the numbers seem off, I'm obviously willing to walk.

Thanks in advance guys.

Why don't you do a BMW select/smart buy. You'll have lease payments and you won't have to worry about mileage. Not as good financially as a traditional finance, better than a lease.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by PAMidge

Why don't you do a BMW select/smart buy. You'll have lease payments and you won't have to worry about mileage. Not as good financially as a traditional finance, better than a lease.

Not really interested in owning the car once the warranty expires. I don't drive much and after 3 years, if I were to be attached to the car...or if the car is worth a lot more than what BMW anticipated, then I'd consider just buying the car out after that. Mileage isn't really a "factor" since I average around 10,000 miles/year (if that, I don't even drive to work, living and working in the metro DC area, it doesn't matter how fun a car is to drive, you'll be having no fun in rush hour traffic around here), just curious as to what the process was in buying more miles should the need ever arise.

Wouldn't mind jumping into an M3 once the lease ends though. Hell as configured the car costs almost as much as one...

[JasonX4MComp]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Not really interested in owning the car once the warranty expires. I don't drive much and after 3 years, if I were to be attached to the car...or if the car is worth a lot more than what BMW anticipated, then I'd consider just buying the car out after that. Mileage isn't really a "factor" since I average around 10,000 miles/year (if that, I don't even drive to work, living and working in the metro DC area, it doesn't matter how fun a car is to drive, you'll be having no fun in rush hour traffic around here), just curious as to what the process was in buying more miles should the need ever arise.

Wouldn't mind jumping into an M3 once the lease ends though. Hell as configured the car costs almost as much as one...

If you are going to need extra miles, you can buy them up to 6 months before the lease ends at $.16/mile. That's what I would recommend instead of buying them up front at $.15/mile and not knowing if you will need them or not.

[AgentCircus]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Good advice all around, particularly the change in residual given the mileage, I was curious as to what that'd be.

They're calling for light snow showers on Saturday so hopefully it doesn't get any worse than that so I can make it out there. Just want to get it over with, get an agreeable deal, and place the order!

The good news is based upon the configuration I want (I'm leaning towards getting the M Performance Pack as well), I made a minor miscalc. Based on your money factor amount, the interest is about 1/2 percent lower than what I had assumed it'd be and I forgot that just because I order the car in MD, that I wouldn't have to pay the MD sales tax since I live in VA. VA sales tax is 4% vs. 6%. Revising my calc to assume a .59 residual instead of a .60 obviously increases the payment a bit, but the other factors bring it down to about $760/month.

I'll also have to remember to ask about how the M Performance Pack affects the residual. In theory it should have a positive impact on residual since they're BMW parts and would be installed at the port. If not, then no point in really getting them.

That sounds high! Are you rolling over any negative equity? After all your options, what's the MSRP? And what's the agreed up on value of the vehicle (invoice minus incentives)? Input those numbers on http://www.leaseguide.com/calc.htm and see what you come up with.

Just to give an example: A 335i w/ an MSRP of $60,000 and a negotiated price of $55,325 (~Invoice less incentives, plus acquisition fee) comes out $681.75 after 4% tax. That's using a 60% residual and MF of .00130. Due at signing would obviously be your first payment plus government fees, etc.

I here you about getting it over with! I finally took delivery of my 335i M Sport yesterday after weeks of negotiations w/ 5 different dealerships. It'll definitely be worth the wait. This thing is a beast! Can't wait until the break-in period is over.

[AgentCircus]

Originally Posted by PAMidge

Why don't you do a BMW select/smart buy. You'll have lease payments and you won't have to worry about mileage. Not as good financially as a traditional finance, better than a lease.

No no no no. I would not recommend a balloon loan for a vehicle, especially a vehicle that expensive. The only benefit to this is a low payment, and it's only about ~$100 less than a traditional lease. Only now after the 3 years - instead of walking away you need to cough up $36,000 (assuming 60% on $60k) or finance a 3-year old vehicle.

[fecurtis]

Just thought I'd follow up.

Closed the deal today as agreed with the dealership. Order put in for PDC delivery and I received a production number so hopefully my car will be built soon.

The wait officially begins.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by AgentCircus

That sounds high! Are you rolling over any negative equity? After all your options, what's the MSRP? And what's the agreed up on value of the vehicle (invoice minus incentives)? Input those numbers on http://www.leaseguide.com/calc.htm and see what you come up with.

Just to give an example: A 335i w/ an MSRP of $60,000 and a negotiated price of $55,325 (~Invoice less incentives, plus acquisition fee) comes out $681.75 after 4% tax. That's using a 60% residual and MF of .00130. Due at signing would obviously be your first payment plus government fees, etc.

I here you about getting it over with! I finally took delivery of my 335i M Sport yesterday after weeks of negotiations w/ 5 different dealerships. It'll definitely be worth the wait. This thing is a beast! Can't wait until the break-in period is over.

Perhaps my math is off then. The residual however is .59. The deal is done but I haven't yet received my payment estimate. I guess since I went in on a Saturday, financing with BMWFS wasn't yet finalized. I did speak to their finance guy who ran my credit and said he doesn't foresee an issue when getting approval from BMWFS.

I do not have any negative equity in my current Infiniti as it is 100% paid off, plus I already sold it...to my mother who wanted it.

I'm on my phone at the moment but once I'm at my computer I will put up the details of the agreed to price of the vehicle that I have and my calculation.

I did overestimate my DMV fees by about $200 so it ended up being cheaper than I expected.

EDIT:

Ok here it is:

MSRP of vehicle: $58,500
Discount: -5,131
Subtotal: $53,369

4% VA Sales Tax: $2,142.72
VA Registration and Title Fee: $55.75
Maryland Tire Recycling Fee: $4 (was told that the state of MD taxes each tire of every new car sold $1 to pay for tire recycling plants)
DMV Admin Fees, Tags, Transfer Title Lien: $12.00
Dealer Processing: $199.00

Total $55,782

The SA was insistent that I get invoice + $200 and since I think that's fair, I agreed. I wasn't going to throw a fuss over $200 plus his final number came pretty much in line with my estimates. But based on this, I assumed I'd pay a total of approximately $3,000 up front (fees, security deposit x1, and first month's payment included) and the number I come up with is around $750.

[mhanism]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Perhaps my math is off then. The residual however is .59. The deal is done but I haven't yet received my payment estimate. I guess since I went in on a Saturday, financing with BMWFS wasn't yet finalized. I did speak to their finance guy who ran my credit and said he doesn't foresee an issue when getting approval from BMWFS.

I do not have any negative equity in my current Infiniti as it is 100% paid off, plus I already sold it...to my mother who wanted it.

I'm on my phone at the moment but once I'm at my computer I will put up the details of the agreed to price of the vehicle that I have and my calculation.

I did overestimate my DMV fees by about $200 so it ended up being cheaper than I expected.

EDIT:

Ok here it is:

MSRP of vehicle: $58,500
Discount: -5,131
Subtotal: $53,369

4% VA Sales Tax: $2,142.72
VA Registration and Title Fee: $55.75
Maryland Tire Recycling Fee: $4 (was told that the state of MD taxes each tire of every new car sold $1 to pay for tire recycling plants)
DMV Admin Fees, Tags, Transfer Title Lien: $12.00
Dealer Processing: $199.00

Total $55,782

The SA was insistent that I get invoice + $200 and since I think that's fair, I agreed. I wasn't going to throw a fuss over $200 plus his final number came pretty much in line with my estimates. But based on this, I assumed I'd pay a total of approximately $3,000 up front (fees, security deposit x1, and first month's payment included) and the number I come up with is around $750.

Not a bad deal at all. Keep in mind, if incentives change or improve between now and delivery, you can opt for the better lease program.

Also, have you considered the MSD program (Multiple Security Deposit)? I've ONLY gone the MSD route, as you can effectively cut your MF by about a 1% by leaving a refundable deposit with BMW FS. I prefer this over leaving a traditional down deposit / cap reduction as you're paying less interest and will never see that cap reduction again.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by mhanism

Not a bad deal at all. Keep in mind, if incentives change or improve between now and delivery, you can opt for the better lease program.

Also, have you considered the MSD program (Multiple Security Deposit)? I've ONLY gone the MSD route, as you can effectively cut your MF by about a 1% by leaving a refundable deposit with BMW FS. I prefer this over leaving a traditional down deposit / cap reduction as you're paying less interest and will never see that cap reduction again.

I did consider that, the opportunity cost of that seems a bit high though since I can easily get more than a 1% return on that money elsewhere.

I'm just paying the fees up front and that's it. I don't mind paying interest on the car itself but paying interest on fees I will not do.